DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

Status
Not open for further replies.
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
I just deleted one of my posts in another thread: it disappeared... S
I can see the one you just deleted in this thread. I've never set up a vbulletin forum so I don't know what there are as far as options when it comes to this kind of stuff.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
In the end, its all just text in files or tables, so if you know where to look and have permissions, you can edit to your hearts content.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
If you find a delicate way to bring up Ballet Nouveau over there and not get it deleted, you may find yourself on Ripley's Believe it or Not.
Let's find out...
When discussing the current state of forum moderation last week, I included the following comments about raffles:

Those raffles are a particularly sore subject for many people, both because of the continued uncertainty and the situation itself. All told, there have been several dozen raffles over the last four or five years. These include a pair of concurrent raffles in July 2007, each meant to split approximately $6000 between Sloan Kettering (on behalf of Dave Fabrikant's late father) and an orphanage in Khabarovsk, Russia. Mark has admitted to having paid only $3000 to Sloan Kettering and still needing to pay the balance. Some reports from outside AV123 indicate that the $3000 that was paid came several months after the raffle closed and only after someone contacted Sloan Kettering and found that no money had been received. No information exists regarding the orphanage's money. There were also a total of four raffles (three between late August 2007 and late October 2007 and a fourth in October 2008) to assist with medical bills for Derek Wayland after his daughter Bemi developed significant health issues that included diabetes and kidney problems. Those four raffles raised around $39,000. As of last week, roughly $34,000 remains undelivered and more than half of the money that was delivered went directly from a contributor to Derek. Mark has admitted to owing Derek money, but hasn't offered details regarding the magnitude of that debt. In January 2008, a trio of raffles was held to raise $10,000 to support a friend of Hugh who was dealing with liver cancer. The friend passed away without receiving any of the money from Mark, and I have never heard of any reports of where that money ended up. Mark has said on a few occasions that he has underfunded two raffles. The disturbing reality of the term "underfunded" notwithstanding, the number "two" does not match up well to the six to nine individual raffles whose funds remain partly or wholly missing.
Those comments were made in a thread which is focused on forum moderation, and as such getting away from that topic is not desirable. There have been some additional discoveries this week that raise additional questions about the subject of raffles. Hopefully such questions can be asked and discussed here, without getting any other threads off-topic.

There were more than 30 raffles held over the course of four years: the first started in October 2004, the most recent started in October 2008. Charities included the Ballet Nouveau Colorado, forum member Brucer, the Red Cross (Katrina relief in 2005), Fallen Officer's Memorial, Juvenile Diabetes Research Fund, an orphanage in Khabarovsk, Sloan Kettering, the Denver Children's Hospital, the Wayland family, a close friend of Hugh's, and several others. Some charities were the beneficiary of multiple raffles. The orphanage alone was full or partial beneficiary of nine raffles that yielded over $38,000 in donations. All told, these raffles raised in excess of $200,000.

Then some time in 2008, some reports started surfacing of raffle donations not being delivered. Mark went on record at one point (I think early this year, but I couldn't find the specific post) that two raffles had been "underfunded." The following was posted by Mark on 8/18/2009, and it provides some verification of this.

No additional raffles will be completed until the two underfunded ones have been completed...

This makes clear my intentions... and what will take place 1st - and then second...
The problem that I had previously with this statement was one of magnitude. The two raffles were actually two charities. Mark has specifically mentioned Sloan Kettering (or "SK") and the Waylands as the two in question. Between those two charities, there were actually six raffles (two run concurrently for Sloan Kettering, with half of the proceeds going to the orphanage in Khabarovsk, and four separate raffles for the Waylands). This number also doesn't address Hugh's friend, a third charitable cause that was to benefit from a trio of raffles. That friend died without seeing any of the collected money.

