DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[cschang]

No linky, but the old-timers will remember. MLS said B&W was taking legal action against him selling a speaker with the tweeter mounted on top of the cabinet, and that he could not afford the legal fees to battle them. That is when the Rockets were born, and as we well know, Swans are still being sold here in the States.

A quick google and I come up with these:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/70339/new-addition-at-av123-rocket-speakers/0

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=804

 

[greg_mitch]

Well! Gee. Wow. Greg_Mitch says, "If any of this is true, it should be taken to the proper authorities not this discussion board." I'd be rather surprised if that's not the case. Investigations usually take longer than on CSI though. As to Mark saying he'll have more to say, I guess we can count on Ballet Nouveau being addressed and maybe our favorite charity in hottsie tottsie land, Khabarovsk.

Now, what will Mark say about the fact that it was patently illegal for him to conduct the raffles in the first place as he was not an authorized organization? If he were an authorized organization, then it was illegal both to not deliver the funds in a timely fashion as well as only partially or not deliver at all.

And really, the hits keep coming folks! A guy who won a raffle and didn't receive a sub! There had to be a broken one there he could've sent for heaven's sake!

He once met Criss Angel and picked his pocket -while he dangled alone above everone in NYC. He owns all the episodes of It Takes A Thief in English and Russian. His hair clippings are used to light the Olympic Torch. He once crossed the Himalayas in a hot air balloon using only his breath.
He's the most interesting man in the world. "I don't always answer your questions when asked, but at the appropriate moment I will surely have more to say. Of course, if I'm sick, have carpal tunnel, or my voice is weak from auditioning for America's Got Talent, it may be delayed." Stay thirsty my friends!

Don't be such a jackass.

What I meant was that this accusations are very serious. Take them to the proper authorities so they can get warrants, etc. and properly research all of these items. If you have already, then good job...I didn't know that.

 

[davidtwotrees]

The True and Righteous Brotherhood of the Objectivist

Ladies. Ladies. Get a life. Move on. This is classic he said she said bs. Since when has audioholics been a hiding place for AV forums misfits and malcontents? You ladies should take off the tin foil hats, unplug your Nordost interconnects, and move on. You are wasting bandwith amongst The True Brotherhood of the Objectivist...........

 

[Chu Gai]

Don't be such a jackass.

What I meant was that this accusations are very serious. Take them to the proper authorities so they can get warrants, etc. and properly research all of these items. If you have already, then good job...I didn't know that.

Greg, you may've mistaken my intent. It was not to take a personal shot at you. I ought to have written that more clearly and for that I extend my sincerest apologies for being flippant. I applaud you for having written that over at 123 even though your post survived but a short time.

There was an individual earlier in this thread who indicated he was taking matters to the Colorado State Attorney General. His intent originally was because MLS, and I use that in an all encompassing sense, had failed to deliver upon refunds, paid for products, etc. exceeding what might normally be considered in a reasonable time. Those are violations of Colorado Consumer Protection Laws. He seemed surprised that the raffle situation was as bad as it was and indicated that may be a part of what he will be discussing with the agency. I believe he also indicated a desire to for people to PM him if they had any additional information. I'll have to find that person.

As to other matters concerning alerting law enforcement, the only think I'm able to say is that there are people looking into pursuing both civil actions as well as bringing matters forward to appropriate agencies. If you're not aware, Greg, please note that even if MLS makes good today on any and all charity raffles, it was still illegal for him to run the raffles as he is not a Non-Profit Agency that is registered with the State of Colorado, has been in business for 5 years, and all that good stuff. There are multiple charges that can be brought and the cumulative effect can easily push it into the felony class. Also please note that charges like computer crime, IRS, and other Federal agencies will have particular interest.

What I am doing publically is contacting charities, providing them information, and asking for corroboration. I then post the results and compare them to raffle summaries. So far, I've gotten lucky with Ballet Nouveau. I'll be hitting up the Jimmy Fund next. There are things I can't publically discuss which are of a private nature both with respect to myself and with others who've shared sensitive information.

So yes, as you stated at 123, the charges are profoundly serious. The penalties frankly boggle the mind. That they haven't been discussed with any seriousness over there or for that matter taken quite seriously by MLS long ago is stunning. Again, Greg, please accept my apologies for running my words without due care to your post.

 

[Chu Gai]

No linky, but the old-timers will remember. MLS said B&W was taking legal action against him selling a speaker with the tweeter mounted on top of the cabinet, and that he could not afford the legal fees to battle them. That is when the Rockets were born, and as we well know, Swans are still being sold here in the States.

