Give me an Amp Crash Course

[killdozzer]

It seem my listening limits will come to my aid. A medium size room, no new year's eve parties, a lot of neighbors around. So it's more about quality then high volumes. This is what also drawn me towards LS50, if it really needs a 25 - 100W amp, I have a lot wider choice. A good 2x80 should be quite fine and strong enough for that "10 o'clock" listening.

@AcuDefTechGuy not really a 2ch system, I'm going for 2.1, so if you can set up the crossover for subs on that display as you said then it's fine. But as I said, I do own a TV, it's just sitting there unhooked. I can use it if I need to just to set things up an remove it afterwards.

If it comes down to a choice of a built-in DAC vs. an high-pass filter for speakers, I would choose the DAC.

I went on to a bunch of other forums to read about other peoples experience and opinions and it's funny how only when you're after something that's not usual/ordinary request do you see how it's hard to get it.

I even found people explaining how old-school audiophiles are not fond of 2.1 option at all, maybe people like me are a minority at this moment in time. I found all what you were talking about; AVR's leading in the race of good bass management (since stereo buffs don't want 2.1 apparently), being more powerful for less money etc. You can find quite a few DAC/amps (although much more as headphone amps) as long as you're not expecting anything more then a pre-out for a sub. As soon as you start asking for a DAC/amp/bass management every site and everybody starts to redirect you towards AVR's (and not even stereo receivers come close to AVR's, remember the ones that had only a tuner added to an itngr. amp?).

If I understood what you all said about bass management, this is also a possible solution, is it not:

is this a sub that first takes all the signal from your amp and then does the dividing?


This is more for the sake of understanding. I don't know how many subs like these could I find.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You can set up crossover, speaker configuration, subwoofer configuration, speaker & subwoofer channel level & distance, surround modes, source select, etc. on just the front LCD of all the Denon AVR I've used.

The only thing you will need a monitor for are things like Audyssey Automatic Room Correction, Bluetooth setup.

I would recommend to most people to just get an AVR like the Denon X3000 series. MSRP is $1K, but watch for sales on Amazon for $500. A few months ago, the X3100 was $500. Now it is $675 on Amazon. Keep watch on the X3100 & X3200. When they release the X3300, the price on the X3200 will probably be $500.

 

[Swerd]

It seem my listening limits will come to my aid. A medium size room, no new year's eve parties, a lot of neighbors around. So it's more about quality then high volumes. This is what also drawn me towards LS50, if it really needs a 25 - 100W amp, I have a lot wider choice. A good 2x80 should be quite fine and strong enough for that "10 o'clock" listening.

Finding an amplifier with enough power to drive the LS50s will not be difficult. 2×80 should work well. This is by far the most important feature of any amplifier. All the other features, that we have spent too much time discussing, can be considered as useful but secondary.

Did you mention all the music producing devices you plan to use with this system? It is important that the integrated amp you choose have enough input jacks to accommodate all of them. This should include phones or computers as well as the traditional music sources. In that regard, the Yamahas provide plenty, and that Peachtree does not. It is worth your time to write down a list of these, and examine a photo an amp's rear panel to make sure there are enough input jacks. Make sure there is room for future growth. For example, the 2×85 watt Yamaha A-S501:

I even found people explaining how old-school audiophiles are not fond of 2.1 option at all, maybe people like me are a minority at this moment in time…

I personally believe this is because they are old dogs who don't want to learn new tricks. Old-school stereos allow you to simply attach your CD player and speakers, turn it on and hear the music. The new-school AVRs are essentially computers and are not so simple when you first use them. You must tell the computer, in some detail, what you have. This occurs during the set-up routine that you must first go through. In earlier AVRs this set-up process was done manually by the owner. The manufacturers found that many owners of AVRs did this poorly or simply ignored it. As a result, they worked to develop automated set-up processes (you may have encountered the name Audyssey). If you have never had an AVR, this whole process can seem foreign and unnecessary.

Nearly all self-powered subwoofers have bass management abilities similar to the examples you showed. I would avoid buying a subwoofer with such a small 6½" (16.5cm) woofer, instead look for at least 10" (25.4cm). It is possible to first buy speakers and an amp, and buy a subwoofer at a later time. There are many subwoofers available at wide variety of prices, and shopping for one is another confusing task. Many people seem to believe they are the most important component of all, and others (like myself) believe they supplement the sound from the main speakers. They add bass that the main speakers cannot produce, but they cannot transform poor quality speakers into excellent ones. Similar to the Madonna – Lady GaGa problem .

