yamaha Avr with electric current on body

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sand87

Audioholic
h
Im curious to know if the vendor for Amazon is indeed an authorized dealer. Judging by Yamaha's response, I'm leaning towards no.
he said so and thats the only pereon who has been genuinely good throught my ordeal.he infact checked his pereonal yamaha devices and also 2 other and all had this.his semms to be residual current but then again i need to measure mine.this is not a seller issue or anythng.yamaha has utterly crap servic ein india at least as if the service centre messes up u have no one to escalate to.they have a support form to fill and send your details to which they send u like an automated response period.
going to buy a multimeter today.only confusion is one lead i put in chasis.whr do i put the other lead at asreference to close the circuit
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
i will answer one by one:-
1.first i experienced a slight tingling effect wen i happened to move the receiver while it was playing.
To confirm i took a screwdriver tester and tested all over.only on all the screws and inside of the vents and on usb ports and the aux and headphone port did the tester light up.Thats how i arrived at the conclusion its current.
2.i dont have any device in hand to measure it still.if smthng needs to be checked i am more than happy to purchase it and give it a go.just let me know wat i need and how to do that.
3.when the unit is connected but the power switch is off--->no issue.tester doesnt light up

when power switch on and the receiver in standby mode-->yes there is current

now switch on the receiver using the remote.now the tester detects current everywhere.

just for info.watever be it but isnt it abnormal to even have leakage current on the screws and metal prts?
Thank you, now I have just a few more questions, or tests:

1) Exactly which part did you touch when you got that "tingling sensation"?

2) Did you get that sensation every time you touch it, and what if you touch it with you finger, remove it then touch it again right away, would you get that same sensation again, and how long would that sensation last?

3) When you get 10 V with your multi-meter, where did you put the red and black probes and did you set it to AC or DA?

If you answer to Q2) is that you get the tingling at first touch, but if you keep touching for say a second, you didn't feel it anymore, and then remove your finger, touch it again within a second and you still don't that tingled, then I would say it is just static electricity you were getting. If you get the same tangling sensation every time you touch it within a short time then for sure it is a continuous leakage current, that may or may not be normal. I would know for sure if I were there to do some test but I am not.

To be on the safe side, I would say regardless, 10 V across the part that you got a shock, and a known ground, such as the ground at the wall outlet does not seem normal. Though depending on the design and the cabling layout, it could be just a capacitive coupling effect. In an extreme case, I have seen up to 50 V of phantom voltage due to capacitive coupling effects on a very long cable. Obviously you should never experience such extreme case in home applications, I am just using an example that phantom voltages are more common than people think.

By the way, 10 V is obviously voltage, not current but I think you know that. What you may not know is that a digital multimeter, and your screw driver tester, typically have very high input impedance so sometimes they can give you a false alarm because the very low leakage current through "normal" capacitive coupling effect could show a pretty high voltage, yes even 10 V is possible depending on other factors, and such normal leakage current could even light up some small neon light indicators and give you a false postive.

It is unbelievable that it is so hard to contact Yamaha, but a quick way to find out is, bring you multi-meter and your screw driver tester to your nearby store that has the RX-V685 and see what you get. If a second unit behaves the same, that should give you at least some peace of mind that it may be normal, while waiting for Yamaha to confirm.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Thank you, now I have just a few more questions, or tests:

1) Exactly which part did you touch when you got that "tingling sensation"?

2) Did you get that sensation every time you touch it, and what if you touch it with you finger, remove it then touch it again right away, would you get that same sensation again, and how long would that sensation last?

3) When you get 10 V with your multi-meter, where did you put the red and black probes and did you set it to AC or DA?

If you answer to Q2) is that you get the tingling at first touch, but if you keep touching for say a second, you didn't feel it anymore, and then remove your finger, touch it again within a second and you still don't that tingled, then I would say it is just static electricity you were getting. If you get the same tangling sensation every time you touch it within a short time then for sure it is a continuous leakage current, that may or may not be normal. I would know for sure if I were there to do some test but I am not.

