yamaha Avr with electric current on body

S

sand87

Audioholic
See if you can load it down with a 1 k, 5j or even 10 kOhm resistor, otherwise you will likely get quite a bit of voltage on your digital multimeter. Or if you have an analog multi-meter then you will have a better chance getting a real reading instead of a phantom one.
analog..i will buy one off amazon i guess
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
well i dont know if yamaha will ever budge but seeing many amplifiers if not all having this issue i think that yamaha is seriously playing with customers or having questionable quality control.even if it is not on every single device still it doesnt invoke any confidence in me in buying their device once again.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
This is the second thread he has started on this. The intensity of his tingle would indicate that the chassis is at least 30 volts above ground. I would guess from his description that it is in the 30 to 40 volt range.

As I explained in the OP'S previous post, I am certain that his unit was NOT made for India and needs to be replaced. It was I'm sure, made for a country like Indonesia and many others where the AC supply is 110/220 to 120/240 center tapped. So that in those countries at 220 to 240 volts center tapped there, no neutral. So the technique of double insulation will not work. India is like the UK, with 240 volts and a neutral. The US is actually the same with the exception that the houses are wired for 120 volts, unless it is a 240 volt device like a clothes dryer for instance.

We went though all this in the previous thread. So he either he has a grey market unit not deigned for India, or Yamaha packaged the units incorrectly and they have shipped the wrong units to the wrong country.

The situation is that unless he can get that unit replaced he is going to have to dispose of it.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
This is the second thread he has started on this. The intensity of his tingle would indicate that the chassis is at least 30 volts above ground. I would guess from his description that it is in the 30 to 40 volt range.

As I explained in the OP'S previous post, I am certain that his unit was NOT made for India and needs to be replaced. It was I'm sure, made for a country like Indonesia and many others where the AC supply is 110/220 to 120/240 center tapped. So that in those countries at 220 to 240 volts center tapped there, no neutral. So the technique of double insulation will not work. India is like the UK, with 240 volts and a neutral. The US is actually the same with the exception that the houses are wired for 120 volts, unless it is a 240 volt device like a clothes dryer for instance.

We went though all this in the previous thread. So he either he has a grey market unit not deigned for India, or Yamaha packaged the units incorrectly and they have shipped the wrong units to the wrong country.

The situation is that unless he can get that unit replaced he is going to have to dispose of it.
This is the second thread he has started on this.

well yes it is but thats because i created this thread to request indian yamaha users to check and update as there has been a lot of confusion as i keep on checking this and i am now feeling that theres a clear online offline disconnect happening at least in india where offline pdts are not having this issue,though i am yet to totally confirm that.and thanks to members like u and many others things are
finally clearing up one by one


The intensity of his tingle would indicate that the chassis is at least 30 volts above ground. I would guess from his description that it is in the 30 to 40 volt range.

I measured and its 10V AC.


reagrding wat u said here i have a ques.mine and another users yamaha receiver and amp respt has the same issue.mines a malaysia make and offline dealers are saying that its indonesian make avrs that they receive here in india.on mine its written made for220- 240v i guess.pls see the attachment.
 

Attachments

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S

sand87

Audioholic
This is the second thread he has started on this. The intensity of his tingle would indicate that the chassis is at least 30 volts above ground. I would guess from his description that it is in the 30 to 40 volt range.

As I explained in the OP'S previous post, I am certain that his unit was NOT made for India and needs to be replaced. It was I'm sure, made for a country like Indonesia and many others where the AC supply is 110/220 to 120/240 center tapped. So that in those countries at 220 to 240 volts center tapped there, no neutral. So the technique of double insulation will not work. India is like the UK, with 240 volts and a neutral. The US is actually the same with the exception that the houses are wired for 120 volts, unless it is a 240 volt device like a clothes dryer for instance.

We went though all this in the previous thread. So he either he has a grey market unit not deigned for India, or Yamaha packaged the units incorrectly and they have shipped the wrong units to the wrong country.

The situation is that unless he can get that unit replaced he is going to have to dispose of it.
one thing i found is malasyia is 240V and indonesia and india is 230V but i dont think that cud make a diff but then i may be wrong.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
This is the second thread he has started on this.

well yes it is but thats because i created this thread to request indian yamaha users to check and update as there has been a lot of confusion as i keep on checking this and i am now feeling that theres a clear online offline disconnect happening at least in india where offline pdts are not having this issue,though i am yet to totally confirm that.and thanks to members like u and many others things are
finally clearing up one by one


The intensity of his tingle would indicate that the chassis is at least 30 volts above ground. I would guess from his description that it is in the 30 to 40 volt range.

