Incorporating MiniDSP With Audyssey XT32

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Here are the falls for Sub only and 7.1 (5 subs in total) channel, REW default setting.

7.1 channel.jpg
7.1 channel Audyssey OFF.jpg
Subs Only.jpg
7.1 channel WaterFall.jpg
 
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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Looks like 80. It's a subwoofer only measurement, no speakers. AVR crossovers are usually 24 or 12 dB slopes.

I’m not sure the reason for posting my room dims and their predicted modes. Do you know if REW can determine this and reveal an applicable solution based of miced room measurements? I did not say that REW failed in providing proper solutions, sorry if you had that idea.

I feel that since you are the one making a claim about what @porgre should do, and disputing sight unseen what he has done, even while admitting that you don’t have full knowledge what he has done, that YOU should post said screen shots of YOUR processes. Start with your own solution path.

IIRC this subject has been broached in two separate threads where, yes, I have been quite critical of your claims/statements/ and overall approach, but I would hardly call two threads a whole forum. Some of my criticisms have indeed been too hostile, and I apologize for that.
If this is a graph of a subwoofer rolling off at 12 or 24 dB per octave, then yes, there is something not right here because that subwoofer is not rolling off in any hurry and is going to continue carrying on and possibly canceling out some of what the towers are producing.

I'm sorry you feel I am making too many unfounded claims, but in my last post I asked you to prove it. Lets use YOUR room, and demonstrate the effectiveness of REW, who's automated processes ARE, your recommended solution. If you aren't willing to use REW to prove my claims wrong, then you're not doing much of anything, except arguing for the sake of arguing.

I offered to help you, and given the ease of your mostly self contained listening space, it should be quite easy, even for a free program off the internet, no? I suggest a simple, tape measure based method that is quoted in a book from a Doctor with whom this forum claims to hold in high regard. So lets analyze your methods. Are you here to seek improvements, or are you here to prove your innate set up abilities? Pogre is still seeking improvement, so is too much to ask that you admit that, perhaps, REW can't do it all?


Let's say I measure everything in my room and you predict all of my room modes. Then I measure with rew and the graph correlates with the predictions. What would I do differently outside of eq'ing the highs and lows? My subs and towers are pretty much stuck where they are.
I've been very vocal about trying to reign in this effort to EQ all of the highs and lows. Some of them are just are, and not actually a problem! That's why you need to know what influence the room is having. You bought a $50 textbook full of graphs, and not even the anechoic response of the JBL M2 measures like the graphs you've posted. So please do not feel that I am so presumptuous as to suggest that what you have done is not resulting in accurate reproduction. The fact that you're still seeking improvements further proves this.

With your subs and towers stuck where they are, there will be a limit to how good of performance you can achieve. But you have been convinced that DSP will solve every problem, despite the 500 pages of knowledge you have that explain very clearly what DSP can and cannot do. I've spent quite enough time with this, so if you want try it, please do, and I'll be there to help.

But this back and forth of the validity of my claims, that are quoted in a textbook that you own, has got to stop.

"To compute the frequencies at which axial standing waves occur, simply measure the distance between the walls, and divide that number into the speed of sound in whatever units the measurements were done." 'Sound Reproduction'

What am I not explaining from this statement, clearly?


@TheWarrior, this is the question that has been asked before(by me also). It’s not that pogre isn’t asking, see quote above. It’s that there hasn’t been a clear solution path. Even an arbitrary one would do. For example, if you have a low tire, connect air supply, and inflate to proper pressure level. So, knowing where the modes are when you can’t move your LP, or gear will be addressed by doing what? That’s the question. A solution path with arbitrary numbers is fine. We’re just looking for the path.
The path is to understand what your room is doing to the measurements. This thread is 30 pages long, and yet, everyone is still looking for better solutions than what REW offers. I suggest a data gathering method, and I've spent more time trying to argue the validity of that method than actually helping people utilize it.

If REW can predict your modes, then you're all set, right?

No? Then give it a try!

For your graph, I've made it pretty clear that without knowing your room's dimensions and setup, any recommendation is purely guessing. Provide complete data on the room and I'll try to help!



Can anyone describe the standard resolution of their waterfalls in frequency vs time that allows them to compare graphs to others, even in other rooms, that define waterfall's usefulness?

Floyd couldn't, so I don't know why you guys are still trying.


Here are the falls for Sub only and 7.1 (5 subs in total) channel, REW default setting.

