Incorporating MiniDSP With Audyssey XT32

[PENG]

As far as I know (limited knowledge) large, boosted dips just present other issues. If it’s brief, live with it. It’s likely just a placement issue. Captain obvious here. Toole would concur. I personally like to push and pull fq around so as to see and hear immediate response from EQ’s. Toole’s great for theory but there is enough experts on this site to handle most issues. The plus of messing with it yourself is demonstrably better than looking for that magic bullet in scientific journals...that is, for those of us w/o sound engineering degrees. IMHO.

I agree, that little improvements I got with the minidsp made no difference to me at all in real life listening. For now, I am using it in a two channel setup but I may still try it on the HT system again just for fun. I am just curious to know if Floyd did any experiment in the audible effect (or not) of narrow dips that are probably near impossible to eliminate in my room.

 

[Mitchibo]

I agree, that little improvements I got with the minidsp made no difference to me at all in real life listening. For now, I am using it in a two channel setup but I may still try it on the HT system again just for fun. I am just curious to know if Floyd did any experiment in the audible effect (or not) of narrow dips that are probably near impossible to eliminate in my room.

You want a copy of the book for free?

 

[Mitchibo]

I agree, that little improvements I got with the minidsp made no difference to me at all in real life listening. For now, I am using it in a two channel setup but I may still try it on the HT system again just for fun. I am just curious to know if Floyd did any experiment in the audible effect (or not) of narrow dips that are probably near impossible to eliminate in my room.

Just to be clear, Peng I’m not advocating bypassing the MiniDSP at all. Rather use it like a pocket knife and keep it with you. If you haven’t had ANY positive results then I’d suspect of its application. How could it not give you a better end product for HT?

 

[Pogre]

I'm really dialing it in for stereo listening. I haven't tried anything with ALL of my speakers.

This one's for mitch.

This one knocked my socks off! 1/6 smoothing looks freakin' amazing! I did a little more tinkering this morning with it and fixed that dip in the 100hz+ region.

Even at 1/12 it looks really good. I'm done now. I'm still interested in what @gene was talking about with summing the sub sections of my towers and bi amping. A little more clarification would be awesome tho since it appears I'm not the only one confused.

Finally the waterfall and spectrogram. I'm stopping here. At least until I figure out how to do the bi amp thing. These have never looked this good for me. The new furniture? One end of the couch used to be a lot closer to the left speaker/sub. I dunno. I sure like what I'm hearing tho!

 

[Mitchibo]

I'm really dialing it in for stereo listening. I haven't tried anything with ALL of my speakers.

This one's for mitch.

View attachment 22589
This one knocked my socks off! 1/6 smoothing looks freakin' amazing! I did a little more tinkering this morning with it and fixed that dip in the 100hz+ region.


View attachment 22590
Even at 1/12 it looks really good. I'm done now. I'm still interested in what @gene was talking about with summing the sub sections of my towers and bi amping. A little more clarification would be awesome since it appears I'm not the only one confused.

View attachment 22591 View attachment 22592
Finally the waterfall and spectrogram. I'm stopping here. At least until I figure out how to do the bi amp thing. These have never looked this good for me. The new furniture? One end of the couch used to be a lot closer to the left speaker/sub. I dunno. I sure like what I'm hearing tho!

This looks chicken-flippin’ amazing. Pat yourself on your the back and crack a beer. Good work.

 

[Pogre]

This looks chicken-flippin’ amazing. Pat yourself on your the back and crack a beer. Good work.

Ty, ty. Got all my stuff put away and listening to music now.

 

[PENG]

I guess I did adjust above 100hz. Turned a peak way down. Maybe I should look at that one again...

Just to be clear, Peng I’m not advocating bypassing the MiniDSP at all. Rather use it like a pocket knife and keep it with you. If you haven’t had ANY positive results then I’d suspect of its application. How could it not give you a better end product for HT?

Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT works quite well for me already so adding the minidsp only improved the FR by about 1 dB. Better looking graph for sure, but that 1 dB or so of improvement didn't make any difference for actual movies/music enjoyment. Again, as soon as I have that 2 channel system dialed in, I will put it back on the HT system and play with it some more.

