yamaha Avr with electric current on body

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
well i didnt.they did.but let me ask u a thing i never get a clarity from neither here nor yamaha.is electric voltage normal on the body of a yamaha.if yes then why many across same or diff models dont.and if it isnt normal as even yamaha suggests then why is it there on many models.wen i ask yamaha they can never answer.they thanked me for flagging this but even they are confused it seems.

let me ask this ques diff:-
some apple iphone 11 brand new will retain chrg for 3 hrs and sm will retain for 6 hrs.the issue is not if i can manage by chegng more number of times.my ques is,is it ok or not?

please note am not arguing.again trying to understand stuff
Let me be clear about what could be normal and what would not be:

1) Normal: If a digital voltmeter is used, you will typically get a significant voltage between chassis and ground, "real ground, earth.." as TLSGuy mentioned too. That kind of voltage is not harmful unless it is due to something wrong with the wiring, layout, and or components/parts. It is often referred to terms like "phantom", "ghost" voltage.

Possible reasons:

- In an ungrounded unit, there are always "live" part inside that are in close proximity to exposed parts and/or separated by insulating material that and the non insulated parts of the chasis. Such small air gaps and/or the dielectric could/would therefore act like the dielectric between the the electrodes (the + and -) of a capacitor connected between those "live" parts and the exposed parts (metallic) of the chassis including the non insulated screws.

- Digital voltmeters typically have very high impedance such as 10 MOhm or higher so it will draw very little current and the capitive coupling effects is strong enough to supply and sustain such low current. (example: 0.5 micro amperes for 5 V into 10 Megga Ohm.)

2) Normal: If an analog voltmeter is used, you will typically get much lower voltage but it is important to select the lowest possible range, such as 5 V or 10 V, but not more than 25 V. For safety practice, almost start at a higher voltage range, in your case that means 250 V,, and you will see very little deflection, almost 0, then turn the range to the lowest possible, such as 5, 10, or 25 V but not higher.

Reason: Analog voltmeter may have impedance as low as 20 kOhm if set to say the 5 V range. That will draw 0.25 mA and a typical voltage due to capacitive coupling effects cannot sustain such high current. If you set the analog meter to the maximum voltage range such as 500 V or 1,000 V, it would likely register a high voltage too but it will most likely be still below just a few volts to 5 volts at the most, but again only if the voltage is not from something being defective or poor designs.

3) Normal: You will almost always get different voltages between different units because for an ungrounded devices such as your Yamaha unit, the voltage only exist because of capacitive coupling effects, and that varies a lot depending on the circuit board and devices layout, size and types of the transformer(s) used. If you get more than a few volts such as 5 V, then there is an issue with either the design or quality control, or even a defective part somewhere.

4) Not normal: If you touch any parts of the chassis, or enclosure, insulated or not and could sense a current passing through your body.

5) Not normal: If you are getting more than a few volts between anywhere including the non insulated mounting screws, RCA connectors etc., and "ground", but again as TLSGuy told you already, it must be a "true ground". If you don't have a known "true" ground that is easily accessible safely then you should leave that job to someone who is qualifed to do it safely.

6) Not normal: If the "leakage" voltage to ground is only 5 V ac or even 10 V ac, and you could feel it then something else is wrong, could be the measuring method, the meter itself or something else we don't know such as if your body skin was very moist, on barefoot and standing on material that is not insulated to ground at all such as concrete, certain tiles etc., instead of wooden floor or think rugs.

So while TLSGuy has given you the short version, I am repeating the basic points he cited but provide you will more detailed explanation.

One thing I would like to emphasize is that you should never touch any non insulated parts of your Yamaha AVR, or even any other electrically powered devices when you are on bare foot or non insulating foot wear and it your body skin is wet or even just moist. This should be common sense, even in countries where the mains voltage is as low as 100 V such as Japan. And by now you should know the reason from your own real life experience.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Let me be clear about what could be normal and what would not be:

1) Normal: If a digital voltmeter is used, you will typically get a significant voltage between chassis and ground, "real ground, earth.." as TLSGuy mentioned too. That kind of voltage is not harmful unless it is due to something wrong with the wiring, layout, and or components/parts. It is often referred to terms like "phantom", "ghost" voltage.

Possible reasons:

- In an ungrounded unit, there are always "live" part inside that are in close proximity to exposed parts and/or separated by insulating material that and the non insulated parts of the chasis. Such small air gaps and/or the dielectric could/would therefore act like the dielectric between the the electrodes (the + and -) of a capacitor connected between those "live" parts and the exposed parts (metallic) of the chassis including the non insulated screws.

