The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[3db]

I wonder if Paul Barton, founder of PSB ever ran into Dr Toole or asked for his help. Paul Barton and crew spent many hours at the NRC .

 

[PENG]

Regarding Room EQ schemes and tone controls..
IMHO..
These are (2) separate subjects.. Fixing, adjusting levels and correcting Room nodes are a function of the EQ software and apply to all sources. The purpose of tone controls are to provide a fine adjustment for correcting audio deficiencies within a specific program content.
Such as an:

• Older analog vinyl needing some bass boost or cut
• Analog tape playback with hiss
• Cinema sound track with weak mid-range voice dialog
• Cinema sound track with over emphasized treble
• Personal desire of the listener for some temporary frequency tweak

Just my $0.02...

I agree, but I didn't try to mix the two in my post did I?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We have worked with Dr.Toole for >20 years on various projects, many for Harman International.
IMHO..
He is without a doubt one of the most knowledgeable audio/acoustic experts anywhere. 1 of things many fail to understand is that Harman International is 1 of few audio companies that had significant R&D resources in loudspeakers (JBL, Revel, Infinity) and electronics (HK, JBL, Lexicon, Crown). He also is primary presenter @ the CEDIA shows, besides being a friendly, nice guy.. I have spent considerable time with Dr. Toole and staff, I can truly say he has been an incredible mentor especially for understanding some of the challenging objectives to design/build high resolution loudspeakers and electronics. He has written many AES papers and his book is an excellent reference. I will always cherish this incredible experience.
Here is a link for the subject book if U have a further interest...

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1524082202&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=dr.+floyd+toole


Just my $0.02...

And if you asked him whether he thinks separates sound better than AVR under similar typical conditions (especially if the AVR were used only as a Pre-pro), what would he say?

 

[Irvrobinson]

And if you asked him whether he thinks separates sound better than AVR under similar typical conditions (especially if the AVR were used only as a Pre-pro), what would he say?

Objection! Calls for speculation by the witness.

Sustained.

 

[M Code]

And if you asked him whether he thinks separates sound better than AVR under similar typical conditions (especially if the AVR were used only as a Pre-pro), what would he say?

In his book..

And if you asked him whether he thinks separates sound better than AVR under similar typical conditions (especially if the AVR were used only as a Pre-pro), what would he say?

No doubt about it, he would prefer components. AVRs can provide a convenient all-in-1-box but for max sonic performance separate components are the best system solution...

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No doubt about it, he would prefer components. AVRs can provide a convenient all-in-1-box but for max sonic performance separate components are the best system solution...

So he would frown upon the upcoming $8K Lexicon AVR and $5K Emotiva 250WPC AVR?

I've seen Floyd Toole responding to a few posts on Audioholics in the past regarding speakers.

Maybe one day he'll be back and I'll get to ask him about the electronics.

 

[M Code]

A key point about AVRs and separate components is that the newest audio and video technologies are typically released 1st in an AVR rather than a separate component...
I think the primary reason for this is that AVRs sell in significant quantities many times higher than separate components, giving a much better ROI to the brand..

Just my $0.02...

 

[M Code]

So he would frown upon the upcoming $8K Lexicon AVR and $5K Emotiva 250WPC AVR?

I've seen Floyd Toole responding to a few posts on Audioholics in the past regarding speakers.

Maybe one day he'll be back and I'll get to ask him about the electronics.

The Lexicon AVR is simply a rebadged Arcam..
Arcam was owned by the Canadian Harman distributor and they wanted to cash out, while Harman International needed an advanced AV design team since they phased out the Northridge product development team moving everything to Shenzen, China. Now all they do in China are BT speakers & headphones no more AVRs or separate components..

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A key point about AVRs and separate components is that the newest audio and video technologies are typically released 1st in an AVR rather than a separate component...
I think the primary reason for this is that AVRs sell in significant quantities many times higher than separate components, giving a much better ROI to the brand..

Just my $0.02...

Which means with the exception of the Marantz Pre-pros (with a new Pre-pro release about every year), Pre-pros are even more prone to being outdated than AVRs, which have new models released every year.