What is more worrisome now is new information from Ballet Nouveau Colorado, which states that they have received a single donation of $7,500 from Perpetual Technologies in November 2005. That coincides pretty well with the October 2005 raffle that raised $10,000 for BNC, although it leaves $2,500 unaccounted for. It also leaves two other raffles completely unaccounted for. The first was in October 2004 (the first raffle ever put on by Mark and AV123), and it raised $5,250 for BNC. The other was in December 2007, in which $5,600 of a possible $7,500 was collected in a raffle of a pair of LS-4's. Overall, that adds up to $20,850 in donations. And yet BNC has no record of other contributions from Mark Schifter, AV123, or Perpetual Technologies. (See this post and this post for the specifics from BNC, but note that I ran my numbers separately and included the lesser total collected value of the December 2007 raffle in my calculations.) That leaves $13,350 in donations unaccounted for. It also identifies three more raffles and one more charity that have been "underfunded." That brings the total to four charities and a dozen raffles for which some or all of the funds are reported to be unaccounted for (at least $50,000 overall).

I understand that AV123 has set their focus on the future. They have containers of Rockets arriving at their warehouse. They have LS-9 cabinets arriving and being built out. They have finalized the design for the UFW-12 HR driver. All of that is good and positive forward movement. But sometimes we have to look at our past, no matter how pressing the demands of the present, and make things right. The four charities in question combined to generate a bit over $70,000 in donations to a dozen raffles (roughly a third of the total collected in all of the raffles over those four years). All of the available information indicates that at least $50,000 of that money (a quarter of all raffle donations, and over 70% of the donations for these four charities) is currently unaccounted for. This matter would seem to deserve some open discussion.
I don't know how delicate it is, but I can only do so much with the material I'm given...
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
This post from mls in gonk's Interpretation thread seems worthy of a paste and copy here:

Today, 01:20 PM
Mark L. Schifter
AV123.com Founder Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 17,519


Please forgive the very short reply...

Over the next few weeks there will be something other than words here to talk about.

I have a good team that is helping me to take care of delivering on my promises with respect to this...

I have been asked by my team to not say more - just deliver on my promises, and the plan that was put in place last week - and at the appropriate moment I will surely have more to say.

I'm going to quietly offer that in this thread or others please keep it civil and polite - and respectful to all parties... This is a forum for our mutual benefit and enjoyment and those going outside of the bounds of decency or reasonableness will be asked out... This is our home...

Thank You...

mls
__________________
Mark L. Schifter
President and Founder
Perpetual Technologies / www.av123.com
Here is a link if you want to see the post in it's natural habitat.

So, who wants to take a shot at what "next few weeks" means? Halloween? Thanksgiving? or Christmas?

Mods, if this is not appropriate here please delete. Just don't lie about the deletion. ;)
 
Soundman

Soundman

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm going to quietly offer that in this thread or others please keep it civil and polite - and respectful to all parties... This is a forum for our mutual benefit and enjoyment and those going outside of the bounds of decency or reasonableness will be asked out... This is our home...

Thank You...

mls
I know he is the master of politeness, but this sounds like a threat to me.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
Don't bother calling Ripley's. It lasted just under three hours, got about half a dozen replies, and got maybe 100 views, but it's gone now. I'm still glad I posted it, though. I think it deserved to be said (typed). Of the funds that have been checked on so far (just over a third of the total raffle funds collected), over 70% is missing. The missing funds date back to the very first raffle. The combination of those two facts is significant, I think. That's just me, though...
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
This post from mls in gonk's Interpretation thread seems worthy of a paste and copy here:



Here is a link if you want to see the post in it's natural habitat.

So, who wants to take a shot at what "next few weeks" means? Halloween? Thanksgiving? or Christmas?

Mods, if this is not appropriate here please delete. Just don't lie about the deletion. ;)
I can only think of his own employees when he mentions "team" in that response. That is the first thing that comes to mind. In my opinion if I was an employee I would not appreciate where it can be assumed employees are being consulted in reference to a response/action regarding the raffle issues. This mainly deals with the CEO and Graham Company, no? That response doesn't look good on their behalf in my opinion.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Well! Gee. Wow. Greg_Mitch says, "If any of this is true, it should be taken to the proper authorities not this discussion board." I'd be rather surprised if that's not the case. Investigations usually take longer than on CSI though. As to Mark saying he'll have more to say, I guess we can count on Ballet Nouveau being addressed and maybe our favorite charity in hottsie tottsie land, Khabarovsk.

Now, what will Mark say about the fact that it was patently illegal for him to conduct the raffles in the first place as he was not an authorized organization? If he were an authorized organization, then it was illegal both to not deliver the funds in a timely fashion as well as only partially or not deliver at all.