 

[Pogre]

Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT works quite well for me already so adding the minidsp only improved the FR by about 1 dB. Better looking graph for sure, but that 1 dB or so of improvement didn't make any difference for actual movies/music enjoyment. Again, as soon as I have that 2 channel system dialed in, I will put it back on the HT system and play with it some more.

I had 2 big suck outs without the mini that Audyssey just wasn't getting. I do rely heavily on Audyssey for levels and distances, tho I did push the subs back 2 ft more after I tweaked the last time.

 

[agarwalro]

I'm still interested in what @gene was talking about with summing the sub sections of my towers and bi amping.

This is what Gene (or even ADTG) is referring to when talking about bi-amping the "lower" section of their towers to add the LFE. The following diagram represents the concept for routing signal:

When the L, R, LFE signals are available individually, this could be easily achieved in a stand alone DSP like Behringer DCX2496 or miniDSP. Appropriate filters on each of the DSP outputs help achieve the requisite EQ.

For the bi-amp ready speakers, AVR and miniDSP to do the above, follow these steps:

You will simply disconnect the jumpers on speakers, but, you'll need an external 2 ch amp to drive the "lower" sections.

In the AVR make sure the L, R speakers are set to Large and Subwoofer Mode is set to LFE+Mains.

From AVR pre-outs, run the L, R, Sub Out (any one sub out) to miniDSP inputs and from miniDSP outputs to subs and 2 ch amp. 2 ch amp output to "lower" section of tower.

That's it.

Now EQ the tower "lower" section just like they were a sub.

Note: Audyssey may change the L, R to Small. Be sure to change them back to Large.

Extra Special Note: Do not do this convoluted set up. Look at Gene's or ADTG's speakers. Their "lower" section are equivalent to Audioholic Bassholic Extreme rated subs. Yours are not.

If you decide to experiment, to get the experience, (IMHO, and you should experiment) implement this safety net for your towers. On the miniDSP, in the signal chain going to L, R, set a high pass of 80Hz. This will create the effect of having a crossover in the AVR at 80Hz and L, R set to Small. Lower it 5 Hz with each test run keeping a keen watch on the amount of distress you are causing the 2ch amp or "lower" section of tower.

 

[Pogre]

In that diagram, is that showing 3 inputs and 5 outputs? That's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. How to actually run all the cabling/splitters. I wouldn't be applying dsp to the "upper" sections, would I?

 

[agarwalro]

In that diagram, is that showing 3 inputs and 5 outputs? That's what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. How to actually run all the cabling/splitters. I wouldn't be applying dsp to the "upper" sections, would I?

The L, R "upper" is handled by the AVR.

AVR's L, R and Sub out 1 to miniDSP inputs.

miniDSP output:
L lower > ext. amp > speaker lower
R lower > ext. amp > speaker lower
Sub 1
Sub 2

 

[Pogre]

The L, R "upper" is handled by the AVR.

AVR's L, R and Sub out 1 to miniDSP inputs.

miniDSP output:
L lower > ext. amp > speaker lower
R lower > ext. amp > speaker lower
Sub 1
Sub 2

The clouds are parting a little now, thank you. I hadn't considered using the avr amp section for the uppers. That definitely makes things easier for routing. I was envisioning using my separate amp for all of the amplification.

Would I sum the l/r into one of the inputs on the mini with a y connector? Would level matching be an issue?

 

[agarwalro]

The clouds are parting a little now, thank you. I hadn't considered using the avr amp section for the uppers. That definitely makes things easier for routing. I was envisioning using my separate amp for all of the amplification.

. The AVR auto setup process is doing for all speakers what one does for subwoofers using external DSP. Audyssey is providing the DSP for tower "upper" section.

Would I sum the l/r into one of the inputs on the mini with a y connector? Would level matching be an issue?

No, Y's must never be used to sum signal. Never!
More here, http://www.rane.com/note109.html

Your choices are to get another miniDSP 2x4 or switch to a 4x10 or Behringer DCX2496 or any DSP that has 3 inputs. Alternately, you can sum L and R using a box like this box (no idea how it will affect audio quality),
https://www.amazon.com/Rolls-MX42-Stereo-Mini-Mixer/dp/B00102ZN40

I prefer the miniDSP 4x10 or Behringer DCX2496 route.