 

[lovinthehd]

Another point for the avr with bass management is that the sub does the heavy lifting, so the avr's amp gets a lighter load from the speakers.

I would disagree that "most" have this feature, I have several commercial subs without a high pass available and in reading specs on several I can think of they don't have it either so a careful review of the features/specs is in order if you're going to look to a sub for bass management.

In the "super" 6.5" imitation sub it has a fixed high pass of 100hz (with the stated slopes), if that would do it for you then this sub's bass management perhaps could work. As was said, though, this sub barely gets to the low 30s let alone down to at least down to 20hz, if not better, like a real sub should (IMO ).

 

[killdozzer]

No, I know it is small, but since it has in's and out's it seems that it does bass management for an amp that has no management of its own? is this right; you send your left and right to the sub first and then from the sub it goes into your main speakers, but only midd's and highs continue towards the main speakers and lows are left for the sub.

I'm not thinking about getting that one, but is this an example of a sub that does what you would hope for in your amp - separating highs from lows?

killdozzer

 

[Swerd]

No, I know it is small, but since it has in's and out's it seems that it does bass management for an amp that has no management of its own? is this right; you send your left and right to the sub first and then from the sub it goes into your main speakers, but only midd's and highs continue towards the main speakers and lows are left for the sub.

I'm not thinking about getting that one, but is this an example of a sub that does what you would hope for in your amp - separating highs from lows?

Yes, you understand correctly.

 

[lovinthehd]

No, I know it is small, but since it has in's and out's it seems that it does bass management for an amp that has no management of its own? is this right; you send your left and right to the sub first and then from the sub it goes into your main speakers, but only midd's and highs continue towards the main speakers and lows are left for the sub.

I'm not thinking about getting that one, but is this an example of a sub that does what you would hope for in your amp - separating highs from lows?

killdozzer

Yes, it is a form of bass management, albeit limited (and avrs are somewhat limited as well, but offer more than this simple form). Also note that it depends which connection mode as to what the slope for the high pass filter has. You can connect this sub through the high/speaker level inputs/outputs in line with your speaker wires, or you can use a pre-amp with a tape/processor loop with the low/line level inputs.

 

[ski2xblack]

Tape/processor loops wouldn't work. In order for system volume control, he would need to implement bass management downstream from the volume control in the signal path, which means either a pre-out/main-in loop (e.g. those NADs, the top level Yamaha integrated amps and receivers, and whatever else has this old-school feature), or separates. Tape outs and processor loops are fixed, unattenuated output, and upstream from the master volume control in the signal path.

 

[lovinthehd]

Tape/processor loops wouldn't work. In order for system volume control, he would need to go distal to the volume control in the signal path with the bass management, which means either a pre-out/main-in loop (e.g. those NADs, the top level Yamaha integrated amps and receivers, and whatever else has this old-school feature), or separates. Tape outs and processor loops are fixed, unattenuated output.

Sorry, that's the only experience I have, with my old 2ch pre-amps and their loops like that. Didn't mean for the abbreviated versions....altho not sure what you mean by "go to distal to the volume control".

 

[killdozzer]

I've joined an UK forum to see whether some members mght know brands available in Europe that might suit me. I wanted to ask, if I go for the option with a sub that works as an external crossover - the one that has both high and low pass filter - what would be the signal path? What does my amp has to have on the back, is it pre-out/main-in? For example; CD to Amp to (from pre-out) Sub to(back to main-in) Amp to (out of the mains speakers out) Speakers - is that right? My amp should have pre-out/main-in.

 

[Steve81]

I wanted to ask, if I go for the option with a sub that works as an external crossover - the one that has both high and low pass filter - what would be the signal path? What does my amp has to have on the back, is it pre-out/main-in?

Yes, the pre-out/main-in would be required on the integrated amp. Connections would look like this, using an SB13 plate amp as pictured:

Integrated "Pre-Out" To Subwoofer "Low Level Inputs"
Subwoofer "Low Level Outputs" to Integrated "Main In"

A total of 4 RCA cables would be required.

Here the high pass and low pass filters would be set via the "Feature Control Knob" and a digital display.

 

[killdozzer]

Found one!!

