Give me an Amp Crash Course

[Swerd]

This is a follow-up on the Yamaha vs. Peachtree comparison. I included price and amplifier power. Because size is important to you, I also included cabinet dimensions and weight.

Peachtree nova65SE

• Costs $800 in the USA.
• Amp is 65 watts/channel at 0.5% total harmonic distortion (THD)
• Cabinet is 37.7 cm Wide × 12.6 cm High × 34.3 cm Deep
• Weight is 9.7 kg

Yamaha A-S301

• Costs $350 in the USA
• Amp is 60 watts/channel at 0.019% THD
• Cabinet is 43.5 cm Wide × 15.2 cm High × 38.7 cm Deep
• Weight is 9 kg

The amps have similar power ratings, size, and weight.
Both have a built-in DAC, and a subwoofer output jack.
The Yamaha offers a greater number of input jacks.
The Peachtree has a vacuum tube in its preamp section, claiming it adds warmth to the sound. I would not pay extra for electronic technology dating from the World War II era.
There is a great difference in price, Yamaha costs less than half the price of the Peachtree.

For a price closer to the Peachtree, you could buy a more powerful Yamaha A-S701 at 100 watts/channel amp.

When you do your homework for an AVR (limit your search to Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha), compare them to the above prices and amplifier power ratings. The AVRs will probably be larger and heavier than those integrated stereo amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG...If they all sound the same, why are manufacturers all putting different components, cabinets, and prices on them? Are all who buy anything above the most basic feature list they need just wasting money? Why not just buy all our components from Parts Express or Monoprice?

I said they all measure very similarly and the differences in those numbers (SNR, THD, FR, Crosstalk) are inaudible. And that is a fact based on measurements from Home Theater Magazine.

For example, SNR 100 vs 130dB, THD 0.1% vs 0.001%, FR 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.0dB vs +/-0.5dB, Crosstalk of -70dB vs -120dB.

Now there are other features that may subjectively SIGNIFICANTLY improve the sound quality, but I am just saying those differences in measurement are really insignificant.

I am saying that you should not buy a $1000 Integrated Amp or $1000 Pre-pro and say that it will automatically sound better than an "AVR" just because one is an "Integrated Amp" or "Pre-pro" or "2CH Receiver" and one is an "AVR".

You are better off buying a new $1000 Denon X3100 AVR on sale for $500 than paying $500 for an Integrated Amp.

 

[killdozzer]

OK, on to the next question:

I've been exploring the AVR market for a couple of hours, I don't see any knobs for a sub on the rear panel, but specs say it has bass management. Now I suppose this mean that you can have a good bass management (as many claim Marantz has) without the management itself being at the users disposal. Meaning that it does what it has to do without you meddling. How does the AVR know if you're using towers for your mains or bookshelves, a three way or two way design? Does this change anything. It says even here in reviews on Audioholics that SR6004 has great bass management, but you can't change the crossover point. Or can you? Is it possible this is also accessible via remote?

killdozzer

 

[Steve81]

I've been exploring the AVR market for a couple of hours, I don't see any knobs for a sub on the rear panel, but specs say it has bass management.

These days it's all done via on-screen setup (and auto-calibration w/ included microphones) vs manually fiddling with knobs.

 

[Swerd]

I've been exploring the AVR market for a couple of hours, I don't see any knobs for a sub on the rear panel, but specs say it has bass management. Now I suppose this mean that you can have a good bass management (as many claim Marantz has) without the management itself being at the users disposal. Meaning that it does what it has to do without you meddling. How does the AVR know if you're using towers for your mains or bookshelves, a three way or two way design? Does this change anything. It says even here in reviews on Audioholics that SR6004 has great bass management, but you can't change the crossover point. Or can you? Is it possible this is also accessible via remote?