I measured and its 10V AC.


reagrding wat u said here i have a ques.mine and another users yamaha receiver and amp respt has the same issue.mines a malaysia make and offline dealers are saying that its indonesian make avrs that they receive here in india.on mine its written made for220- 240v i guess.pls see the attachment.
You can not feel 10 volts, so you measurement is wrong. It needs to be somewhere above 25 volts to feel it.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
You can not feel 10 volts, so you measurement is wrong. It needs to be somewhere above 25 volts to feel it.
weird.it shows 10V AC and i can very well feel it.strange.on second thought its just the potential diff rt.the current that flows could always be high enough to give a shock rt?
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
one thing i found is malasyia is 240V and indonesia and india is 230V but i dont think that cud make a diff but then i may be wrong.
The problem is not the voltage, but how the AC supply is configured. In other words is there two phases and not neutral and one phase and a neutral. This is important as a neutral would be at zero voltage, but in the two phase system each line would be 110 volts peak to peak. They are very different. Your supply voltage is not the issue, but how it is supplied.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
The problem is not the voltage, but how the AC supply is configured. In other words is there two phases and not neutral and one phase and a neutral. This is important as a neutral would be at zero voltage, but in the two phase system each line would be 110 volts peak to peak. They are very different. Your supply voltage is not the issue, but how it is supplied.
You need to measure the voltage between one of those screws and ground. You might also need a high impedance voltmeter to measure it properly. It is likely a standard multimeter will load it too much to measure the voltage accurately. When working on this sort of equipment you need a high impedance amplified meter.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This is the second thread he has started on this. The intensity of his tingle would indicate that the chassis is at least 30 volts above ground. I would guess from his description that it is in the 30 to 40 volt range.

As I explained in the OP'S previous post, I am certain that his unit was NOT made for India and needs to be replaced. It was I'm sure, made for a country like Indonesia and many others where the AC supply is 110/220 to 120/240 center tapped. So that in those countries at 220 to 240 volts center tapped there, no neutral. So the technique of double insulation will not work. India is like the UK, with 240 volts and a neutral. The US is actually the same with the exception that the houses are wired for 120 volts, unless it is a 240 volt device like a clothes dryer for instance.

We went though all this in the previous thread. So he either he has a grey market unit not deigned for India, or Yamaha packaged the units incorrectly and they have shipped the wrong units to the wrong country.

The situation is that unless he can get that unit replaced he is going to have to dispose of it.
Center tapped configuration has a neutral too and is grounded/earthed at the center tap point. I don't think we have fully determined if he is just getting a phantom/capacitive coupling effects voltage until a properly done measurement is made. If you use an analog voltmeter (not sure if he can easily get/buy one), set it to the 25 V range to make sure the internal impedance is low enough, he will know what the "real" harmful voltage is.

If in fact as reported that, other users found the same, then it would be "normal", i.e. capacitive coupling effects created voltage only but for safety reasons we cannot assume that because he said he was getting sustained tingling sensation if he keep touch the exposed part of the enclousre/chassis. A phantom voltage should not do that, but then it is also possible that his body resistance is somehow lower than usual, and/or standing on bare foot, in a high humidity environment and his fingers were moist. There is just too many if and but to error on the safe side I have to say he needs to assume there is a defect in his unit, even if the other users may be "normal".
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Center tapped configuration has a neutral too and is grounded/earthed at the center tap point. I don't think we have fully determined if he is just getting a phantom/capacitive coupling effects voltage until a properly done measurement is made. If you use an analog voltmeter (not sure if he can easily get/buy one), set it to the 25 V range to make sure the internal impedance is low enough, he will know what the "real" harmful voltage is.

If in fact as reported that, other users found the same, then it would be "normal", i.e. capacitive coupling effects created voltage only but for safety reasons we cannot assume that because he said he was getting sustained tingling sensation if he keep touch the exposed part of the enclousre/chassis. A phantom voltage should not do that, but then it is also possible that his body resistance is somehow lower than usual, and/or standing on bare foot, in a high humidity environment and his fingers were moist. There is just too many if and but to error on the safe side I have to say he needs to assume there is a defect in his unit, even if the other users may be "normal".
If in fact as reported that, other users found the same, then it would be "normal",
well not all users.only some and one of them had bought online.the guy who bought offline doesnt feel any.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You need to measure the voltage between one of those screws and ground. You might also need a high impedance voltmeter to measure it properly. It is likely a standard multimeter will load it too much to measure the voltage accurately. When working on this sort of equipment you need a high impedance amplified meter.
You got it the other way round. While you are correct on the accuracy part, we are not worrying about exactly how many volts in this case, but about if the measured voltage is a phantom/capacitive coupling effects created voltage to ground or not. So you need a meter with low impedance, such as an analog meter with the low range selected. Think "potential divider"..