- Digital voltmeters typically have very high impedance such as 10 MOhm or higher so it will draw very little current and the capitive coupling effects is strong enough to supply and sustain such low current. (example: 0.5 micro amperes for 5 V into 10 Megga Ohm.)

2) Normal: If an analog voltmeter is used, you will typically get much lower voltage but it is important to select the lowest possible range, such as 5 V or 10 V, but not more than 25 V. For safety practice, almost start at a higher voltage range, in your case that means 250 V,, and you will see very little deflection, almost 0, then turn the range to the lowest possible, such as 5, 10, or 25 V but not higher.

Reason: Analog voltmeter may have impedance as low as 20 kOhm if set to say the 5 V range. That will draw 0.25 mA and a typical voltage due to capacitive coupling effects cannot sustain such high current. If you set the analog meter to the maximum voltage range such as 500 V or 1,000 V, it would likely register a high voltage too but it will most likely be still below just a few volts to 5 volts at the most, but again only if the voltage is not from something being defective or poor designs.

3) Normal: You will almost always get different voltages between different units because for an ungrounded devices such as your Yamaha unit, the voltage only exist because of capacitive coupling effects, and that varies a lot depending on the circuit board and devices layout, size and types of the transformer(s) used. If you get more than a few volts such as 5 V, then there is an issue with either the design or quality control, or even a defective part somewhere.

4) Not normal: If you touch any parts of the chassis, or enclosure, insulated or not and could sense a current passing through your body.

5) Not normal: If you are getting more than a few volts between anywhere including the non insulated mounting screws, RCA connectors etc., and "ground", but again as TLSGuy told you already, it must be a "true ground". If you don't have a known "true" ground that is easily accessible safely then you should leave that job to someone who is qualifed to do it safely.

6) Not normal: If the "leakage" voltage to ground is only 5 V ac or even 10 V ac, and you could feel it then something else is wrong, could be the measuring method, the meter itself or something else we don't know such as if your body skin was very moist, on barefoot and standing on material that is not insulated to ground at all such as concrete, certain tiles etc., instead of wooden floor or think rugs.

So while TLSGuy has given you the short version, I am repeating the basic points he cited but provide you will more detailed explanation.

One thing I would like to emphasize is that you should never touch any non insulated parts of your Yamaha AVR, or even any other electrically powered devices when you are on bare foot or non insulating foot wear and it your body skin is wet or even just moist. This should be common sense, even in countries where the mains voltage is as low as 100 V such as Japan. And by now you should know the reason from your own real life experience.
My Questions and answers to wat u have mentioned.Correct me if i am wrong.Please note these readings am about to say have been taken by the technicians at authorized yamaha service centre in front of me when i went in for the verification.

1) Normal: If a digital voltmeter is used, you will typically get a significant voltage between chassis and ground, "real ground, earth.." as TLSGuy mentioned too. That kind of voltage is not harmful unless it is due to something wrong with the wiring, layout, and or components/parts. It is often referred to terms like "phantom", "ghost" voltage.

On a digital voltmeter i get 10V to 18V if while connecting the multimeter btw a chasis screw(i mean an outer screw) and a proper ground(the earthing pin) i have any body part touching the chasis(the part where i dont feel electric voltage or the shock type)

2) Normal: If an analog voltmeter is used, you will typically get much lower voltage but it is important to select the lowest possible range, such as 5 V or 10 V, but not more than 25 V. For safety practice, almost start at a higher voltage range, in your case that means 250 V,, and you will see very little deflection, almost 0, then turn the range to the lowest possible, such as 5, 10, or 25 V but not higher.

Using my analog multimeter the yamaha service centre guy set the range to lowest that is 10V and then put a pin to the chasis outer screw and true ground that is the ground earthing pin.Then they saw 5V AC.

5) Not normal: If you are getting more than a few volts between anywhere including the non insulated mounting screws, RCA connectors etc., and "ground", but again as TLSGuy told you already, it must be a "true ground". If you don't have a known "true" ground that is easily accessible safely then you should leave that job to someone who is qualifed to do it safely.

I dont think 5V is very normal.Also time and again i am reiterating thats its not be but yamaha saying that electric leakage voltage on their devices isnt normal and that my device is an outlier.You are failing to understand that its not me thats saying it is.Also when argued about why another similar model has it they do a 180 degree flip and say thats normal. Thats what i am unable to understand.Both cant be true rt.