To be on the safe side, I would say regardless, 10 V across the part that you got a shock, and a known ground, such as the ground at the wall outlet does not seem normal. Though depending on the design and the cabling layout, it could be just a capacitive coupling effect. In an extreme case, I have seen up to 50 V of phantom voltage due to capacitive coupling effects on a very long cable. Obviously you should never experience such extreme case in home applications, I am just using an example that phantom voltages are more common than people think.

By the way, 10 V is obviously voltage, not current but I think you know that. What you may not know is that a digital multimeter, and your screw driver tester, typically have very high input impedance so sometimes they can give you a false alarm because the very low leakage current through "normal" capacitive coupling effect could show a pretty high voltage, yes even 10 V is possible depending on other factors, and such normal leakage current could even light up some small neon light indicators and give you a false postive.

It is unbelievable that it is so hard to contact Yamaha, but a quick way to find out is, bring you multi-meter and your screw driver tester to your nearby store that has the RX-V685 and see what you get. If a second unit behaves the same, that should give you at least some peace of mind that it may be normal, while waiting for Yamaha to confirm.
Thank you, now I have just a few more questions, or tests:

1) Exactly which part did you touch when you got that "tingling sensation"?

2) Did you get that sensation every time you touch it, and what if you touch it with you finger, remove it then touch it again right away, would you get that same sensation again, and how long would that sensation last?

3) When you get 10 V with your multi-meter, where did you put the red and black probes and did you set it to AC or DA?

If you answer to Q2) is that you get the tingling at first touch, but if you keep touching for say a second, you didn't feel it anymore, and then remove your finger, touch it again within a second and you still don't that tingled, then I would say it is just static electricity you were getting. If you get the same tangling sensation every time you touch it within a short time then for sure it is a continuous leakage current, that may or may not be normal. I would know for sure if I were there to do some test but I am not.

To be on the safe side, I would say regardless, 10 V across the part that you got a shock, and a known ground, such as the ground at the wall outlet does not seem normal. Though depending on the design and the cabling layout, it could be just a capacitive coupling effect. In an extreme case, I have seen up to 50 V of phantom voltage due to capacitive coupling effects on a very long cable. Obviously you should never experience such extreme case in home applications, I am just using an example that phantom voltages are more common than people think.

By the way, 10 V is obviously voltage, not current but I think you know that. What you may not know is that a digital multimeter, and your screw driver tester, typically have very high input impedance so sometimes they can give you a false alarm because the very low leakage current through "normal" capacitive coupling effect could show a pretty high voltage, yes even 10 V is possible depending on other factors, and such normal leakage current could even light up some small neon light indicators and give you a false postive.

It is unbelievable that it is so hard to contact Yamaha, but a quick way to find out is, bring you multi-meter and your screw driver tester to your nearby store that has the RX-V685 and see what you get. If a second unit behaves the same, that should give you at least some peace of mind that it may be normal, while waiting for Yamaha to confirm.
My answers are marked in red.
1) Exactly which part did you touch when you got that "tingling sensation"?
Any mettallic part which isnt painted.screws,inside of vents,usb port,aux port.If i connect ipod to USB port i will continuosly have an uneasy feeling like a continuous vibration or tingling like the massager u wud put on your body in physio sessions and if u increase the vibration to uncomfortable levels.

2.)Did you get that sensation every time you touch it, and what if you touch it with you finger, remove it then touch it again right away, would you get that same sensation again, and how long would that sensation last?

Yes everytime i touch.even if i touch and remove and touch again its there.It will last till i dont remove my finger but i will remove it due to the shock kind of feeling.

3.)When you get 10 V with your multi-meter, where did you put the red and black probes and did you set it to AC or DA?
Red probe on ground socket and black on body.Set it to AC limit 600V.

4.)It is unbelievable that it is so hard to contact Yamaha, but a quick way to find out is, bring you multi-meter and your screw driver tester to your nearby store that has the RX-V685 and see what you get. If a second unit behaves the same, that should give you at least some peace of mind that it may be normal, while waiting for Yamaha to confirm.