So agin, he needs to get a meter with low input impedance, such as an old analog meter and set it to the low range. A digital multi-meter that he was likely using would likely have the typical 10 MOhm or higher impedance. While such high impedance does result in accurate voltage measurements as you said, it is not suitable for use to determine if the voltage is just created by capacitive coupling effect.

As a matter of fact, I could get as much as 50 V ac on my Marantz AV8801 (I was surprised too as I expected only a few volts due to the commonly found capacitive effects on the so called "double insulated" , i.e. ungrounde scheme. Then I pulled out my old analog multimeter and it registered the expected low voltage, about 1-1.5 V at the 25 V range and about 40 V on the 500 V range when the impedance would be 2 MOhm, still lower than digital meter's typical 10M Ohm or higher.

I think @Speedskater knows what I am talking about, surely you do too, but you are thinking in terms of accuracy.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
You got it the other way round. While you are correct on the accuracy part, we are not worrying about exactly how many volts in this case, but about if the measured voltage is a phantom/capacitive coupling effects created voltage to ground or not. So you need a meter with low impedance, such as an analog meter with the low range selected. Think "potential divider"..

So agin, he needs to get a meter with low input impedance, such as an old analog meter and set it to the low range. A digital multi-meter that he was likely using would likely have the typical 10 MOhm or higher impedance. While such high impedance does result in accurate voltage measurements as you said, it is not suitable for use to determine if the voltage is just created by capacitive coupling effect.

As a matter of fact, I could get as much as 50 V ac on my Marantz AV8801 (I was surprised too as I expected only a few volts due to the commonly found capacitive effects on the so called "double insulated" , i.e. ungrounde scheme. Then I pulled out my old analog multimeter and it registered the expected low voltage, about 1-1.5 V at the 25 V range and about 40 V on the 500 V range when the impedance would be 2 MOhm, still lower than digital meter's typical 10M Ohm or higher.

I think @Speedskater knows what I am talking about, surely you do too, but you are thinking in terms of accuracy.
My thinking is that since this tingling is sustained, I don't think this is capacitative coupling. This sounds like a voltage that can deliver a sustained current.

The fact that a user who bought off line does not have the problem, clinches the deal for me. His unit was not intended for India. In a country that is 110/220 center tapped, at a 220 volt outlet there is no neutral at the wall plug. That is the issue here. Sure the neutral is center tapped, but that is not anywhere to be found on the receptacle.

India is still a very corrupt country, with Bucksheesh still flowing like water. Due to the British Empire, Buchsheesh is in the British vernacular, but Americans do not usually understand the word. However somewhere along the line there has been Bucksheesh at the root of the OP's problem.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My thinking is that since this tingling is sustained, I don't think this is capacitative coupling. This sounds like a voltage that can deliver a sustained current.
That's what I thought, and said too, but just want to be 1000% certain. Wouldn't hurt to measure if with a good old analog multi-tester with low impedance such as 4 kOhm/V, thought a cheap one such as the one linked below, 8 kOhm/v should work okay too.


Remember the Avometer? I bet you might have one.:D That would be ideal!


1597084499501.png
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
That's what I thought, and said too, but just want to be 1000% certain. Wouldn't hurt to measure if with a good old analog multi-tester with low impedance such as 4 kOhm/V, thought a cheap one such as the one linked below, 8 kOhm/v should work okay too.


Remember the Avometer? I bet you might have one.:D That would be ideal!


View attachment 38714
ok so got the images from the offline yamaha 685 buyer.no current.none.he sent me the images.so settled my avr is faulty and all those who have it are having faulty avrs.i kind of feel all online users are the victims

also one things settled.this guy who has no leakage current on his avr has a "made in malasyia" one.so its not that.it seems certain now that yamaha is having a seriously compromised quality check
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
ok so got the images from the offline yamaha 685 buyer.no current.none.he sent me the images.so settled my avr is faulty and all those who have it are having faulty avrs.i kind of feel all online users are the victims

also one things settled.this guy who has no leakage current on his avr has a "made in malasyia" one.so its not that.it seems certain now that yamaha is having a seriously compromised quality check
Now when you say he had no leakage current, did you really "current", not voltage? Just want to be clear.