6) Not normal: If the "leakage" voltage to ground is only 5 V ac or even 10 V ac, and you could feel it then something else is wrong, could be the measuring method, the meter itself or something else we don't know such as if your body skin was very moist, on barefoot and standing on material that is not insulated to ground at all such as concrete, certain tiles etc., instead of wooden floor or think rugs.

I feel and think that most people in india dont have wooden floors or rugs on their floors and most have tiled or concrete floors but these very same guys dont get shocks while touching other 2 pin items or even a Ymaha AVR like the other guy who i contacted.Even his tester doesnt light up on the yamaha AVR.

One thing I would like to emphasize is that you should never touch any non insulated parts of your Yamaha AVR,

How about connecting an ipod to the usb port and getting a shock while touching the ipod to scroll?How abot connecting an aux cable to the port and getting a mild shock from the device connected to that ?

This is similar to what the seller told me.Why use usb when u have bluetooth?Why use AUX wen u can very well use Airplay.Why use headphone out when u can very well use wireless headphones.I think thats a bumkum explanation aint it?


Thing is am not trying to argue here with anybody but just trying to figure stuff out as even yamaha doesnt seem to be forthright.

When i say mine got voltage and mild shock they say its only on ur AVR and none other.When i add its there on other AVR too they say ok its normal,a bit of voltage.When i further say a third guy with the same model doesn't have it Yamaha just starts speaking about their service quality...how they have been servicing customers for years blah blah without ever answering that.

Reason not even I can reason with something when i make 3 devices that behave differently unless i agree its usually a hit and miss or that i have a serious issue with my quality testing.Something that only a branch head of Yamaha kind of accepted yesterday when he said that he will report this matter.

Thing is we can go round and round talking about voltages etc but the thing is its yamaha itself thats giving self contradictory messages.
i have talked to other technicians workig in this field who have been pretty clear that mine is a problem with SMPS or a transformer issue.A service centre also suggested the first time it heard that this is an issue and even they were surprised when they heard such variable experience across consumers.Reason many at least those i have contacted still dont inform yamaha and thats what the company guys too implied while talking to me.most people just throw a wire from the outer screw,ground it and call it a day and some as the seller said never uses wired aux or headphones just to avoid this uneasy mild shock.But that doesnt spare yamaha from the fact that different devices from their same model behave differently.Adjusting with the issue or not getting killed by the voltage is one thing but hey if i wanted to always get that mild shock i never needed to pay a good amt of money and buy a brand new device,when there are easier ways to do that isnt it!!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
At 5 volts it would not even do that with no shoes and wet feet.
Just a cautionary note, even 5 V ac could be harmful under certain conditions, however unlikely such conditions may be, it could happen. Example: exceptionally low body resistance to ground (bare foot, wet skin, broken skin, certain floor material), non insulated aluminium ladder on wet tile, concrete, cement floor, form of contact etc...) Again, it could be a condition that rarely or may never happen but could happen. As example, in industries, 30 V ac or 50 V dc are often considered safe to touch but that is only because workers are required to wear PPE that includes approved safety shoes, safety glasses, hard hats etc., and insulating gloves for electricians, and the workers are trained appropriately to follow all sorts of safety procedures. Standards are subject to change, often becoming more stringent. For example, in Canada, the the minimum threshold for potentially-hazardous energy has been reduced from 50 V to 30 V ac. Ref: CSA Z462-18 Work place electrical safety. CSA used to consider such "safe" voltage for DC to be higher but have since removed that distinction.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Just a cautionary note, even 5 V ac could be harmful under certain conditions, however unlikely such conditions may be, it could happen. Example: exceptionally low body resistance to ground (bare foot, wet skin, broken skin, certain floor material), non insulated aluminium ladder on wet tile, concrete, cement floor, form of contact etc...) Again, it could be a condition that rarely or may never happen but could happen. As example, in industries, 30 V ac or 50 V dc are often considered safe to touch but that is only because workers are required to wear PPE that includes approved safety shoes, safety glasses, hard hats etc., and insulating gloves for electricians, and the workers are trained appropriately to follow all sorts of safety procedures. Standards are subject to change, often becoming more stringent. For example, in Canada, the the minimum threshold for potentially-hazardous energy has been reduced from 50 V to 30 V ac. Ref: CSA Z462-18 Work place electrical safety. CSA used to consider such "safe" voltage for DC to be higher but have since removed that distinction.
Thanks Pen for that info too.These details have been really helpful and when i throw questions around here its only because for the past two weeks yamaha dealers and service centres and since last one week people at yamaha india company/headquarters have been trying to take me round and round saying anything they want .
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Using my analog multimeter the yamaha service centre guy set the range to lowest that is 10V and then put a pin to the chasis outer screw and true ground that is the ground earthing pin.Then they saw 5V AC.
Assuming he did everything right (I am not there so I can only assume), then you should return the unit for an exchange or refund. If not, insist that they them fix it for you.