First the nearest shop is 4 Hrs away.and in these covid times difficult to get too and then too they may not allow to do that on a new device and i dont know anybody who has this nearby.Leave alone this model.Not even any yamaha model.Thats why i have been asking indian forum users and i guess many have said they dont have such current and its ideal since if it were people would be able to connect their devices.
 

Attachments

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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My answers are marked in red.
1) Exactly which part did you touch when you got that "tingling sensation"?
Any mettallic part which isnt painted.screws,inside of vents,usb port,aux port.If i connect ipod to USB port i will continuosly have an uneasy feeling like a continuous vibration or tingling like the massager u wud put on your body in physio sessions and if u increase the vibration to uncomfortable levels.

2.)Did you get that sensation every time you touch it, and what if you touch it with you finger, remove it then touch it again right away, would you get that same sensation again, and how long would that sensation last?

Yes everytime i touch.even if i touch and remove and touch again its there.It will last till i dont remove my finger but i will remove it due to the shock kind of feeling.

3.)When you get 10 V with your multi-meter, where did you put the red and black probes and did you set it to AC or DA?
Red probe on ground socket and black on body.Set it to AC limit 600V.

4.)It is unbelievable that it is so hard to contact Yamaha, but a quick way to find out is, bring you multi-meter and your screw driver tester to your nearby store that has the RX-V685 and see what you get. If a second unit behaves the same, that should give you at least some peace of mind that it may be normal, while waiting for Yamaha to confirm.

First the nearest shop is 4 Hrs away.and in these covid times difficult to get too and then too they may not allow to do that on a new device and i dont know anybody who has this nearby.Leave alone this model.Not even any yamaha model.Thats why i have been asking indian forum users and i guess many have said they dont have such current and its ideal since if it were people would be able to connect their devices.
Thank you for the detailed response. I just want to be sure that you are not worrying about something that could be normal. Now I am confident to say you have a defect in your unit and you should return it. 10 V is not a concern in terms of voltage level, but if (and it likely is) it is due to a wiring defect or something, it might get worse and become unsafe. Again, you should return it asap even if it is otherwise functioning properly.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Thank you for the detailed response. I just want to be sure that you are not worrying about something that could be normal. Now I am confident to say you have a defect in your unit and you should return it. 10 V is not a concern in terms of voltage level, but if (and it likely is) it is due to a wiring defect or something, it might get worse and become unsafe. Again, you should return it asap even if it is otherwise functioning properly.
well yeah.only thing is yamaha has no
1.chat support
2.no escalation mail id

support has a form to be filled to which i received a pretty bland reply.see the attachment.if they repair it as they say they will i dont want to use the product anymore just because i didnt pay for a costly avr to get it repaired for such srs issues.but again shameless as yamaha india is they wont relent.sending a legal notice next week but i suppose they will just again offer free repair.thats it
 

Attachments

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Speedskater

Audioholic Chief
Three notes:
1] some Non Contact Voltage Probes are very sensitive. In my home garage with all the breakers off. my NCVP can pick up leakage in one circuit from the power company transformer, some 20 feet away.
2] modern DMM Volt meters can read what electricians call phantom voltage, from a wire that is not connected but very near other wires that are powered.
3] the human body forms a capacitor with Planet Earth. Even on a wool rug over a wood floor, I could feel leakage from an old lamp that had a Hot/ Neutral swap.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Three notes:
1] some Non Contact Voltage Probes are very sensitive. In my home garage with all the breakers off. my NCVP can pick up leakage in one circuit from the power company transformer, some 20 feet away.
2] modern DMM Volt meters can read what electricians call phantom voltage, from a wire that is not connected but very near other wires that are powered.
3] the human body forms a capacitor with Planet Earth. Even on a wool rug over a wood floor, I could feel leakage from an old lamp that had a Hot/ Neutral swap.
well wud u then say that the electric shock that i am getting on touching the body of my amp is a normal thing?
 