A quick google and I come up with these:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/70339/new-addition-at-av123-rocket-speakers/0

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=804

That story! B&W never had anything to do with it.

 

[Chu Gai]

I just read it Django. Making good on the raffles is right but it's not going to stop legal action(s). There's the matter of

undeclared income over the years
fraud
running illegal raffles
consumer protection violations
computer crime
interstate violations
state laws
federal laws
business deals where people lost their money

I don't know who his team is, but it better not be friends. It better a crack legal team because frankly, Mark Schifter and perhaps others that are the principals of AV123 are going to not only incur massive legal bills such that they'll bankrupt not only him but sink AV123, with, IMHO, the prospect of jail time.

 

[GirgleMirt]

I won't call this man a fool, but this is what was written on another forum last year and it speaks to the public perception, at least at that time, of what was going on.

There really wasn't any reason back then to doubt the man either. Some on AVS had it in for MLS from the get go (won't mention any names) but their reasons weren't what is being discussed today. To say that a lot of folks were duped is an understatement, myself included.

You make it seem like they had no reason to dislike or not trust him.

That bold part is very funny and ironic, to me at least. Obviously, it seems there was reasons to doubt the man, even 'back then', because he managed to set off of BS meter of a couple folks, who apparently only had an issue with this one crooked man/company... You said you won't mention any names, but I was reading the old thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1011564&page=2), and ironically, it the folk who "had it in" for Schifter, were actually the ones who had a clear picture Whoddathunkit! I guess others were too enthralled to see things clearly and rationally...

Another 'great' thread linked in the last: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1010676

Again, always the same thing. Everything (fanboyism) simply compounded every single issue. The prepayments? Sure, what could possibly go wrong, the throngs say absolutely nothing! Here's my money! Defective products? Sure! Again, how can anyone complain about anything av123.com? They're the nicest people of the world and if there's anything they could do, they'd do it! They're the Jesus of speaker companies! Raffles? Again, give away, verify nothing, Schifter is Jesus reincarnated, for sure nothing can go wrong here also!

All these people played exactly into his hands. They were led like lambs... Obviously, some people saw through it, but they were chastised by the cult members... Which again, just compounded the issue.

Sad to say, but "I told you so" definitely comes to mind... Looking back, I'm sure many feel like fools, or should... And again, others aren't even phased yet, they soldier on, stolen charity money, unwilling to reimburse money, lies, defective products, all matters not! Stay in formation people! Don't let anything stand in your way!

 

[Matt34]

I'm going to lock this thread for a bit (with the intent of being re-opened), we have gotten away from the Admin's intent in keeping this thread open. There has been some good information posted but it's getting lost in unfounded allegations and banter. It was never intended to be a base of operations for a witch hunt.

If you have something relevant that you feel will benefit the community or have a personally transaction (good or bad) dealling with AV123, PM me and I'll post it.

Edit: If anyone would like to take the time and consolidate the pertinent info of the current situation into a summary I'll be happy to add it to this thread or create a separate thread and sticky it.

 

[Matt34]

Here is what Gonk has sent me:

First are a few useful "summary" type posts:

copy of raffle list (includes the addition of one raffle not in TheMonk's original list)

Derek's list of raffles (summary of raffles that were held to benefit the Waylands for their daughter's medical bills)

Derek's calculations (description of how much money has been delivered to the Waylands - $5000 in all, with less than $2500 coming directly from Mark and the remainder being sent directly to the Waylands by a contributor)

First report on Ballet Nouveau Colorado donations and copy of email from BNC

copy of my raffle summary post, which was subsequently deleted from AV123. It includes some adjusted numbers regarding contributions collected for BNC.

"Open for interpretation" thread at AV123, which I have a PDF copy of as well. I put it up on my website here, and I've got a snapshot from near the end of the donations thread, too.

I've also done a little tinkering around with a spreadsheet summary of the raffle money that was raised, based on the list that TheMonk made and Chu Gai modified.

Below is an older list of posts that I compiled around 9/14 before starting my "Open for interpretation" thread at AV123:

• Cujobob's deleted post about his $6000 refund (related to censorship and an outstanding refund)
  
• droht's raffle inquiry and droht's follow-up (related to censorship and raffles)
  
• jackass's bad check (related to outstanding refund)
  
• django1's first ban post and django1's follow-up (related to censorship and raffles)
  
• gonk's deleted post (related to censorship and raffles)
  
• Mac's moderator retirement thread (related to Mark breaking a promise to Mac and offering pre-pays)

There's a ton of useful raw data out there, but this is a good overview.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Matt34]

Someone has opened a forum dedicated to this situation.

http://dontschiftermebro.com/forum/index.php

 

[Matt34]

Open for business.