View attachment 22525 View attachment 22526 View attachment 22527

PENG, same issue - lovely graphs, no details.


If the room is in control of what you hear at bass frequencies, why is no one providing information about their room?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
So. I am going to get out my tape measure when I get home from gymnastics.(daughter). I could stand to remind myself of my homes dims anyway. In the meantime. I’m still curious as to the process, since like pogre, my positions are fixed. If an explanation can’t be made with arbitrary numbers, even in a hypothetical situation, to understand what to do, I’m calling bs. I also tried to post my mdat for perusal and interpretation but it’s too big. I’d love to know what to do there.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
So. I am going to get out my tape measure when I get home from gymnastics.(daughter). I could stand to remind myself of my homes dims anyway. In the meantime. I’m still curious as to the process, since like pogre, my positions are fixed. If an explanation can’t be made with arbitrary numbers, even in a hypothetical situation, to understand what to do, I’m calling bs. I also tried to post my mdat for perusal and interpretation but it’s too big. I’d love to know what to do there.
Awesome! High res measurements with no EQ are the first step. Next is to know your rooms dimensions, and the relation of ears to loudspeaker/subwoofers. Room furnishings are helpful to know as well.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I've been very vocal about trying to reign in this effort to EQ all of the highs and lows. Some of them are just are, and not actually a problem! That's why you need to know what influence the room is having. You bought a $50 textbook full of graphs, and not even the anechoic response of the JBL M2 measures like the graphs you've posted. So please do not feel that I am so presumptuous as to suggest that what you have done is not resulting in accurate reproduction. The fact that you're still seeking improvements further proves this.

With your subs and towers stuck where they are, there will be a limit to how good of performance you can achieve. But you have been convinced that DSP will solve every problem, despite the 500 pages of knowledge you have that explain very clearly what DSP can and cannot do. I've spent quite enough time with this, so if you want try it, please do, and I'll be there to help.

But this back and forth of the validity of my claims, that are quoted in a textbook that you own, has got to stop.

"To compute the frequencies at which axial standing waves occur, simply measure the distance between the walls, and divide that number into the speed of sound in whatever units the measurements were done." 'Sound Reproduction'

What am I not explaining from this statement, clearly?
Let's say I measure everything in my room and you predict all of my room modes. Then I measure with rew and the graph correlates with the predictions. What would I do differently outside of eq'ing the highs and lows? My subs and towers are pretty much stuck where they are.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Let's say I measure everything in my room and you predict all of my room modes. Then I measure with rew and the graph correlates with the predictions. What would I do differently outside of eq'ing the highs and lows? My subs and towers are pretty much stuck where they are.
I am going to try acoustic panels instead of beating the dead horse to get that last couple dB of smoothness and other issues. Not that my room sounds bad, but I am just curious to know if I can do better with room treatment. One thing I can agree with TheWarrier is that REQ software won't fix everything. One thing I disagree with him is that I believe REQ software, including Audyssey, can do a lot to alleviate some of the known room acoustic issues.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I am going to try acoustic panels instead of beating the dead horse to get that last couple dB of smoothness and other issues. Not that my room sounds bad, but I am just curious to know if I can do better with room treatment. One thing I can agree with TheWarrier is that REQ software won't fix everything. One thing I disagree with him is that I believe REQ software, including Audyssey, can do a lot to alleviate some of the known room acoustic issues.
I could maybe consider something like that, but what I have is really very good now. All I'm trying to do is get it to where my towers are handling a little more bass and the subs don't have to be crossed over so high. It's more about being neurotic than it is trying to improve anything.

One thing I discovered just now that's interesting, I cut and terminated an extra set of cables anticipating trying to isolate the sub section of my towers to eq with the subs. Yesterday I straight up passive bi amped my towers just for shits n giggles and left it that way for the day. Something wasn't right. The imaging was off. Annoyingly off. I just pulled the extra cables out and put the jumpers back in. No imaging issues. Is that a thing? It surprised me because all of the amplication was coming from the same amp.

*Edit: Thank you for that link! :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I could maybe consider something like that, but what I have is really very good now. All I'm trying to do is get it to where my towers are handling a little more bass and the subs don't have to be crossed over so high. It's more about being neurotic than it is trying to improve anything.

One thing I discovered just now that's interesting, I cut and terminated an extra set of cables anticipating trying to isolate the sub section of my towers to eq with the subs. Yesterday I straight up passive bi amped my towers just for shits n giggles and left it that way for the day. Something wasn't right. The imaging was off. Annoyingly off. I just pulled the extra cables out and put the jumpers back in. No imaging issues. Is that a thing? It surprised me because all of the amplication was coming from the same amp.