Brian Steele

Brian Steele

Enthusiast
Just a thought - did you have any external equipment (TV, cable, etc.) plugged into the amplifier when you performed this test?

I ran into a similar issue like this some time ago. Turned out to be the cable. Which was plugged into the cable box. Which was in turn plugged into the receiver. Attaching a ground strap from the cable to the house ground cured the problem.
 
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sand87

Audioholic
Just a thought - did you have any external equipment (TV, cable, etc.) plugged into the amplifier when you performed this test?

I ran into a similar issue like this some time ago. Turned out to be the cable. Which was plugged into the cable box. Which was in turn plugged into the receiver. Attaching a ground strap from the cable to the house ground cured the problem.
no .though i always wished it was like that.reason is i am now stuck with this defective piece. can only repair and not refund or replace.even contemplating giving it to service centre for free to keep it
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
well wud u then say that the electric shock that i am getting on touching the body of my amp is a normal thing?
No, I already cited examples as Speedskater did, and that's why I asked so many questions that you answered them all. So I know in your case it is not a phantom voltage due to capacitive effects. If it is, you won't get that constant feeling. Unintentional leakage current from capacitive coupling is not enough to give you that sensation on sustained basis, but one that results from defective, or failed components/parts or wiring could.

Put it that way, if this is "normal" for a Yamaha AVR that it is a very bad design, perhaps @3db who is an EE, can do some measurements on his several AVRs and see if he gets the same "normalcy..", I hope not, or I would have to stop recommending Yamaha AVRs on AH.:D
 
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sand87

Audioholic
No, I already cited examples as Speedskater did, and that's why I asked so many questions that you answered them all. So I know in your case it is not a phantom voltage due to capacitive effects. If it is, you won't get that constant feeling. Unintentional leakage current from capacitive coupling is not enough to give you that sensation on sustained basis, but one that results from defective, or failed components/parts or wiring could.

Put it that way, if this is "normal" for a Yamaha AVR that it is a very bad design, perhaps @3db who is an EE, can do some measurements on his several AVRs and see if he gets the same "normalcy..", I hope not, or I would have to stop recommending Yamaha AVRs on AH.:D
Yes i feel that too.This is becoming greatly complicated.As i speak on reditt another indian user checked his and found the same on his.This is why i am asking every yamaha user(india/elsewhere) to check this because if its there and no one is aware then this should get escalated to yamaha so that at least in future us or for that matter anyone else doesnt have to go through the mental agony.Can @3db please verify??It would be great if he could.

I have another doubt.Is this
1. region related
2.Country of make related
3.Series related like only RX-V and/or if premium line avantage receivers dont have this.
4.Like once with iphones, is only a certain batch of recievers facing this?

I asked the 4th question because there has to be a logical explanation for some guys to be saying they dont see this on their models but on sm other models.Because either its the above points or us users havent tested it yet which again i find difficult to believe because someone should have sometime got a mild shock if it was there on every device.This keeps on getting murkier.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes i feel that too.This is becoming greatly complicated.As i speak on reditt another indian user checked his and found the same on his.This is why i am asking every yamaha user(india/elsewhere) to check this because if its there and no one is aware then this should get escalated to yamaha so that at least in future us or for that matter anyone else doesnt have to go through the mental agony.Can @3db please verify??It would be great if he could.

I have another doubt.Is this
1. region related
2.Country of make related
3.Series related like only RX-V and/or if premium line avantage receivers dont have this.
4.Like once with iphones, is only a certain batch of recievers facing this?

I asked the 4th question because there has to be a logical explanation for some guys to be saying they dont see this on their models but on sm other models.Because either its the above points or us users havent tested it yet which again i find difficult to believe because someone should have sometime got a mild shock if it was there on every device.This keeps on getting murkier.
If they are all like that then it is likely normal for that design, but a bad design then.. I measured my Denon, got a few mV, that is really normal. I have many amps and I am sure they all measure in the mV range.