These questions raise a point that I and others had completely overlooked. All the setup features in modern AVRs are meant to be viewed via an onscreen display with a TV set. Killdozzer will not use a TV set with this system. I have an AVR that was new before 2008, and it can display this information either on a TV screen or on the AVRs display panel (it works but it is inconvenient). Do modern AVRs display anything without a TV set attached? Once the initial set-up is done, a TV is no longer required for music listening. But does this eliminate an AVR for killdozzer?

To directly answer your question, the AVR knows this because you tell it that when you first set it up. It's done in a similar manner as you would inform computer software of your preferences for it's operation and appearance. You tell it how many speakers you have, define them as large or small (use a high-pass filter or not when using a subwoofer), tell the AVR how far away the speakers are located, adjust their volume levels so they are equal, perform some rudimentary equalization to minimize unwanted room effects on bass performance, and set up the details of crossing over to a subwoofer, etc. Some of this may be done with a microphone and automated software that comes with the AVR, or manually. This is goes much further than adjusting bass or treble tone controls. But doing all this assumes you have a TV set that becomes your control panel while you do the set-up procedure.

 

[Steve81]

But doing all this assumes you have a TV set that becomes your control panel while you do the set-up procedure.

One should note, it doesn't have to be a TV per se. Any display with an HDMI input (or even DVI with an appropriate adapter), which includes a great many computer monitors, would also suffice.

 

[Swerd]

One should note, it doesn't have to be a TV per se. Any display with an HDMI input (or even DVI with an appropriate adapter), which includes a great many computer monitors, would also suffice.

Yes, that's could also work, but killdozzer clearly is not familiar with the typical AVR set-up routine. He has never owned one before, and doing the set-up is unlike anything done with the much simpler stereo systems. My question remains, will a modern AVR be unusable for a music only system if there is no available screen for display use during the set-up process?

 

[herbu]

My question remains, will a modern AVR be unusable for a music only system if there is no available screen for display use during the set-up process?

Boy, that's a good point. I don't remember what the defaults were on any of mine. But I do remember how onerous setup was the first time I did one... and how much more so it would have been using only the AVR panel.

So, killdozzer, can you connect this system to your TV? It would likely be one cable, AVR to TV. If you could connect it and leave it connected, that would be good. But it's almost necessary at least for your first AVR setup exercise... after which you can remove the TV if you want.

 

[Steve81]

My question remains, will a modern AVR be unusable for a music only system if there is no available screen for display use during the set-up process?

Checking through a couple manuals from Onkyo and Marantz, it looks like a display is required for setup. HK obviously also utilizes an OSD, but per the manual for the 1610S/1710S:

In this section, you will configure the AVR to match your actual system’s makeup. Although it’s possible to configure the AVR using only the remote and the messages on the AVR’s front-panel display, it is easier if you use the on-screen menu system.

It would probably be a giant PITA to do it that way though.

 

[Swerd]

That's what I thought.

I'm getting very close to telling killdozzer to forget about using an AVR for his system. It depends on whether he has a TV screen or computer monitor, that he can temporarily use.

An integrated stereo amp, such as one of those Yamahas, combined with the bass management available on a powered subwoofer, will not be ideal, but will get the job done.

 

[killdozzer]

Good point. I do have a TV somewhere, in my closet. I'll go check the connections. It was a small Panasonic 4:3. Well as long as I can remove it afterwards I don't mind.

thanks for the head's up

 

[PENG]

That's why I mentioned the $300 AVRs. My 3805 still looks brand new and I can use the OSD to set the crossovers, EQ etc. in less than a minute. Those older AVRs seem indestructible. I thought he made it clear he didn't want to use AVR regardless and apparently new ones only. So if he wants good bass management he may want to look into external active crossovers.

 

[Steve81]

An integrated stereo amp, such as one of those Yamahas, combined with the bass management available on a powered subwoofer, will not be ideal, but will get the job done.

In that case, I'd be looking for an integrated with the aforementioned preouts/main-in combo to get a high passed feed for the speakers. Glancing at Marantz, Yamaha, and Onkyo was a bust, but it looks like NAD has them starting with the C326BEE.