 

[Chu Gai]

Well, publicly, I've been rather quiet lately. You know, picking up people at the airport, having guests over from India and the Nebulon Galaxy has occupied much of my time.

I looked around for that guy Brucer in some of the woodworking or woodturning forums in Texas but nothing much turned up. The raffle of 1/17/05 supposedly raised 10K for him and I was hoping to locate him and get some comment. Brucer was a guy who built things like stands and cabinets to order for people. Some people got what they paid for. A lot got the pleasure of sending him money and never getting anything in return. A part of me was laughing inside thinking wouldn't it be something if Brucer, who stiffed a few people for money, got stiffed by the guy who also stiffed people for money. It's like, who do you root for in a situation like this?

As it stands now, contact to various degrees has been made with some additional charity recipients and I'm hoping that contact with the remaining charities can be accomplished in the next couple of weeks. If anyone can figure out Khabarovsk, or can speak Russian and wants a phone number, give me a PM. Maybe you can get lucky.

In the meantime, maybe I've missed it, but have any of the folks who paid for speakers like the LS-9's ever received anything?

 

[Matt34]

In the meantime, maybe I've missed it, but have any of the folks who paid for speakers like the LS-9's ever received anything?

I think Sean aka "the Ninja" and toddbagwell are next in line. Todd's was suppose to ship yesterday but he hasn't received any notification or paid for the shipping.

 

[droht]

Beyond the raffles, which mls is not going to discuss, it would be interesting to hear what the expectations are for back order shipments per week. It seems like they are getting only a few LS-9s or 6s out per month, but maybe that is not accurate? How many are owed and at what rate will they complete them? I'd post the Q on av123 forum, but I'm currently on the "lifetime ban" list. That sort of discussion would be a step in the right direction. Not holding my breath...

 

[cschang]

How many LS9's were pre-paid, and how many have been delivered? What has been the timeframe from money sent to product received?

 

[Chu Gai]

Well, the way I figure it, first he has to get the house issue squared away (you know that thing that's in the public domain that I'm not supposed to talk about because it's personal). Until that happens, I can't see anyone getting anything they've prepaid for years ago. He's also got to find a way to move the speakers he's received. I see that a few people have written in about their recent orders but it doesn't seem as if they're flying off the shelves. This is not going to be a FIFO kind of thing at all.

 

[Chu Gai]

Well that's one of the artist's renderings. That's all it is though. None of the people so honored as to be a beta tester who had to pony up 6K each ever heard a thing. In fact, there wasn't even a prototype made. All the people that were supposed to be involved in it - Santiago, Wally Liederman, Arnie Nudell, Bascom King - no longer are with the possibile exception of Santiago. There is no ACT3 website. I do remember him mentioning some guy Chris but then Mark is infamous for mentioning names with nothing to back it up.

You see, that's all Mark has ever done. Shown a few renderings. Shown a couple of semi-finished cabinets but with no drivers. There has never been a prototype made that's been tested, measured, listened to. Nothing. Whatever babble has been posted on the 123 website has no chance of seeing the light of day for years. And years is something that MLS doesn't have. My recommendation is that if you're one of the beta testers who got suckered for 6K is to take him to small claims court. Do it now and do it quick before events conspire and you find yourself dealing with a bankrupt company.

 

[droht]

Damn, that is a sweet looking speaker...

 

[Chu Gai]

Damn, that is a sweet looking speaker...

Sure it is. It's a drawing. Just like Ms. Marvel, it's not real. But if you want a date with her, send me 6K and I'll see what I can do.

 

[NicolasKL]

I have to say I'm not terribly impressed with the post that MLS closed out the "Open to interpretation" thread with.

Multiple references to attorneys.

More of his veiled innuendo regarding "he knows the "inside story" about who these folks are."

Threats made towards the people putting this in the light of day ("one day very soon those on the other side are going to find out how uncomfortable this kind of daily scrutiny can make ones life" etc).

More of his "poor MLS, I'm being persecuted, my family is sick, I've had a rough day" stuff.

His bogus "I'm not censoring" argument. If employees are spending time they shouldn't be on the thread, tell them to quit it. The forum is already moderated to the hilt, one more thread can't possible make an exorbitant difference in the amount of time it takes. Could even reduce the time it takes since the thread may act as a funnel for all the things they want to censor.