Let's hope 3 dB can give us a report as his Yamaha models are very different than yours. I volunteer him because I am sure he has at least one meter, and know how to take the required measurements.:D

One other thing you can do to see how "normal" this is. I don't suppose you have a 1 kOhm or higher resistor, but you can touch the thing where you could feel that tingling sensation and then if that 10 V would drop to near 0.

If it is normal, it should drop significantly because such unintentional phantom voltage created by capacitive effects should not be able to sustain 10 V to earth at the chassis when you load it down with a current high enough that you can feel it.
 
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sand87

Audioholic
If they are all like that then it is likely normal for that design, but a bad design then.. I measured my Denon, got a few mV, that is really normal. I have many amps and I am sure they all measure in the mV range.

Let's hope 3 dB can give us a report as his Yamaha models are very different than yours. I volunteer him because I am sure he has at least one meter, and know how to take the required measurements.:D

One other thing you can do to see how "normal" this is. I don't suppose you have a 1 kOhm or higher resistor, but you can touch the thing where you could feel that tingling sensation and then if that 10 V would drop to near 0.

If it is normal, it should drop significantly because such unintentional phantom voltage created by capacitive effects should not be able to sustain 10 V to earth at the chassis when you load it down with a current high enough that you can feel it.
hey its not that low to touch it intentionally
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
hey its not that low to touch it intentionally
What do you mean by that, you mean the tingling sensation is so strong and sustain that you don't want to touch it? If it is that bad, and that's what I thought based on your answers to my previous questions, then it is definitely not normal.

In North America, we typically consider up to 30 V ac as safe to humans to touch (accidentally..), but don't touch it intentionally for sure. So 10 V is not a problem even if it is real. In your case, I still think it is more likely due to capacitive coupling that could be normal depending on the design, but I would again say it is a bad design if it is more than a few volts, even for phantoms. Not trying to double talk, but on one hand I think your 10 V is just a phantom, capacitive coupling resulted voltage, but then if it is, then I cannot explain why you would get sustained tangling sensation if you keep touching it, that is, without letting go, unless I misunderstood.

Here is an easy to understand wiki article on stray, or phantom voltage due to capacitive coupling that I mentioned before, please read at least the highlighted part:


Stray/contact voltage detection
Stray voltage is generally discovered during routine electrical work, or as a result of a customer complaint or shock incident. A growing number of utilities in urban areas now conduct routine periodic and systematic active tests for stray voltage (or more specifically, contact voltage) for public safety reasons. Some incipient electrical faults may also be discovered during routine work or inspection programs which are not specifically focused on stray voltage.

Equipment used to detect stray voltage varies, but common devices are electrical tester pens or electric field detectors, with follow-up testing using a low-impedance voltmeter. Electrical tester pens are hand-held devices which detect a potential difference between the user's hand and the object being tested. They generally indicate on contact with an energized object, if the potential difference is above the sensitivity threshold of the device. Reliability of the test can be affected if the user is at an elevated potential him/herself, or if the user is not making firm contact with a bare hand on the reference terminal of the tester.

"Capacitive coupling is the mechanism used by electrical tester pen devices. Because the capacitance between an object and a current source is typically small, only very small currents can flow from the energized source to the coupled object. High-impedance digital or analog voltmeters may measure elevated voltages from non-energized objects due to this coupling, in effect providing a misleading reading. For this reason, high-impedance voltage measurements of normally non-energized objects must be verified.

Verification of a voltage reading is performed using a low-impedance voltmeter, which usually has a shunt resistor load bridging the voltmeter terminals. Since very little current can flow from a coupled surface through the small shunt or meter resistance, capacitively coupled voltages will collapse to zero, indicating a harmless "false alarm". By contrast, if an object being tested is in contact with a current source, or coupled by a very large capacitance (possible but unlikely in this context), the voltage will drop only slightly as dictated by Ohm's Law. In this latter case, real power is being delivered, indicating a potentially hazardous situation. "
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
What do you mean by that, you mean the tingling sensation is so strong and sustain that you don't want to touch it? If it is that bad, and that's what I thought based on your answers to my previous questions, then it is definitely not normal.