And really, the hits keep coming folks! A guy who won a raffle and didn't receive a sub! There had to be a broken one there he could've sent for heaven's sake!

He once met Criss Angel and picked his pocket -while he dangled alone above everone in NYC. He owns all the episodes of It Takes A Thief in English and Russian. His hair clippings are used to light the Olympic Torch. He once crossed the Himalayas in a hot air balloon using only his breath.
He's the most interesting man in the world. "I don't always answer your questions when asked, but at the appropriate moment I will surely have more to say. Of course, if I'm sick, have carpal tunnel, or my voice is weak from auditioning for America's Got Talent, it may be delayed." Stay thirsty my friends!
 
D

david-me

Audioholic Intern
I can only think of his own employees when he mentions "team" in that response. That is the first thing that comes to mind. In my opinion if I was an employee I would not appreciate where it can be assumed employees are being consulted in reference to a response/action regarding the raffle issues. This mainly deals with the CEO and Graham Company, no? That response doesn't look good on their behalf in my opinion.
Yea, now they are conspiring...
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
The response was in the thread on censorship, where we'd been told to stay on topic, and it is intentionally vague. Does it refer to the raffles that a couple people had posted about earlier today? Does it refer to refunds? Does it refer to my request for some clarification on what rules the forum is operating under? Hard to say.
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
The response was in the thread on censorship, where we'd been told to stay on topic, and it is intentionally vague. Does it refer to the raffles that a couple people had posted about earlier today? Does it refer to refunds? Does it refer to my request for some clarification on what rules the forum is operating under? Hard to say.
Some refunds also deal with Graham Co. as well and it has been said in the past that AV123 employees have nothing to do with these matters, you have to take it up with the CEO. Great point because now I realize how much of a cluster #$%^ is going on. I agree it is hard to say what it actually refers too. Thank you for letting me realize that.
 
Last edited:
Soundman

Soundman

Audioholic Field Marshall
Don't bother calling Ripley's. It lasted just under three hours, got about half a dozen replies, and got maybe 100 views, but it's gone now. I'm still glad I posted it, though. I think it deserved to be said (typed). Of the funds that have been checked on so far (just over a third of the total raffle funds collected), over 70% is missing. The missing funds date back to the very first raffle. The combination of those two facts is significant, I think. That's just me, though...
It is more then just you. It "IS" significant! :)
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I won't call this man a fool, but this is what was written on another forum last year and it speaks to the public perception, at least at that time, of what was going on.
Sure, on the back end donations are tax write offs. But, on the front end, the REASON for the raffles and subsiquent donations that Av123 has held over the years on their forums have benifited many MANY people and causes.

He didn't raffle off gear and then match it penny for penny to buy $15K worth of medicine to send to an orphanage in Russia for the tax write off.... he did it for the children there who were dying.

It's easy from afar to just say the donations were for tax write offs. But, if you'd actually watched their forum over the years, seen other manufacturers donating product freely to be raffled for one of the causes.... you would have a better understanding of what he does for those truly in need.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
I won't call this man a fool, but this is what was written on another forum last year and it speaks to the public perception, at least at that time, of what was going on.
There really wasn't any reason back then to doubt the man either. Some on AVS had it in for MLS from the get go (won't mention any names) but their reasons weren't what is being discussed today. To say that a lot of folks were duped is an understatement, myself included.
 
D

david-me

Audioholic Intern
I do understand... vague is not really welcome with these sorts of issues... I can only say that while I've been asked by others to stay quiet until my plan goes into effect - and people can see for themselves what I'm doing --- that I felt I needed to say "something" at this moment... There are many things I'd like to say in reply - but it's really best that I keep quiet and just allow others to do their jobs with respect to this so that people can see how serious this is being taken...

My every being just hurts...

More at the appropriate moment...

Thanks...

mls
um... "My every being just hurts..."

WTF is that?

A little melodramatic much?
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
There really wasn't any reason back then to doubt the man either. Some on AVS had it in for MLS from the get go (won't mention any names) but their reasons weren't what is being discussed today. To say that a lot of folks were duped is an understatement, myself included.
You make it seem like they had no reason to dislike or not trust him.

Do you remember the reason he gave on why AV123 stopped selling Swans?
 
T

tom67

Full Audioholic
Av 123

I am buying something from them just to keep this thread going..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top