I dont think 5V is very normal.Also time and again i am reiterating thats its not be but yamaha saying that electric leakage voltage on their devices isnt normal and that my device is an outlier.You are failing to understand that its not me thats saying it is.Also when argued about why another similar model has it they do a 180 degree flip and say thats normal. Thats what i am unable to understand.Both cant be true rt.
You know I am saying the same thing that 5 V is not normal if measured with an analog meter on the 10 V range and was done properly (assumed) by the service technician. So if Yamaha tell you it is normal one time and not normal another time then you should ask them for a final definitive answer and if they insist it is normal then ask them why you are getting a shock every time you touch it. Caution: if you were on bare foot and tile that you mentioned before, they may use that as excuse, hopefully they are better than that.:D They may also ask if your skin was wet, or moist.. Bottom line is, if it is normal, you should not be getting perceptible current through your body each time you touch it. The only "normal" shock you might get is from static electricity that should be just momentary, not in successions so what you are getting is not from static as we agreed long time ago.

I feel and think that most people in india dont have wooden floors or rugs on their floors and most have tiled or concrete floors but these very same guys dont get shocks while touching other 2 pin items or even a Ymaha AVR like the other guy who i contacted.Even his tester doesnt light up on the yamaha AVR.
Agreed, but you already know your device is giving you that "shock" so why risk yourself? You should stop using the unit until it gets resolved, safety first! I mentioned those things only as safety precautions for taking measurements as you indicated you have done already since your first post. So again, those are just safety measures for during troubleshooting if and when someone already know that is something not normal but want to take some electrical measurements. If you are not a qualified electrician or technician it is best left it to the service shop as you have now.

How about connecting an ipod to the usb port and getting a shock while touching the ipod to scroll?How abot connecting an aux cable to the port and getting a mild shock from the device connected to that ?

This is similar to what the seller told me.Why use usb when u have bluetooth?Why use AUX wen u can very well use Airplay.Why use headphone out when u can very well use wireless headphones.I think thats a bumkum explanation aint it?
I would say, stop using the unit, unplug it, pack it and set it back to the seller or the repair shop depending on what you can get Yamaha agree to do.

Thing is am not trying to argue here with anybody but just trying to figure stuff out as even yamaha doesnt seem to be forthright.
No one is arguing, except apparently Yamaha, may be, if I understood correctly..:D


When i say mine got voltage and mild shock they say its only on ur AVR and none other.When i add its there on other AVR too they say ok its normal,a bit of voltage.When i further say a third guy with the same model doesn't have it Yamaha just starts speaking about their service quality...how they have been servicing customers for years blah blah without ever answering that.
In the US and Canada, people seem to be getting good service from Yamaha, is there anyway you can elevate your complaint by requesting to talk to someone in higher positions?

Something that only a branch head of Yamaha kind of accepted yesterday when he said that he will report this matter.
So that branch head guy is going to get back to you then?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks Pen for that info too.These details have been really helpful and when i throw questions around here its only because for the past two weeks yamaha dealers and service centres and since last one week people at yamaha india company/headquarters have been trying to take me round and round saying anything they want .
I hope you emphasized the point that this is a safety issue, especially if you have kids at home. People tend to take things more serious when advised it is a safety concern, not just some sort of malfunctioning.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
thing is for starters the voltage shouldnt even be there considering the fact that we can now safely say that its not my local distribution or anythng thats at fault.what i am alao saying is that yamaha has serious quality control issues.am not a genius but having voltage on one 685 while not having in another,having voltage in a rx A770 but not having it on an 880..having voltage on an 803...and theblist goes on.remember even in these many receivers the variations are glaring to start with.as i am saying time and again is that the ques no more is if its harmful or not but the fact that its a defect,considering that it doesnt exist on all.u cant have two 685's not have it and 2 others have it.
OK, so you felt the tingle when you touched the receiver alone and not at the same time as another piece of equipment with bare feet or socks/ no shoes, touching nothing else- am I correct?

If this is the only piece of equipment with this problem, it's not your electrical service.
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Assuming he did everything right (I am not there so I can only assume), then you should return the unit for an exchange or refund. If not, insist that they them fix it for you.



