Give me an Amp Crash Course

[killdozzer]

Ridiculous claims, perhaps with exception of the "tube watts" thing, and even that is based on a misinterpretation of what they're actually doing (soft clipping that acts very much like a compressor, resulting in higher subjective loudness than an un-distorted signal).

I think you're getting it. View any pseudoscientific audio marketing claims the same way you would those coming from a homeopath or other snake oil salesman.

HERE is the nitty gritty on amp classes for your edification.

Thanks. I read one here on Audioholics, but I like to read about these things. I'll enjoy it later. Off to make some Bolognese!

killdozzer

 

[Swerd]

These are the Yamaha integrated amps that ski2xblack mentioned above. I think they might be what you are looking for, that is if you like their appearance. All are stereo, have a connection that allows using a powered subwoofer, and have a built-in DAC. All are powerful enough to drive any of the speakers you are considering.

These links from the Yamaha USA web page show retail prices for this country. Are they available for you and at what price?

A-S801 – $900

A-S701 – $800

A-S501 – $550

 

[fuzz092888]

Thanks. I read one here on Audioholics, but I like to read about these things. I'll enjoy it later. Off to make some Bolognese!

killdozzer

A good bolognese is the best

 

[killdozzer]

These are the Yamaha integrated amps that ski2xblack mentioned above. I think they might be what you are looking for, that is if you like their appearance. All are stereo, have a connection that allows using a powered subwoofer, and have a built-in DAC. All are powerful enough to drive any of the speakers you are considering.

These links from the Yamaha USA web page show retail prices for this country. Are they available for you and at what price?

A-S801 – $900

A-S701 – $800

A-S501 – $550

I can get A-S701 for 690$. It is a consideration. I am aware of these products, they are on the waiting list. Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, Harman Kardon, Pioneer. I'll go back to them when I fail on my quest.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think you're better off getting a $1000 Denon AVR on sale for $500 on Amazon when the newer models start rolling out.

It will have more power than most low-mid level integrated amps and a lot more features that you may love.

 

[lsiberian]

Unless you are doing pro audio, have a huge room or listen to music at high volumes any mid level receiver from a legit company like Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Pioneer or Marantz will meet your needs.

 

[PENG]

I think here you got me wrong. I'm not expecting much more quality from electronics and THIS is precisely why I don't chase 1000$ stand alone DAC. I think it's a small chip you can build in your amp. I'm expecting to lower the price. And this is the way I'm planing to go about it; I won't be buying phono amplifier, DAC, preamp, I could even avoid CD player in a unit like the Lyric which I linked in my earlier post, but if I find a cheaper version. And it would have a sub out.

I did get you wrong then. If you really want to have everything in one and cheap, listen to fuzz and do not rule out AVRs. An older 7X120 to 140W AVR that costs $300 could sound better than a decent integrated amp that costs $1,000. It will typically have a subout that allows you to set the crossover frequency. Just pretend it is a 2.1 integrated amp.

 

[Alex2507]

I did get you wrong then. If you really want to have everything in one and cheap, listen to fuzz and do not rule out AVRs. An older 7X120 to 140W AVR that costs $300 could sound better than a decent integrated amp that costs $1,000. It will typically have a subout that allows you to set the crossover frequency. Just pretend it is a 2.1 integrated amp.

That's my position exactly. I mean for $2000 you better be able to smoke (and I mean smoke) my $225 modified Infinities and Onkyo 606. Having said that, get whatever you want. Spending money and not getting what you want just adds up to the money being gone and not having the thing you want.

The measured output for my used $350 Yammy 2600 is 122 watts for stereo AND it has analog audio ins and pre-outs. If I was buying new boutique gear, by now I would probably have enough for some wires. But the OP is clear on wanting new gear at a fixed budget number across a year long span.

So how do we get him into a used system by the weekend?

 

[killdozzer]

I think you're better off getting a $1000 Denon AVR on sale for $500 on Amazon when the newer models start rolling out.

It will have more power than most low-mid level integrated amps and a lot more features that you may love.

I still have to see whether I'll be able to benefit from amazon purchase the same way you can in USA. New Denon's do look better and I know they're quite good, so perhaps it will be a Denon. I still have time for electronics. I'm doing speakers first. This is why I started this "crash course" thread to use the time it takes to find speakers to learn something about amp's.