*Edit: Thank you for that link! :)
Passive biamping should not affect imaging if level matched and there are no phase reversals created anywhere.
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
If this is a graph of a subwoofer rolling off at 12 or 24 dB per octave, then yes, there is something not right here because that subwoofer is not rolling off in any hurry and is going to continue carrying on and possibly canceling out some of what the towers are producing.

I'm sorry you feel I am making too many unfounded claims, but in my last post I asked you to prove it. Lets use YOUR room, and demonstrate the effectiveness of REW, who's automated processes ARE, your recommended solution. If you aren't willing to use REW to prove my claims wrong, then you're not doing much of anything, except arguing for the sake of arguing.

I offered to help you, and given the ease of your mostly self contained listening space, it should be quite easy, even for a free program off the internet, no? I suggest a simple, tape measure based method that is quoted in a book from a Doctor with whom this forum claims to hold in high regard. So lets analyze your methods. Are you here to seek improvements, or are you here to prove your innate set up abilities? Pogre is still seeking improvement, so is too much to ask that you admit that, perhaps, REW can't do it all?




I've been very vocal about trying to reign in this effort to EQ all of the highs and lows. Some of them are just are, and not actually a problem! That's why you need to know what influence the room is having. You bought a $50 textbook full of graphs, and not even the anechoic response of the JBL M2 measures like the graphs you've posted. So please do not feel that I am so presumptuous as to suggest that what you have done is not resulting in accurate reproduction. The fact that you're still seeking improvements further proves this.

With your subs and towers stuck where they are, there will be a limit to how good of performance you can achieve. But you have been convinced that DSP will solve every problem, despite the 500 pages of knowledge you have that explain very clearly what DSP can and cannot do. I've spent quite enough time with this, so if you want try it, please do, and I'll be there to help.

But this back and forth of the validity of my claims, that are quoted in a textbook that you own, has got to stop.

"To compute the frequencies at which axial standing waves occur, simply measure the distance between the walls, and divide that number into the speed of sound in whatever units the measurements were done." 'Sound Reproduction'

What am I not explaining from this statement, clearly?




The path is to understand what your room is doing to the measurements. This thread is 30 pages long, and yet, everyone is still looking for better solutions than what REW offers. I suggest a data gathering method, and I've spent more time trying to argue the validity of that method than actually helping people utilize it.

If REW can predict your modes, then you're all set, right?

No? Then give it a try!

For your graph, I've made it pretty clear that without knowing your room's dimensions and setup, any recommendation is purely guessing. Provide complete data on the room and I'll try to help!



Can anyone describe the standard resolution of their waterfalls in frequency vs time that allows them to compare graphs to others, even in other rooms, that define waterfall's usefulness?

Floyd couldn't, so I don't know why you guys are still trying.





PENG, same issue - lovely graphs, no details.


If the room is in control of what you hear at bass frequencies, why is no one providing information about their room?

Then you do not know how to read that graph, but I’m not going to argue the color of the sky with you.

Screen Shot 2017-10-04 at 8.03.05 PM.png

It’s your responsibility to substantiate your solution path with your own evidence, not mine to counter with my own. Sorry, but that’s logic 101. I’m completely comfortable with my approach and am not seeking anyone’s scrutiny, especially yours. I’ve asked questions about your assumptions as to what REW can do, and you refuse to answer them, and now are seeking to shift the burden of proof.

Myself and others find your approach largely nonsensical or unnecessary. Myself and others have found your criticisms of others work built on incredulous and incorrect assumptions. Myself and others have found that your interpretation of your sole source (Dr. Toole) to be poorly understood, and even irrelevant; these include those equally or more familiar with his work, and the work of other researchers.
 
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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I think this article by JA is worth reading even for TheWarrior, if only because he quoted Toole and Olive too.:D
I would just add that on page 4 when talking about the audibility of phase, it can be audible below transition in the form of you can or cannot hear something due to the wavelengths involved. (seating position is either in phase or out at a certain frequency)

This is why I ask phase be included in these graphs since we're talking about subs.