A performer AND a looker
CD player, DAC, preamp, amp, tuner, network player, USB, ipod/iphone dock, sub out x2 (but with serious specs)

If anyone has some cash he's stumbling upon, I am a mere 3000$ short!

T+A E-Serie Music Receiver

Specifications


Nominal output per channel

2 x 160 Watt into 4 Ohm, 2 x 100 Watt into 8 Ohm

Peak output

2 x 220 Watt into 4 Ohm, 2 x 150 Watt into 8 Ohm

Frequency response

+/- 3dB: 1 Hz - 60 kHz

Total harmonic distortion

< 0,01%

Intermodulation

< 0,01%

Channel seperations

> 80 dB

Inputs


Analogue inputs

3 x high-level (RCA) 250 mVeff ... 2,5 Veff / 20 kOhm

Digital inputs

SP/DIF (16 - 24-bit): 3 x coax (192 kHz), 2 x TOS-Link (96 kHz)2x USB for iPod and Harddisk

Outputs


Analogue outputs

Pre-amplifier output, Line Out, Tape Out

Headphones

> 50 Ohms

Digital outputs

1x coax, IEC 60958 (CDDA/LPCM)

CD-Player

CD/DA, CD-R, CD-RW, CD Text

Streaming Client formats

MP3 , WMA, AAC, OGG-Vorbis, FLAC (192/24 via LAN) and WAV (192/24 via LAN) with gapless playback (where supported by server)

Playlists

PLS, M3U, ASX (if supported by server)

Supported Media servers

UPnP 1.1, UPnP AV, Microsoft Windows Media Connect Server (MS DRM10), vTuner Internet Radio Service, DLNA compatible servers

Standards

DLNA, UPnP, MS-DRM10, Designed to play Plays for sure guidelines

Features

Web server (remote PC Web browser control), vTuner. Internet Radio Station database (automatic updates over Internet)

Interfaces

USB 2.0 for Harddisk, iPod with control system and display, LAN, W-LAN, RS 232 Update and control interface

Radio

FM Radio 87,5 - 108 MHz, overload damping >40 dB, RDS functions, station lists, station memory (presets)

D/A converter

32-bit, 384 kHz Sigma Delta, 8-times oversampling, double-mono

Analogue filter

Phase-linear 3rd order Bessel filter, 100 kSps

Frequency response

2 Hz - 20 kHz 44.1 kSps

2 Hz - 22 kHz 48.0 kSps

2 Hz - 40 kHz 96.0 kSps

2 Hz - 80 kHz 196.0 kSps

Total harmonic distortion

< 0,001 %

Signal : noise ratio

109 dB

Channel seperation

106 dB

Dimensions Hx W x D

12 x 44 x 39 cm (4.7 x 17.6 x 15.6 inch)

Weight

10kg (22lbs)

Finishes

black case with silver side panels


silver case with black side panels


black case with black side panels


silver case with silver side panels

Accesories

Includes F 100 system remote control, WLAN aerial, FM aerial

control interface

RS 232 for update and control system

Mains power

220-230 V or 110-115 V, 50-60 Hz, 300 Watt

optional accessories

iPod docking station


FD100 bi-directional radio remote control handset with screen


metal ir remote control FM100


GW E internal radio receiver for MUSIC RECEIVER

 

[KenM10759]

So with your speakers due to arrive today, what have you got to use to hear them for the first time?

 

[killdozzer]

So with your speakers due to arrive today, what have you got to use to hear them for the first time?

I'll have a borrowed NAD from a friend. It's an old amp and won't be doing anything but powering. I have the cheapest Philips DVD player that can play audio CD's. Mostly it will be my laptop connected from 3.5 to L/R RCA.

It is somewhat weak, the NAD (at 35W x2 into 8ohm), but better than nothing. In a couple of days I might buy a second hand amp for 120$ as this will not set me back too much so I can return the amp. Then I'll start building the bank again for something more serious. There's a cheap Harman Kardon for something like 120$ that has 2x45Wpc into 8ohms. That will have to do for a few months.

Although there's a lot of cheap Crown amps in the ads where you get a lot of power but nothing else. I'm seriously considering buying something just for power and then getting a more versatile preamp. But this is an option only if it's cheaper than a good new receiver. Otherwise I'll be probably admitting defeat and buying a receiver. Perhaps I can hide it in a closet or something, I don't know.