 

[PENG]

The clouds are parting a little now, thank you. I hadn't considered using the avr amp section for the uppers. That definitely makes things easier for routing. I was envisioning using my separate amp for all of the amplification.

Would I sum the l/r into one of the inputs on the mini with a y connector? Would level matching be an issue?

IHMO if your towers positions are relatively fixed, trying to integrate them smoothly with the subs is going to be very difficult. No harm trying, but I think what you have achieved now is really good, why not try some acoustic panels first? Even that, it is only necessary if you are a perfectionist. So far on this forum I have not seen better FR posted by anyone. Mine's are very close, but I am going to have to do a lot more tweaking to match your +/- 2 dB from 15-120 Hz, without the minidsp in the loop. It would have been just a guess based on my limited theoretical knowledge, but now I think I have enough hours on the minidsp to say this is my "educated" guess, that it is highly unlikely you can get better result going that route. Again, not because of anything other than the fact that you have achieved very good results already. That last dB or 2 of improvements will naturally be hit and miss. You may get that kind of variations if your mic is moved even an inch.

 

[Pogre]

. The AVR auto setup process is doing for all speakers what one does for subwoofers using external DSP. Audyssey is providing the DSP for tower "upper" section.

No, Y's must never be used to sum signal. Never!
More here, http://www.rane.com/note109.html

Your choices are to get another miniDSP 2x4 or switch to a 4x10 or Behringer DCX2496 or any DSP that has 3 inputs. Alternately, you can sum L and R using a box like this box (no idea how it will affect audio quality),
https://www.amazon.com/Rolls-MX42-Stereo-Mini-Mixer/dp/B00102ZN40

I prefer the miniDSP 4x10 or Behringer DCX2496 route.

Understood. Y connectors, BAD. Pogre's bass response, good.

You're from Pittsburgh? I have an aunt there. I was born and raised about a hundred miles north of pittsburgh (aka "the sticks"). Lived there for 20 years. I went to high school in DuBois. Ever heard of Shannondale?

 

[agarwalro]

IHMO if your towers positions are relatively fixed, trying to integrate them smoothly with the subs is going to be very difficult. No harm trying, but I think what you have achieved now is really good, why not try some acoustic panels first? Even that, it is only necessary if you are a perfectionist.

+1.
You're running into limitations from the law of diminishing returns. Any improvement to reduce energy dissipation time in bass bands, flatten linear response, get deeper bass, etc. will require exponentially more resources.

If at all you choose to work on improving the sound, the best bang for buck will be "stealth" room treatments to reduce bass energy dissipation time.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Play this.

Pogre curve
-20
Enjoy!

 

[Pogre]

IHMO if your towers positions are relatively fixed, trying to integrate them smoothly with the subs is going to be very difficult. No harm trying, but I think what you have achieved now is really good, why not try some acoustic panels first? Even that, it is only necessary if you are a perfectionist. So far on this forum I have not seen better FR posted by anyone. Mine's are very close, but I am going to have to do a lot more tweaking to match your +/- 2 dB from 15-120 Hz, without the minidsp in the loop. It would have been just a guess based on my limited theoretical knowledge, but now I think I have enough hours on the minidsp to say this is my "educated" guess, that it is highly unlikely you can get better result going that route. Again, not because of anything other than the fact that you have achieved very good results already. That last dB or 2 of improvements will naturally be hit and miss. You may get that kind of variations if your mic is moved even an inch.

Okay, I got it. Leave wonderful bass response alone. I have a feeling you're absolutely right. Experimenting more at this point could just mess up what I have and I'd be kicking myself for not leaving well enough alone.

 

[agarwalro]

Pogre's bass response, good.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Okay, I got it. Leave wonderful bass response alone. I have a feeling you're absolutely right. Experimenting more at this point could just mess up what I have and I'd be kicking myself for not leaving well enough alone.

See my above post.
Yes, I absolutely agree. You’re towers are made to operate just exactly how they are. Remember that can of worms about 40 pages back? I think that’s what you’d have. A mess... Now it’s time maybe to look at the upper ranges. I know most room treatments are ugly(and bass traps are usually huge), but some are available that can look like art.