I did get you wrong then. If you really want to have everything in one and cheap, listen to fuzz and do not rule out AVRs. An older 7X120 to 140W AVR that costs $300 could sound better than a decent integrated amp that costs $1,000. It will typically have a subout that allows you to set the crossover frequency.

Your advice is sound (no pun intended), but as I said before I really don't want a receiver. You will all make me scream and start cursing. Even if I don't find something I consider to be "it", I will still buy some of those NAD's, Yamaha's, Rotel's or something like that. It will not be the 7.2 receiver. You might say I'm stubborn, but this is really not the case since I said many times I'd rather not buy a receiver and still I get many, many recommendations to buy a receiver. Of course, this means it is probably a good choice, since you're all recommend it, but it's not my choice. And it's starting to look like there are simply no stereo amp's out there, which can't be the case.

Having said that, I still might make my signature out of this:

Just pretend it is a 2.1 integrated amp.

And lastly, as a smart guy once said (it is actually @Alex2507 ):

Spending money and not getting what you want just adds up to the money being gone and not having the thing you want.

So how do we get him into a used system by the weekend?

Used equipment is less of a problem if it comes to that. But it doesn't have to be by weekend. Remember, it was your advice, speakers first (and I still have some field research to do), and then an appropriate intgr.

You shouldn't probe me on those receivers, you might hear a whole bunch of nonsense!!

 

[killdozzer]

An older 7X120 to 140W AVR that costs $300 could sound better than a decent integrated amp that costs $1,000.

This is one thing I wanted to ask you about, I was finally starting to realize that well constructed amplifiers shouldn't affect sound a great deal. And you even say decent integrated. Why would it sound better?

killdozzer

 

[Alex2507]

This is one thing I wanted to ask you about, I was finally starting to realize that well constructed amplifiers shouldn't affect sound a great deal. And you even say decent integrated. Why would it sound better?

killdozzer

More power means being able to play louder in bigger rooms with less distortion when you do turn it up. The $225 system I talked about earlier lives in a huge garage (approx 2000 ft^2). I turn it up until I hear distortion and then back it off about 3 db. There's definitely a point where the distortion is audible. With less power you hit that point sooner.

The only reason your still getting the rec'r recommendations is because it makes more sense financially and it eliminates saving up for a year. Don't worry about that. We can't help it. If you do get that one system and manage to resist the urge to upgrade for a year, I'll be impressed with your ability to set and meet an objective.

Knowing what you want is half the battle. Having a system that you like seeing when it's off is understandable. Your need for power in an apartment is reduced and space might be an issue so an 8" pre-pro and a 9-1/2" amp being elegantly reduced to a 4" tall IA does make sense. Increased WAF is always good.

If your single, a nice elegant audio system can only help. As things heat up you then whisper, "I take you to my selo ... show you my koza."

 

[killdozzer]

If your single, a nice elegant audio system can only help. As things heat up you then whisper, "I take you to my selo ... show you my koza."

How do you know about my koza??? Are you spying on me trough that small camera on the top of my laptop? Sometimes the red light next to it starts flashing for no apparent reason.

OK. More power I do understand, but don't really need much. Considering space and the fact that I live in high rise, I can't play disco. 2 x 85W should suffice depending on the speaker's needs. Sub will be active.

Why do you think receivers are that much cheaper then intgr.'s even when new?

And it does make more sense financially, but I don't think I'll really go broke on this decision and I will end up with what I so desperately crave.

You can be impressed, just don't bet against me, I'm a very "set and meet an objective" kind of a guy.

It is somewhere very close to this, or at least along those lines:

I only have to place it better and I WILL be using stands. (Do my pictures show when I put them in a reply??)

 

[lovinthehd]

How do you know about my koza??? Are you spying on me trough that small camera on the top of my laptop? Sometimes the red light next to it starts flashing for no apparent reason.

Why do you think receivers are that much cheaper then intgr.'s even when new?

What the heck is a koza? They make a lot more avrs than integrated amps....economies of scale.