I'm not surrendering yet. If I decide to get a receiver then no other compromise but the looks I'll agree upon. It HAS to do it all and the cheap ones don't actually, because the USB port is no good if it only takes memory sticks and apple products. I have to be able to plug my laptop directly into the receiver.

First of all I don't like apple products and don't use them. And second, if every time I want to listen to my somewhat vast digital collection, I have to copy it to the stick or external memory of some sort and then plug it in the receiver, then the receiver is out.

This is also one of my upcoming questions; can you use HDMI to connect your laptop with the receiver to play only sound (mp3, flac, wav or anything)?

killdozzer

 

[Alex2507]

I would consider Crown if I was in the amp market. The LS50's don't look like they want to kill any amps with their impedance curve but be sure to listen for distortion as you turn it up. When it starts sounding a little rattled, back it off 3 db. That's how I find the max should it need finding.

When the music sounds right, the gear becomes less fascinating by comparison.

 

[Steve81]

This is also one of my upcoming questions; can you use HDMI to connect your laptop with the receiver to play only sound (mp3, flac, wav or anything)?

It should work without any major hiccups. FWIW, technically there's a video feed anyway, as your laptop treats HDMI as another monitor.

 

[Swerd]

A performer AND a looker
CD player, DAC, preamp, amp, tuner, network player, USB, ipod/iphone dock, sub out x2 (but with serious specs)

After quickly reading about the T+A receiver it seems very expensive at about $3000.

It has a built-in CD player and a radio receiver. You already have a DVD player which will play any CD, so there is no need for another. Do you intend to listen to radio?

The appearance of the amp/receiver is a matter of personal taste. Balance that against cost.

Compare the T+A to the Yamaha A-S801. At $900, in the USA, it appears to have the same power as the T+A. I don't know if the 801 is available in Europe, but I think it's the same as the A-S701, with an added USB input and a more modern DAC. For another $50, you can buy a Blue Tooth wireless device, YBA-11. If I understood all I read about that, it would allow you to run your PC via a USB cable, or wirelessly if you get the Blue Tooth adapter. Can your laptop do Blue Tooth wireless?

To be honest, all the other digital interfaces listed by T+A didn't help me understand if it can work with your PC. There are too many variables on the computer side.

$950 vs. $3000 is an easy decision.

When your speakers arrive, ENJOY! The NAD should to drive them well enough.

 

[Don G.]

No, I know it is small, but since it has in's and out's it seems that it does bass management for an amp that has no management of its own? is this right; you send your left and right to the sub first and then from the sub it goes into your main speakers, but only midd's and highs continue towards the main speakers and lows are left for the sub.

I'm not thinking about getting that one, but is this an example of a sub that does what you would hope for in your amp - separating highs from lows?

killdozzer

Actually there are two ways to use the filter in the sub. One way (not recommended) is to run speaker wire out of your amp to the Sub high level input, then high level output from the sub to your speakers. Better way is to take the pre-amp out from your receiver or IA (Integrated Amp) into the low level input to the sub. Then from the low level output from the sub back to your input to the amp section of your receiver or IA. This will also work with a separate pre-amp / power amp arrangement. That is what I run using a pre-amp and a Crown XLS 2502 power amp. Probably one of the lowest cost $/watt solutions out there.

 

[killdozzer]

@Swerd I know, that's why I was kidding about being 3000$ short. It would take me years to save that much money and even then I wouldn't wanna give it for an amp.

That dongle thingy is out of the question for me. If I was going for that, I could have get an USB sound card for my laptop and have it connected all the time. It has to be integrated in the amp.

About the decision though... It is not as easy as it looks. Or, rather, it is easy to stop fantasizing about highly expensive gadgets. But even 950$ is a lot for me and at that price point I'm beginning to expect the equipment to have at least some looks. Even then, my heart would sink every time I glance at my 'Yamaha (cheap-plastic-made-to-resemble-brushed-aluminum) phoney'.

That's why I'm being so tough on the poor thing, since I can't look at it (or touch it), there can be no other compromise, as I said in the post above. It will either do everything I expect it to do or it's of the list. I would hate myself if I gave 950 and still had to invest in some bits just to make it work as I wish.

It should work without any major hiccups. FWIW, technically there's a video feed anyway, as your laptop treats HDMI as another monitor.

To your knowledge, since it is digital, does that mean it bypasses the laptop's sound card and DAC?

 

[Steve81]

To your knowledge, since it is digital, does that mean it bypasses the laptop's sound card and DAC?

Correct.