You know I am saying the same thing that 5 V is not normal if measured with an analog meter on the 10 V range and was done properly (assumed) by the service technician. So if Yamaha tell you it is normal one time and not normal another time then you should ask them for a final definitive answer and if they insist it is normal then ask them why you are getting a shock every time you touch it. Caution: if you were on bare foot and tile that you mentioned before, they may use that as excuse, hopefully they are better than that.:D They may also ask if your skin was wet, or moist.. Bottom line is, if it is normal, you should not be getting perceptible current through your body each time you touch it. The only "normal" shock you might get is from static electricity that should be just momentary, not in successions so what you are getting is not from static as we agreed long time ago.



Agreed, but you already know your device is giving you that "shock" so why risk yourself? You should stop using the unit until it gets resolved, safety first! I mentioned those things only as safety precautions for taking measurements as you indicated you have done already since your first post. So again, those are just safety measures for during troubleshooting if and when someone already know that is something not normal but want to take some electrical measurements. If you are not a qualified electrician or technician it is best left it to the service shop as you have now.



I would say, stop using the unit, unplug it, pack it and set it back to the seller or the repair shop depending on what you can get Yamaha agree to do.



No one is arguing, except apparently Yamaha, may be, if I understood correctly..:D



In the US and Canada, people seem to be getting good service from Yamaha, is there anyway you can elevate your complaint by requesting to talk to someone in higher positions?



So that branch head guy is going to get back to you then?
Assuming he did everything right (I am not there so I can only assume), then you should return the unit for an exchange or refund. If not, insist that they them fix it for you.

Only becuase i just want a replacement and if not a refund is why Yamaha is continuosly dragging its feet.Am not fine with opening up and repairing a brand new item and considering yesterday i had to guide the guys at the service centre regarding how to check the leakage voltage my resolve has grown stronger now.I dont even want to go into that story.

I would say, stop using the unit, unplug it, pack it and set it back to the seller or the repair shop depending on what you can get Yamaha agree to do.
well thats what i initially asked Amazon and the sller.I even offered them to give back for free if that would make them take it.No one would and thats when i had to start legal proceedings and send them a legal notice.

No one is arguing, except apparently Yamaha, may be, if I understood correctly..
Yup and thats what irks me and reading their response mail it also spooked quite a lot of other indian yamaha users.I can assure you no brand has till date behaved this way and that too the company management.

In the US and Canada, people seem to be getting good service from Yamaha,
Could be but i also have heard from yamaha US users of similar issue on their yamaha avr/amplifiers albeit diff model.This isnt even region specific.Yamaha has got some problem on their end they are not ready to accept yet and thats what is bad.If only they accept,only then can they take corrective actions.Partly the reason i plan to take this legal knowing full well that this is only going to add hugey to my costs of owning this shi**y defective piece.

is there anyway you can elevate your complaint by requesting to talk to someone in higher positions?
Ha ha.Arent you surprised that these are guys at higher levels of yamaha(the main indiam corporate or head office) who are now sending the mail i had posted here probably on friday often with self contradictory messages and on phone with me speaking pure bull.

So that branch head guy is going to get back to you then?
They are just trying to delay this and are trying to bring me around to agree to repair it.If you had read the mail u would understand that first they blame my unit,then my local distribution and lastly agreed only to repair.The hell in my first call and mail i had very specifically stated that the reason for the notice was i dont want repair and want this piece replaced with a new unit or refunded and if they are so financially hamstrung then to take it back for free (of course they have to pay the shipping costs).And still this guy wastes my time over the phone and mail and after 3-4 days comes back with the repair response and also on the sly trying to repair it on the pretext of submitting the device for analysis.
Also as i said i am also highlighting this to put forward a simple fact across to existing and upcoming yamaha users(simply because the build was the strongest factor that tilted me towards yamaha over denon).Yamaha devices and i dont know why their AVRs have this different behaviour across models and even across same models and the company till date having no clue and not even ready to accept even now.What makes me angry is that still when i am ready to provide them with data of this they are trying to stonewall me even while the evidence stares at their face.A genuine honest person would atleast agree to look into it rather than saying point blank that no devices of ours yet have this issue over the years save yours(read the first response of the attached mail).
Thats not confidence...thats sheer arrogance.

I will keep everyone updated here of how this goes but however it does this has seriously shaken my confidence in Brand Yamaha.If only Denon had been a bit more musical and had a robust build my next purchase would surely have been them.But again they also get serviced at the same Service centre that repairs Yamaha and trust me its a bloody mess.