Another question, when you touched the unit and got the sensation, were you on bare foot or on some footwear made of insulating material? Also, were you standing on wood floor, rug, or concrete, tiles etc.?
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Now when you say he had no leakage current, did you really "current", not voltage? Just want to be clear.

Another question, when you touched the unit and got the sensation, were you on bare foot or on some footwear made of insulating material? Also, were you standing on wood floor, rug, or concrete, tiles etc.?
aah sorry voltage i meant.
i was standing on tiled floor but neverthless thats not a reason.my avr is definitly a faulty unit.and so are some yamaha avrs.thing i have now understood is that the phrase that yamaha is built like a tank is not apt anymore.this wud need to be conveyed to users who may in future ask and i think yamaha owners have to warn them that the quality is not that good as we thought it to be.there is clearly smthng very badly messed up at yamaha which it probably is aware about and wont admit or its really making huge cuts to its quality testing.otherwise u wont have so many random bad pieces everywhere.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
ok so got the images from the offline yamaha 685 buyer.no current.none.he sent me the images.so settled my avr is faulty and all those who have it are having faulty avrs.i kind of feel all online users are the victims

also one things settled.this guy who has no leakage current on his avr has a "made in malasyia" one.so its not that.it seems certain now that yamaha is having a seriously compromised quality check
The problem is you do not know the provenance of how those AVRs were obtained. Has the seller you bought it from provided proof he is an authorized dealer able to sell those units in India legally? I suspect he is not. I wold bet the factory in Malaysia makes those AVRs for a number of jurisdictions including the US. If you bought that unit from an unauthorized dealer, then it is between you and him, and not Yamaha. If he is an authorized dealer he should easily be able to replace your unit. If he is NOT an authorized dealer you can not blame this on Yamaha.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
That's what I thought, and said too, but just want to be 1000% certain. Wouldn't hurt to measure if with a good old analog multi-tester with low impedance such as 4 kOhm/V, thought a cheap one such as the one linked below, 8 kOhm/v should work okay too.


Remember the Avometer? I bet you might have one.:D That would be ideal!


View attachment 38714
I actually I do have one of those AVO meters. It is an interesting story as to how I obtained it.

I had an itch to own one a few years ago, and won a bid on eBay. I was contacted by a guy that I over bid. Well it turned out he was an expert collector/restorer of AVO meters who resided in the UK.

He told me that the AVO meter I had purchased was a very rare one, and wanted it to complete his collection. So he asked me if I would let him have it and it return he would restore a WWII RAF version of the AVO meter that he had in his possession. I agreed, and somewhat to my surprise this immaculately restored RAF AVO meter arrived from the UK. It was immaculate in every way and contained all the original attachments. It is simply beautiful. I love to think it serviced hurricanes and Spitfires and probably did. It has all its military markings. It is a gorgeous piece. I must take some pictures of it for you.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
The problem is you do not know the provenance of how those AVRs were obtained. Has the seller you bought it from provided proof he is an authorized dealer able to sell those units in India legally? I suspect he is not. I wold bet the factory in Malaysia makes those AVRs for a number of jurisdictions including the US. If you bought that unit from an unauthorized dealer, then it is between you and him, and not Yamaha. If he is an authorized dealer he should easily be able to replace your unit. If he is NOT an authorized dealer you can not blame this on Yamaha.
well the seller says hes authorized.how can i supposedly ask him and do u think he will tell me the truth?and one more thing.the other guy who has same issue bought from another amazon fulfilled seller.so are they all selling grey market items.then for sure this is a bigger scam that amazon is involved in.

secondly if hes unauthorized then isnt amazon guilty here and can they anymore say that they dont have any part in this to play?
lastly i dont know if u know the way stuff works here,mostly sellers take people on a ride in india becuase they very well know people wont normally take them to court and would go ahead with the repair till they meet sm mad people like me who will go to the extent of taking a legal action.

after the consumer forum thru which i wud be sending my legal notice sent a formal mail to yamaha music india they happened to call me today afternoon after being in hibernation for this long.I have sent them all the data i have and have asked them to refund/replace or take it back for free as i am not ok with a repair and i have this strong feeling that this is certainly going to end up in court coz they wont refund/replace and i wont be giving up without a fight

and since u have been telling this i have also put this forward to yamaha and they said they will verify with the serial
number.when they get back i will definitly update here.see i have nothing against or for a particular company but if they confirm that this is made for india then surely this is a really grave issue not becuse
of the voltages etc but its a big question mark on the so called quality of recent yamaha products
 
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