Give me an Amp Crash Course

[killdozzer]

Actually there are two ways to use the filter in the sub. One way (not recommended) is to run speaker wire out of your amp to the Sub high level input, then high level output from the sub to your speakers. Better way is to take the pre-amp out from your receiver or IA (Integrated Amp) into the low level input to the sub. Then from the low level output from the sub back to your input to the amp section of your receiver or IA. This will also work with a separate pre-amp / power amp arrangement. That is what I run using a pre-amp and a Crown XLS 2502 power amp. Probably one of the lowest cost $/watt solutions out there.

Yep. Thanks. The guys here already had that covered, but I appreciate the effort. Lately I've been hearing a lot about the Crown. Did you ever have any hum/buzz/noise/ problems with it? Which preamp do you use?

killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

Correct.

A! Great news. So it doesn't have to be USB compatible DAC as long as it has some HDMI inputs. This turned everything in favor of receivers since they always pack a few of those HDMI's. This is really good to know.

killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

I would consider Crown if I was in the amp market. The LS50's don't look like they want to kill any amps with their impedance curve but be sure to listen for distortion as you turn it up. When it starts sounding a little rattled, back it off 3 db. That's how I find the max should it need finding.

When the music sounds right, the gear becomes less fascinating by comparison.

I was even thinking of making fun and getting a Luxman preamp. There's one that guy is practically giving away. Crown - 100$ / Luxman preamp 100$ just make it look 'dead serious' while I save for my all-rounder (not the T+A one, obviously). The Crown would be hidden from the view and an overkill, "waaay to expensive" Luxman would sit on the counter top.

I tell you, there would actually be a queue for koza!!

killdozzer

 

[Don G.]

Buy one of these and call it a day.

Onkyo A-9050 Integrated Stereo Amplifier (Black)

Accepts digital or analog inputs, has a sub out with bass management, gives you 85 wpc and costs about $400.

 

[Don G.]

Yep. Thanks. The guys here already had that covered, but I appreciate the effort. Lately I've been hearing a lot about the Crown. Did you ever have any hum/buzz/noise/ problems with it? Which preamp do you use?

killdozzer

Well I use an Onkyo 11.2 channel A/V pre-amp because I run all my electronics through the pre-amp via HDMI (DirecTV receiver, BluRay player, game systems....). But if all you want is audio, you can just use a stereo pre-amp.

I don't get any hum or other artifacts from mine, but it is the newest model with the DriveCore 2 series circuitry. Also, my speakers are very accurate, but not so easy to drive (84 db 4 ohm).

 

[Alex2507]

If I was after a Crown amp, I would seek out a member/mod named jinjuku. He's gonna be a lot more up on them than anybody else that I can think of.

 

[Swerd]

… my heart would sink every time I glance at my 'Yamaha (cheap-plastic-made-to-resemble-brushed-aluminum) phoney'.

The European models have plastic panels? That surprised me when I read that. The 501, 701, and 801 models sold in the USA all claim to have aluminum front panels.

That dongle thingy is out of the question for me. If I was going for that, I could have get an USB sound card for my laptop and have it connected all the time. It has to be integrated in the amp.

"The A-S501, A-S701, and A-S801 are equipped for digital audio inputs with an optical and digital coaxial input terminal. The optical is for receiving audio from a TV and the coaxial for receiving audio from a Blu-ray Disc player."

In addition, the A-S801 has:
"The USB DAC function supports native DSD (2.8 MHz and 5.6 MHz) and PCM (384 kHz / 32-bit*) resolutions. This function allows for a direct connection to PCs which opens the door to play back of the highest resolution audio content offered today. The Yamaha-developed USB device controller has its own master clock that eliminates PC jitter. The driver is a low loss, high throughput ASIO 2.3 Yamaha Steinberg USB driver. During playback, indicators on the front panel clearly show which sampling frequencies are currently being used."

As Steve said, it bypasses the laptop's soundcard and DAC.

 

[Swerd]

@Don G.
In case you haven't followed several threads from the beginning, the OP, killdozzer, is in Zagreb, Croatia, and can't find many items available here in the USA. His deceptively good English fooled me at first.

He just bought a pair of KEF LS50 speakers, and is looking for an integrated amp, stereo receiver, or AVR to drive them. He eventually plans on adding a sub woofer. His music sources are CDs, and computer files.

 

[killdozzer]

The European models have plastic panels?

I don't want to spread false claims, I meant knobs, not panels. I don't know about panels.

Every time you touch the knob it feels as if it's going to brake of and stay in your hand, which is something I'd rather not see in the 950$ price range.

Don't get me wrong; I'm totally surprised with the amount of help I got here, I keep explaining this to my GF and she keeps asking me; "why in the world do they try so hard and where do they find the will?!? I'd send you to hell 100 times by now" aaah, love, what can you do...

You made great points for those Yamaha's and you're the only reason I'm seriously considering either Yamaha or receivers. But the price point got high, AS-801 is still not available here (although it probably will be once I get the money) and weaker models don't do what I want and lastly they are just immensely underwhelming build-wise. So even if I take your advice, it'll be the one on receivers and not necessarily Yamaha.

This Marantz is on sale going for 900$, same power and features, less ugly.