Of course, there are plenty of guys (like me) who don't really care about all these new features.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Lexicon AVR is simply a rebadged Arcam..
Arcam was owned by the Canadian Harman distributor and they wanted to cash out, while Harman International needed an advanced AV design team since they phased out the Northridge product development team moving everything to Shenzen, China. Now all they do in China are BT speakers & headphones no more AVRs or separate components..

Just my $0.02...

So the new flagship Lexicon AVR is the 2016 Arcam AVR850 Receiver?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/arcam-avr850-av-receiver-review-test-bench#cIwYE6wHHIvGq4l2.99

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 125.9 watts
1% distortion at 142.8 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 115.2 watts
1% distortion at 129.9 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 110.3 watts
1% distortion at 121.2 watts

Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 222.0 watts and 1% distortion at 248.8 watts.

The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –107.48 dBrA.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

That new (not out yet) Emotiva XMR-1 receiver looks interesting.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That new (not out yet) Emotiva XMR-1 receiver looks interesting.

It would be interested to see if this receiver can really output 250 WPC x 7Ch or will it be just 250WPC x 2 or 3 Ch and a lot less for the rest.

 

[Mikado463]

Pre-pros are even more prone to being outdated than AVRs, which have new models released every year.

in the multi channel realm perhaps but for those us in a two channel world for music, not at all. A great pre-amp will remain a great pre-amp.

 

[PENG]

Which means with the exception of the Marantz Pre-pros (with a new Pre-pro release about every year), Pre-pros are even more prone to being outdated than AVRs, which have new models released every year.

Of course, there are plenty of guys (like me) who don't really care about all these new features.

Marantz 8000 series prepros and Denon flag ship models seems to be updated about every two years. The Marantz 7000 series prepros and non flag ship Denon AVRs are definitely updated about every year. To me there is no point going with the 7000 series prepros, I did it once, a mistake and won't do it again.

 

[RichB]

Marantz 8000 series prepros and Denon flag ship models seems to be updated about every two years. The Marantz 7000 series prepros and non flag ship Denon AVRs are definitely updated about every year. To me there is no point going with the 7000 series prepros, I did it once, a mistake and won't do it again.

What was wrong with the 7000 series?

- Rich

 

[Andrein]

Is there a big difference between flagship prepro/avr and 1-2 steps down models? Slight diff in dac maybe. Anything else?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Marantz 8000 series prepros and Denon flag ship models seems to be updated about every two years. The Marantz 7000 series prepros and non flag ship Denon AVRs are definitely updated about every year. To me there is no point going with the 7000 series prepros, I did it once, a mistake and won't do it again.

I see the appeal going with the flagship Marantz 8000 Pre-pro series, especially for $2500 when Retail is $4K. But regarding sound quality, is there a difference at the end of the day?

So what if one DAC has a SNR of 130dB vs 125dB or THD of 0.0001% vs 0.0005% at the end of the day?

Unless the reason is more than just SQ, right?

I’m not giving up my Denon AVP-A1HDCI Pre-Pro any time soon.

 

[M Code]

Which means with the exception of the Marantz Pre-pros (with a new Pre-pro release about every year), Pre-pros are even more prone to being outdated than AVRs, which have new models released every year.

Of course, there are plenty of guys (like me) who don't really care about all these new features.

Note that Sound United(DEI Holdings) who now own D&M is in a better technical position that many audio brands as they can develop common circuit platforms for AVRs and separate processors since they have the engineering & marketing/sales expertise for both. As most audio brands either design/build AVRs or separate processors not both.. Another fringe benefit of designing/building both is a better royalty $ rate since this is based upon unit quantity and thus the separate processor can ride along getting the more favorable, lower AVR royalty $ rate. Note that for DTS, Dolby, Audyssey royalties this can mean up to a 40% savings based upon higher AVR sales quantities...

Just my $0.02....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is there a big difference between flagship prepro/avr and 1-2 steps down models? Slight diff in dac maybe. Anything else?

In a blind test, I doubt anyone is going to hear a difference.

 

[snakeeyes]

The concept of an avr with an amp being a better value over a marketed pre pro has been one of the core values on AH for as long as I remember. But nobody ever said when money is no object that having the best isn’t a wonderful thing.... In other news, I still have 20 year old banana plugs from monster cable the mortal enemy of AH, but they just fit so perfect on my Yamahas so I won’t replace them.