If the court finally tells me that repair is the way ahead then i will surely repair it and then off it goes for sale for whatever amount.Then sadly i have to again pour money into buying a new one but i am still torn between yamaha and Denon and dont know if i can trust Denon knowing the following:-
1.Not as suited for music as yamaha
2.Runs too warm or hot
3.Has comparitively more build issues than yamaha...cant confirm this.Only based on what some service technicians told me
4.Same service centre that repairs Yamaha receivers in my city.
 

Attachments

S

sand87

Audioholic
OK, so you felt the tingle when you touched the receiver alone and not at the same time as another piece of equipment with bare feet or socks/ no shoes, touching nothing else- am I correct?

If this is the only piece of equipment with this problem, it's not your electrical service.
OK, so you felt the tingle when you touched the receiver alone and not at the same time as another piece of equipment with bare feet or socks/ no shoes, touching nothing else- am I correct?

Yes only the AVR.Not connected to any other device.

I was also only touching the AVR and not any other device.
yes i was on bare feet on a tiled floor.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Assuming he did everything right (I am not there so I can only assume), then you should return the unit for an exchange or refund. If not, insist that they them fix it for you.

Only becuase i just want a replacement and if not a refund is why Yamaha is continuosly dragging its feet.Am not fine with opening up and repairing a brand new item and considering yesterday i had to guide the guys at the service centre regarding how to check the leakage voltage my resolve has grown stronger now.I dont even want to go into that story.

I would say, stop using the unit, unplug it, pack it and set it back to the seller or the repair shop depending on what you can get Yamaha agree to do.
well thats what i initially asked Amazon and the sller.I even offered them to give back for free if that would make them take it.No one would and thats when i had to start legal proceedings and send them a legal notice.

No one is arguing, except apparently Yamaha, may be, if I understood correctly..
Yup and thats what irks me and reading their response mail it also spooked quite a lot of other indian yamaha users.I can assure you no brand has till date behaved this way and that too the company management.

In the US and Canada, people seem to be getting good service from Yamaha,
Could be but i also have heard from yamaha US users of similar issue on their yamaha avr/amplifiers albeit diff model.This isnt even region specific.Yamaha has got some problem on their end they are not ready to accept yet and thats what is bad.If only they accept,only then can they take corrective actions.Partly the reason i plan to take this legal knowing full well that this is only going to add hugey to my costs of owning this shi**y defective piece.

is there anyway you can elevate your complaint by requesting to talk to someone in higher positions?
Ha ha.Arent you surprised that these are guys at higher levels of yamaha(the main indiam corporate or head office) who are now sending the mail i had posted here probably on friday often with self contradictory messages and on phone with me speaking pure bull.

So that branch head guy is going to get back to you then?
They are just trying to delay this and are trying to bring me around to agree to repair it.If you had read the mail u would understand that first they blame my unit,then my local distribution and lastly agreed only to repair.The hell in my first call and mail i had very specifically stated that the reason for the notice was i dont want repair and want this piece replaced with a new unit or refunded and if they are so financially hamstrung then to take it back for free (of course they have to pay the shipping costs).And still this guy wastes my time over the phone and mail and after 3-4 days comes back with the repair response and also on the sly trying to repair it on the pretext of submitting the device for analysis.
Also as i said i am also highlighting this to put forward a simple fact across to existing and upcoming yamaha users(simply because the build was the strongest factor that tilted me towards yamaha over denon).Yamaha devices and i dont know why their AVRs have this different behaviour across models and even across same models and the company till date having no clue and not even ready to accept even now.What makes me angry is that still when i am ready to provide them with data of this they are trying to stonewall me even while the evidence stares at their face.A genuine honest person would atleast agree to look into it rather than saying point blank that no devices of ours yet have this issue over the years save yours(read the first response of the attached mail).
Thats not confidence...thats sheer arrogance.

I will keep everyone updated here of how this goes but however it does this has seriously shaken my confidence in Brand Yamaha.If only Denon had been a bit more musical and had a robust build my next purchase would surely have been them.But again they also get serviced at the same Service centre that repairs Yamaha and trust me its a bloody mess.