 

[killdozzer]

What the heck is a koza? They make a lot more avrs than integrated amps....economies of scale.

Did you change your av?
Koza is something you bring into your marriage. So if it's a good koza you might wanna brag a little bit and take your special girl to check it out. (@Alex2507 is making fun of my somewhat rural origins and whereabouts)

So, watts do equal euros/dollars, but less so if it's receivers. You just might say then that a 500$ receiver does sound better then 500$ intgr. amp.

Tell me, did you see the picture I posted? I'm only asking because I don't know if I doing it right.

 

[Steve81]

This means it is probably a good choice, since you're all recommend it, but it's not my choice. And it's starting to look like there are simply no stereo amp's out there, which can't be the case.

An AVR is a good choice due to the cost vs benefit. An older model AVR that used to retail for $1,000 or so would have adequate power, and various features that you might find beneficial. For me, the biggie has always been a sub out with bass management. There are a few stereo models that do this (Outlaw has a stereo receiver that comes to mind, but not available in your neck of the woods), but they're few and far between. There are also separate preamps that have this feature (Parasound for example), but that raises the $$$ considerably.

 

[lovinthehd]

Av?

Ah, thanks. Being lifelong single....

Very possibly, haven't used an integrated amp in a long time, but I do still have more than enough 2ch gear (separates), and prefer my multich systems these days for the most part, altho I do have a 2ch setup in the spare bedroom for guests.

I see the picture, yes. Not sure if the KEF LS50s and Peachtree integrated are yours, tho? If you mean by setting it up right that pic shows what may as well be a boombox the way the speakers are setup.

(This is for @killdozzer's post above I didn't quote)

 

[killdozzer]

For me, the biggie has always been a sub out with bass management.

When you say bass management do you mean something on the inside or just a crossover knob on the amp itself? In other words if I find a sub out (no knob, just a 3.5 jack like the smaller one for headphones) on the back does this necessarily mean that there is some separation of frequencies inside? If I open this amp maybe I'll find just two wires going from left and right speaker out, only on the inside to make it look more serious.

I did find a couple of amps like this, but I'm still waiting to see what speakers will I be matching my electronic with.

 

[Steve81]

When you say bass management do you mean something on the inside or just a crossover knob on the amp itself? In other words if I find a sub out (no knob, just a 3.5 jack like the smaller one for headphones) on the back does this necessarily mean that there is some separation of frequencies inside?

Bass management can take the form of digital processing done within the AVR, or a labeled low pass filter knob for the sub combined with high passed outputs for your speakers. You can see an example of the latter in this pic:

A stereo amp without this feature usually isn't performing any filtering. In that case, your speakers are fed a full range signal, and you would use the crossover knob on your subwoofer to achieve a good blend.

 

[killdozzer]

Av?

Ah, thanks. Being lifelong single....

Very possibly, haven't used an integrated amp in a long time, but I do still have more than enough 2ch gear (separates), and prefer my multich systems these days for the most part, altho I do have a 2ch setup in the spare bedroom for guests.

I see the picture, yes. Not sure if the KEF LS50s and Peachtree integrated are yours, tho? If you mean by setting it up right that pic shows what may as well be a boombox the way the speakers are setup.

(This is for @killdozzer's post above I didn't quote)

Not mine. I don't have anything at the moment. That's the place I'm going. A performer and a looker. A deadly combination.

AV-atar. Did you change yours?

Yes, it looks like a boom box. I am going for something closer to this:

BUT, less electronics. Cheaper electronics. A lot more books and movies. Only one pair of headphones (top left ones, have them). Central unit that does everything so no other gadgets. Turntable would arrive in time. There's a sub (bottom right). This is also not my picture (I wouldn't reflect myself in Mc') but a setup I have in mind.

 

[killdozzer]

Bass management can take the form of digital processing done within the AVR, or a labeled low pass filter knob for the sub combined with high passed outputs for your speakers. You can see an example of the latter in this pic:
View attachment 17823
A stereo amp without this feature usually isn't performing any filtering. In that case, your speakers are fed a full range signal, and you would use the crossover knob on your subwoofer to achieve a good blend.

So this is as good as nothing (or not really nothing but all it does is tidy up a little bit)?