 

[Swerd]

In that case, I'd be looking for an integrated with the aforementioned preouts/main-in combo to get a high passed feed for the speakers. Glancing at Marantz, Yamaha, and Onkyo was a bust, but it looks like NAD has them starting with the C326BEE.

I looked at the NAD C326BEE page but saw no mention of an adjustable high pass for the main speakers. It also does not have a DAC.

If it comes down to a choice of a built-in DAC vs. an high-pass filter for speakers, I would choose the DAC.

 

[Steve81]

I looked at the NAD C326BEE page but saw no mention of an adjustable high pass for the main speakers. It does not have a DAC.

No, it doesn't have any high pass filters built in, but some subwoofers do that can be connected via the preout/main in jacks. Barring that, you're limited to low-passing the sub.

Either way, just one example of a product with the feature. The ideal product would have both; however, it's a lot easier to add a DAC to an integrated amp than it is to add useful bass management.

 

[Swerd]

I guess we can argue over the fine points and our preferences indefinitely. Features can be distracting, as we have demonstrated . It will all come down to what is available to our friend in Zagreb, and what price he finds acceptable.

By the way kd, $1025 for a pair of KEF LS50s is excellent! If you do get those speakers, I would look for an amp closer to 100 watts/channel instead of 50. But that is merely my preference.

 

[Swerd]

That's why I mentioned the $300 AVRs. My 3805 still looks brand new and I can use the OSD to set the crossovers, EQ etc. in less than a minute. Those older AVRs seem indestructible. I thought he made it clear he didn't want to use AVR regardless and apparently new ones only. So if he wants good bass management he may want to look into external active crossovers.

You have LS50s don't you?

When I heard them, it was without any sub and without any high pass filter. Some speakers may benefit from use with a high pass filter and for others it doesn't seem to matter much. What's your opinion?

 

[Steve81]

Some speakers may benefit from use with a high pass filter and for others it doesn't seem to matter much.

Most speakers benefit from a high pass filter, though in part it depends on what you're asking from the speaker in the first place. Obviously if you're pushing a speaker to the point where its audibly distorting as a result of pushing the woofer beyond its linear limits, high passing will help. This goes doubly so for vented speakers (which the LS50 is), as anything approaching a full power transient below port tune at high playback levels is a fine way to kill a driver. Even powerful vented subs like the PB13U utilize a combination of DSP limiting and high pass filtering to keep the woofer from self destructing.

 

[PENG]

You have LS50s don't you?

When I heard them, it was without any sub and without any high pass filter. Some speakers may benefit from use with a high pass filter and for others it doesn't seem to matter much. What's your opinion?

Based on my experience, I concur with what Steve said. I have tried using the Rythmik E15HP's build in 80 Hz HPF, the AVR-3805's XO 80,100 Hz and full range; and found no difference/preference at normal listening volume either way. I plotted a bunch of graphs and could see that 90 Hz should yield flatter response in that room but I have no way to do it without adding an external crossover. I ended up leaving the 80 Hz HP on instead of pure direct because then I know I can listen at much louder volume without worry.

I have since gone back to driving the LS50 with the separate amps but still use the E15HP's HPF so in effect it is acting like an active biamped setup. The 3805 is now driving my R900 that is side by side with the LS50.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

will a modern AVR be unusable for a music only system if there is no available screen for display use during the set-up process?

You don't need to set up anything if all you need is DIRECT mode for 2Ch music.

And even cheap AVR have front LCD to navigate the Menu for basic function - Source Select, Surround Mode, Crossover, Speaker Configuration.

If he uses the AVR like he would use an analog preamp or integrated amp (no need for Room EQ), then absolutely yes!

I've used a cheap $200 Denon AVR for simply plug-and-play without the need for On Screen Display. The AVR has LCD screen for Source Select. So you select the source, press play on the source, hook up the speakers, use Direct or Stereo mode, and that's it.