If the court finally tells me that repair is the way ahead then i will surely repair it and then off it goes for sale for whatever amount.Then sadly i have to again pour money into buying a new one but i am still torn between yamaha and Denon and dont know if i can trust Denon knowing the following:-
1.Not as suited for music as yamaha
2.Runs too warm or hot
3.Has comparitively more build issues than yamaha...cant confirm this.Only based on what some service technicians told me
4.Same service centre that repairs Yamaha receivers in my city.
I just read your last two posts (after reading the first post some days ago and being curious what the final resolution was). Sorry to hear the problem is not yet resolved!
Per Items #1 & #2 in your attachment, it seems that Yamaha wants the local service agency to be their "eyes and ears" and inspect the unit to verify/determine the source of the problem (and, presumably, establish if it is a viable manufacturing defect).
That seems reasonable to me.
What is your concern on this count?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If the court finally tells me that repair is the way ahead then i will surely repair it and then off it goes for sale for whatever amount.Then sadly i have to again pour money into buying a new one but i am still torn between yamaha and Denon and dont know if i can trust Denon knowing the following:-
1.Not as suited for music as yamaha
2.Runs too warm or hot
3.Has comparitively more build issues than yamaha...cant confirm this.Only based on what some service technicians told me
4.Same service centre that repairs Yamaha receivers in my city.
1. That's new to me, I guess just another internet hearsay, baseless claims by some forum members and/or reviewers. To me, that kind of subjective views means little, if anything.

2. I read a lot about that too including from ASR's reviewer who doesn't seem to be the subjective type so I am going to assume it is probably generally true, at least relative to Yamaha's. Also, I can see from service manuals of several models, that the difference in how warm or not could be explained by a) factually speaking, comparable Yamaha models have larger enclosures, so better natural vent, and b) Denon and Marantz models may have higher bias, to minimize crossover distortions and they do appear to show lower distortions at below one watt, based on available bench test results on the internet. Note: this is not a fact, but just my own educated guess.

RX-A2080 .................................................... 17-1/8” x 7-1/2” x 18-5/8”
AVR-X4500H................................................ 17.1” x 6.6” x 15.3” in

3. I don't know if M Code has the latest data to support that this remain the case for the newer models, say from 2017. (based on the past 2-3 years).

4. At least it is located in your city so I guess that's neither a plus or minus, compared to Yamaha's.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Here is an interesting read from a credible site on the effects of voltage and current on human bodies:

For the OP, I would recommend he reads the entire article in order to be better equipped in his effort to engage Yamaha until he gets a replacement, or at least get it repaired and shipped both ways for free.

1597592263515.png
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
I just read your last two posts (after reading the first post some days ago and being curious what the final resolution was). Sorry to hear the problem is not yet resolved!
Per Items #1 & #2 in your attachment, it seems that Yamaha wants the local service agency to be their "eyes and ears" and inspect the unit to verify/determine the source of the problem (and, presumably, establish if it is a viable manufacturing defect).
That seems reasonable to me.
What is your concern on this count?
will try to explain.
ok so i had intimated Yamaha that i am not ready for a repair but a refund/replacement.That was quite clear in the very first mail that i sent post discussion with their higher management which only came into picture post getting a legal notice.

To that mail Yamaha insisted i take it to their service centre which i was willing to for verification but they wanted it submitted for 2-3 days.I guess you didnt read my mail totally so i wud explain.I asked them why because the SC had already called me prior to this companys call stating to bring the device in so that they can solder a 3rd lead and make it a 3 pin to solve this problem.When i prodded yamaha they didnt say they are going to repair but went around in circles saying they could also consider refund/replacement and thats why i had to send that mail to which their reply is attached here.
As also seconded by my lawyer what yamaha was clearly not telling me that day was they wanted to get it submitted and repair it thereby forfeiting my claim for replacement even after insisting and escalating for a replacement/refund.
This as you can see is pretty clear in the attached reply to my query post that call where they never spoke about repair.

To your question yes i did take it yesterday and the guys at the service centre verified that the voltage is infact there as well as the 5V AC.They have taken the photo and video and sent it.The irony is that i had to tell them how to test it.:)
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Here is an interesting read from a credible site on the effects of voltage and current on human bodies:

For the OP, I would recommend he reads the entire article in order to be better equipped in his effort to engage Yamaha until he gets a replacement, or at least get it repaired and shipped both ways for free.

View attachment 38891
thanks a lot
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
will try to explain.
ok so i had intimated Yamaha that i am not ready for a repair but a refund/replacement.That was quite clear in the very first mail that i sent post discussion with their higher management which only came into picture post getting a legal notice.