 

[killdozzer]

These two are incompatible, right?



killdozzer

 

[Alex2507]

You can get adapters to go from XLR on the Crown to unbalanced RCA on the Luxman. That set up has promise ... and a phono input.

 

[Swerd]

@killdozzer
You won't insult me if you choose what you prefer . I do understand that an amp's appearance and feel are important. They cost a lot of money, and if they look or feel cheap, it spoils the fun. (Explain that to your GF – carefully.) Remember also that you will probably use the remote control more often than you will the control panel.

You can get adapters to go from XLR on the Crown to unbalanced RCA on the Luxman. That set up has promise ... and a phono input.

You can buy RCA female to XLR male adapters and use them with standard RCA interconnect cables:

or buy cables with male RCA plugs on one end and male XLR plugs on the other end:

 

[Steve81]

You can buy RCA female to XLR male adapters and use them with standard RCA interconnect cables

One thing to keep in mind is gain. A balanced XLR connection typically requires double the voltage vs unbalanced RCA. No big deal if the Crown has a relatively low input sensitivity anyway, but something to think about.

 

[Alex2507]

One thing to keep in mind is gain. A balanced XLR connection typically requires double the voltage vs unbalanced RCA. No big deal if the Crown has a relatively low input sensitivity anyway, but something to think about.

If that Crown isn't plug and play, jinjuku loses major street cred. I for one believe the Crown is the answer that silences the power question for ever and ever amen.

 

[Swerd]

@killdozzer When you return to the search for something to drive your KEFs, it's useful to summarize. You are looking for an integrated amp, stereo receiver, or an Audio/Video Receiver.

Features:

• Delivers an honest 50-100 watts per channel
• Doesn’t cost an arm and a leg
• Has suitable appearance and size
  
• Has a subwoofer output, preferably with a low-pass filter
  
• Has an onboard DAC
• Has connections for digital sound sources:
  • Digital optical or coaxial wire – for CD or DVD player
  • Computer connection for USB, digital, or wireless – this may require changing the PC sound card so it has digital optical or coaxial wire connections, or using a dongle of some kind
• Is made by a reliable manufacturer, such as:
  • Denon
  • Marantz
  • Yamaha
  • Pioneer
  • Onkyo
  • European?

 

[Steve81]

Question: are all the sources going to be digital, i.e. an input for your PC, one for a CDP? If that's the case, with the Crown in the picture, a DAC/digital preamp like my XDA-2 would get the job done. One possibility is this; it has balanced outputs to drive the Crown, and you can simultaneously run a subwoofer off the RCA jacks and use the sub's built in low pass filter/phase knob to effect a decent blend or preout>sub input for bass mgmt>sub's filtered output>amp input.

 

[Swerd]

Question: are all the sources going to be digital, i.e. an input for your PC, one for a CDP?

Yes, as far as I understand it, he has a laptop PC and a DVD player.

If that's the case, with the Crown in the picture, a DAC/digital preamp like my XDA-2 would get the job done. One possibility is this; it has balanced outputs to drive the Crown, and you can simultaneously run a subwoofer off the RCA jacks and use the sub's built in low pass filter/phase knob to effect a decent blend or preout>sub input for bass mgmt>sub's filtered output>amp input.

That's an interesting suggestion. Is that an Emotiva XDA-2? I can't find a link for it at the Emotiva web site – is it still in production? The Parasound Zdac v2 costs $550 retail in the USA. Combined with the Crown, that may be too much.

He says he wants a single box, not multiple boxes; it can't be ugly looking (by his tastes); size is an issue although I don't know what his space limits are; and the price and availability in Europe may be the deciding factors. The equivalent of $1000 US is probably more than he wants to pay. He also wants to avoid buying used.

 

[Steve81]

That's an interesting suggestion. Is that an Emotiva XDA-2? I can't find a link for it at the Emotiva web site – is it still in production?

Correct, but no longer in production. IIRC, it ran for $300, and the amp it's paired with (XPA-200) was also $350 at the time, also no longer in production.

The Parasound Zdac v2 costs $550 retail in the USA.

At this point, I don't doubt his ability to sniff out a deal after getting LS50's for $900/pr Either way, just one potential idea to consider (not necessarily the Parasound itself, just the concept of a "digital preamp").

PS: I thought he was thinking about picking up that Crown for ~$100?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I for one believe the Crown is the answer that silences the power question for ever and ever amen.

If only they could make the Crown look a bit nicer for the home consumer market.

I'm not talking Mark Levinson or Lexicon nice. But something simple and elegant like ATI, NHT, etc. Definitely NOT like Emotiva.

 

[Swerd]

To illustrate what he's up against: I had suggested the Yamaha A-S801. It has all the features he wants/needs: 100 wpc, a subwoofer out jack low-pass filtered at a fixed 90 Hz, digital optical & coaxial inputs, and a USB port for a PC. It retails for $900 in the US but is not available where he is.

The Yamaha A-S701 is apparently identical to the 801 except for the USB port and a less modern DAC, $800 in the US, is available to him, but he doesn't want to pay such a high price. He has seen it, is not in love with the appearance, and the knobs felt cheap when he turned them.

The Yamaha A-S501, identical to the 701, but 85 wpc, is available at about $670, if I recall.

I believe there is also a Yamaha A-S301, identical to the 701/501 but 60 wpc at a lower price.

Any ideas?