As for your decision on absorption, what frequencies are you trying to absorb? If you crossover at 100 hz, those wavelengths are about 11 feet, going all the way to 56 feet @ 20 hz. So if a large peak is unable to be controlled with placement or DSP, you're gonna need some heavy absorption at those frequencies. Not even a 4in thick panel is going to help - just trying to save you some time/ money!
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I could maybe consider something like that, but what I have is really very good now. All I'm trying to do is get it to where my towers are handling a little more bass and the subs don't have to be crossed over so high. It's more about being neurotic than it is trying to improve anything.

One thing I discovered just now that's interesting, I cut and terminated an extra set of cables anticipating trying to isolate the sub section of my towers to eq with the subs. Yesterday I straight up passive bi amped my towers just for shits n giggles and left it that way for the day. Something wasn't right. The imaging was off. Annoyingly off. I just pulled the extra cables out and put the jumpers back in. No imaging issues. Is that a thing? It surprised me because all of the amplication was coming from the same amp.

*Edit: Thank you for that link! :)
Just in case you haven't tried - might I suggest trying again with the towers run full range? You've got the interior volume to justify!

As for repeating your question, you've got a text book in front of you. If you'd like to provide me with more data on your room, I am happy to help. I firmly believe that you were led astray to use DSP inappropriately to achieve a specific look to your response graph(flat). The knowledge in that textbook will explain over many pages, which is why I am not going in to more detail, about how and why that is. But you've gotta give me numbers to crunch!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Passive biamping should not affect imaging if level matched and there are no phase reversals created anywhere.
That's what I thought too, so I double checked to be certain. Everything was wired correctly. Red to red, black to black. I didn't expect anything at all. This was very noticeable. Even moreso when I removed the extra cable and put the jumpers back on. This is the first time I tried bi amping them at all. Vocals and instruments were all over the place. Sometimes it sounded like the singer was on both sides of me when he should have been dead center up front.

Weird.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
That's what I thought too, so I double checked to be certain. Everything was wired correctly. Red to red, black to black. I didn't expect anything at all. This was very noticeable. Even moreso when I removed the extra cable and put the jumpers back on. This is the first time I tried bi amping them at all. Vocals and instruments were all over the place. Sometimes it sounded like the singer was on both sides of me when he should have been dead center up front.

Weird.
Off hand, that sounds like some funny phase issues. Above my pay grade though...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Just in case you haven't tried - might I suggest trying again with the towers run full range? You've got the interior volume to justify!

As for repeating your question, you've got a text book in front of you. If you'd like to provide me with more data on your room, I am happy to help. I firmly believe that you were led astray to use DSP inappropriately to achieve a specific look to your response graph(flat). The knowledge in that textbook will explain over many pages, which is why I am not going in to more detail, about how and why that is. But you've gotta give me numbers to crunch!
Nah, just answer my question. If you even know what you're talking about then that should be easy.

Otherwise this thread is about using a MiniDSP and/or Audyssey together. I'm not even a little bit interested in measuring parallel surfaces in my room. Any more posts shoving it down my throat is just straight up spam and I'd appreciate it if you stop. :)
 
Mitchibo

Mitchibo

Audioholic
That's what I thought too, so I double checked to be certain. Everything was wired correctly. Red to red, black to black. I didn't expect anything at all. This was very noticeable. Even moreso when I removed the extra cable and put the jumpers back on. This is the first time I tried bi amping them at all. Vocals and instruments were all over the place. Sometimes it sounded like the singer was on both sides of me when he should have been dead center up front.

Weird.
This seem silly but could you provide pictures of how it was set up? In theory it’s supposed to sound a bit clearer.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
This seem silly but could you provide pictures of how it was set up? In theory it’s supposed to sound a bit clearer.
I don't have it that way any more...

I used y splitters to split the 2 l/r signals out from my receiver to 4 different inputs on my amp. Then I hooked 1 channel to each l/r upper and lower binding posts to the corresponding channels after removing the jumpers. Pretty standard stuff.

20171004_184438.jpg

Picture 2 more rca's and 2 more sets of high level speaker wire.
 
Mitchibo

Mitchibo

Audioholic
I don't have it that way any more...

I used y splitters to split the 2 l/r signals out from my receiver to 4 different inputs on my amp. Then I hooked 1 channel to each l/r upper and lower binding posts to the corresponding channels after removing the jumpers. Pretty standard stuff.

View attachment 22545
Picture 2 more rca's and 2 more sets of high level speaker wire.
Well its not the pre-amp, its not the power amp, its not a cable issue, so that leaves some sort of XO mumbo-jumbo as the issue. Bifurcating your towers' internals seems to be the only unknown.
 
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