To that mail Yamaha insisted i take it to their service centre which i was willing to for verification but they wanted it submitted for 2-3 days.I guess you didnt read my mail totally so i wud explain.I asked them why because the SC had already called me prior to this companys call stating to bring the device in so that they can solder a 3rd lead and make it a 3 pin to solve this problem.When i prodded yamaha they didnt say they are going to repair but went around in circles saying they could also consider refund/replacement and thats why i had to send that mail to which their reply is attached here.
As also seconded by my lawyer what yamaha was clearly not telling me that day was they wanted to get it submitted and repair it thereby forfeiting my claim for replacement even after insisting and escalating for a replacement/refund.
This as you can see is pretty clear in the attached reply to my query post that call where they never spoke about repair.

To your question yes i did take it yesterday and the guys at the service centre verified that the voltage is infact there as well as the 5V AC.They have taken the photo and video and sent it.The irony is that i had to tell them how to test it.:)
Ahhh, I see where you are coming from. Thanks for taking the time and good luck on reaching a satisfactory conclusion!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
OK, so you felt the tingle when you touched the receiver alone and not at the same time as another piece of equipment with bare feet or socks/ no shoes, touching nothing else- am I correct?

Yes only the AVR.Not connected to any other device.

I was also only touching the AVR and not any other device.
yes i was on bare feet on a tiled floor.
Have you plugged it into a different outlet? I don't remember seeing that.

If you have done that, you have made sure the electric service has no issues and it still shocked you, this AVR has a short- you should unplug it and return it
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Have you plugged it into a different outlet? I don't remember seeing that.

If you have done that, you have made sure the electric service has no issues and it still shocked you, this AVR has a short- you should unplug it and return it
yamaha is behaving worse than a chinese knock off maker.they today replied three lines as a mail after the service centre checked /verified the issue.
1.this is due to floating ground
2.the tester lights up due to floating ground
3.fix ur home grounding or ground the avr.

remember in all the previous mails i had suggested that at 3 diff homes this same issue occured and to verify that they had asked me to bring it to service centre and there too they recorded this leakage voltage.still they sent the above 3 points as the report to my complaint.i have yet to see as fucked up a company as yamaha music india.a bunch of either morons or idiots are running it in india
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
Have you plugged it into a different outlet? I don't remember seeing that.

If you have done that, you have made sure the electric service has no issues and it still shocked you, this AVR has a short- you should unplug it and return it
yes i did check.no changes

yamaha is behaving like a conman here.they wont refund or replace and is playing diff tricks everyday.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
yamaha is behaving worse than a chinese knock off maker.they today replied three lines as a mail after the service centre checked /verified the issue.
1.this is due to floating ground
2.the tester lights up due to floating ground
3.fix ur home grounding or ground the avr.

remember in all the previous mails i had suggested that at 3 diff homes this same issue occured and to verify that they had asked me to bring it to service centre and there too they recorded this leakage voltage.still they sent the above 3 points as the report to my complaint.i have yet to see as fucked up a company as yamaha music india.a bunch of either morons or idiots are running it in india
So how is your ground in your home, what are the details?
 
S

sand87

Audioholic
So how is your ground in your home, what are the details?
its totally fine.i checked using multimeter too.i think u may have missed out on the earlier part of the conversation or u may havent got the context.i am getting the same voltage over the receiver at
1.my home
2.cousins home 3kms away
3.friends home 8kms away
4.yamaha authorized service centre

i had already given these guys the details and had told them that its not any problem with local distribution.thats wen they told me lets check at our authorized service centre to confirm.thats why i took it there and there too the same issue repeated.so now u understand how dishonest these guys must be to again suggest this.
for measurements
neutral phase= 230v
phase ground=230v
neutral ground=0v

thats the reading at 2 homes that i tried.the guys at yamaha management in india are just bluffing and trying to wash their hands off this which nobody seems to understand.the yamaha management says 2 things:-

1.our devices dont have any leakage voltage ever on it.ask them why other similar or diff models have this leakage voltage..and thats when they say

2. on all our models a small voltage is there.ask them why then similar or other models at least across india dont have them and then they will start speaking bullshit

reason nobody however smart they may be cant logically ever explain such a huge variation across models and across same models.
we can go round and round trying to blame local voltages etc etc but the fact is yamaha either knows that theres sm sort of design flaw that has been causing this or better their QA simply sucks.
Since they cant and wont and even those who have it dont ever report or hold them accountable this thing keeps repeating.
only drilling a service centre branch head made him finally accept that this is an issue and that they will definitly escalate it.now will they or not is smthng i cant possibly confirm seeing how these morons behave.
 

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