In North America, we typically consider up to 30 V ac as safe to humans to touch (accidentally..), but don't touch it intentionally for sure. So 10 V is not a problem even if it is real. In your case, I still think it is more likely due to capacitive coupling that could be normal depending on the design, but I would again say it is a bad design if it is more than a few volts, even for phantoms. Not trying to double talk, but on one hand I think your 10 V is just a phantom, capacitive coupling resulted voltage, but then if it is, then I cannot explain why you would get sustained tangling sensation if you keep touching it, that is, without letting go, unless I misunderstood.

Here is an easy to understand wiki article on stray, or phantom voltage due to capacitive coupling that I mentioned before, please read at least the highlighted part:


Stray/contact voltage detection
Stray voltage is generally discovered during routine electrical work, or as a result of a customer complaint or shock incident. A growing number of utilities in urban areas now conduct routine periodic and systematic active tests for stray voltage (or more specifically, contact voltage) for public safety reasons. Some incipient electrical faults may also be discovered during routine work or inspection programs which are not specifically focused on stray voltage.

Equipment used to detect stray voltage varies, but common devices are electrical tester pens or electric field detectors, with follow-up testing using a low-impedance voltmeter. Electrical tester pens are hand-held devices which detect a potential difference between the user's hand and the object being tested. They generally indicate on contact with an energized object, if the potential difference is above the sensitivity threshold of the device. Reliability of the test can be affected if the user is at an elevated potential him/herself, or if the user is not making firm contact with a bare hand on the reference terminal of the tester.

"Capacitive coupling is the mechanism used by electrical tester pen devices. Because the capacitance between an object and a current source is typically small, only very small currents can flow from the energized source to the coupled object. High-impedance digital or analog voltmeters may measure elevated voltages from non-energized objects due to this coupling, in effect providing a misleading reading. For this reason, high-impedance voltage measurements of normally non-energized objects must be verified.

Verification of a voltage reading is performed using a low-impedance voltmeter, which usually has a shunt resistor load bridging the voltmeter terminals. Since very little current can flow from a coupled surface through the small shunt or meter resistance, capacitively coupled voltages will collapse to zero, indicating a harmless "false alarm". By contrast, if an object being tested is in contact with a current source, or coupled by a very large capacitance (possible but unlikely in this context), the voltage will drop only slightly as dictated by Ohm's Law. In this latter case, real power is being delivered, indicating a potentially hazardous situation. "
yes i do get sustained sensation till i remove my hand or finger from the screws etc.its strong enough to notice but just less than if u put ur finger into a socket(i have done that in my childhood and still remeber that feeling).residual current is fine and this is not that.this is higher.how i wish i could
measure the current.it wud have been so helpful.
confusing only because as i said only online purchased users are complaining or getting this not offline buyers.could be the offline buyers didnt test it but still if it was as bad a tingling that i got they wud definitly notice its there.
have sent a legal notice for refund.else if they dont buckle wud repair and sell it off as i am done wih this but i wonder if i shud ever in future go for a yamaha receiver...even the aventage series.denons am not so sure.the only one left is marantz but then they too belong to sound united and i have heard some board failure issues with denon and the warm signature too.again since i havent heard them cant be so sure.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Wow Sand87. Never ever experienced anything like that at all. Your AVR has a serious defect. I will do some voltage measurements of some exposed screws with respect to ground to see what I get.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow Sand87. Never ever experienced anything like that at all. Your AVR has a serious defect. I will do some voltage measurements of some exposed screws with respect to ground to see what I get.
See if you can load it down with a 1 k, 5j or even 10 kOhm resistor, otherwise you will likely get quite a bit of voltage on your digital multimeter. Or if you have an analog multi-meter then you will have a better chance getting a real reading instead of a phantom one.
 

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