X3600/3CH or X3700/9Ch or XMC-2/9CH?

T

tparm

Audioholic
Here I plan to consolidate my thoughts and shotgun-posting on multiple threads.

I recently sold some gear and am in the market for new electrics.

Three rigs;
AVR-X3600 (which I just bought) w/ Monolith 3X (11CH mode) = money left over.
AVR-X3700 w/ Monolith 5X & 2 Emotiva BasX A-150s (I already own one)(full pre-amp mode) = break even
Emotiva XMC-2 w/ XPA 5 & 2 BasX A-150s (I already own one) = +$1,500.

AVR-X3600 is a tested known entity and I can return within the next month.
AVR-X3700 has two Audyssey profile slots, discrete sub outs and full pre-amp mode.
Emotiva has balanced inputs for my Audiolab 6000N (nerdy cool), balanced outputs for subs as I will have long runs, and eventually (hopefully) Dirac.

This is for a new home being built. I own a Umik-1/REW and will treat the room accordingly so I don't need additional funds for other purchases (until I move and buy subs and a new TV - that's about 10 months away).

65/35% music to movies/TV, room on a slab and sealed to rest of house, 31x15.5x9 with an L-shaped bar in the back, Polk Audio LSiM707/706C/703 combo with 4 700-LS ceiling speakers. I listen to both 2CH and upmixed music, mostly vocal & acoustic but occasionally get the need for some Tool (loud). I don't listen at reference levels, for movies or music, but I do play it loud and get carried away when demo'ing the system for friends. MLP is 14' from front wall and roughly 11'6" from the three front channels.

I hope we see the X3700 test results soon, but what do you Audioholics think?
 
M

Movie2099

Full Audioholic
Here I plan to consolidate my thoughts and shotgun-posting on multiple threads.

I recently sold some gear and am in the market for new electrics.

Three rigs;
AVR-X3600 (which I just bought) w/ Monolith 3X (11CH mode) = money left over.
AVR-X3700 w/ Monolith 5X & 2 Emotiva BasX A-150s (I already own one)(full pre-amp mode) = break even
Emotiva XMC-2 w/ XPA 5 & 2 BasX A-150s (I already own one) = +$1,500.

AVR-X3600 is a tested known entity and I can return within the next month.
AVR-X3700 has two Audyssey profile slots, discrete sub outs and full pre-amp mode.
Emotiva has balanced inputs for my Audiolab 6000N (nerdy cool), balanced outputs for subs as I will have long runs, and eventually (hopefully) Dirac.

This is for a new home being built. I own a Umik-1/REW and will treat the room accordingly so I don't need additional funds for other purchases (until I move and buy subs and a new TV - that's about 10 months away).

65/35% music to movies/TV, room on a slab and sealed to rest of house, 31x15.5x9 with an L-shaped bar in the back, Polk Audio LSiM707/706C/703 combo with 4 700-LS ceiling speakers. I listen to both 2CH and upmixed music, mostly vocal & acoustic but occasionally get the need for some Tool (loud). I don't listen at reference levels, for movies or music, but I do play it loud and get carried away when demo'ing the system for friends. MLP is 14' from front wall and roughly 11'6" from the three front channels.

I hope we see the X3700 test results soon, but what do you Audioholics think?
I think the first option with the money leftover is perfect for your situation.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Here I plan to consolidate my thoughts and shotgun-posting on multiple threads.

I recently sold some gear and am in the market for new electrics.

Three rigs;
AVR-X3600 (which I just bought) w/ Monolith 3X (11CH mode) = money left over.
AVR-X3700 w/ Monolith 5X & 2 Emotiva BasX A-150s (I already own one)(full pre-amp mode) = break even
Emotiva XMC-2 w/ XPA 5 & 2 BasX A-150s (I already own one) = +$1,500.

AVR-X3600 is a tested known entity and I can return within the next month.
AVR-X3700 has two Audyssey profile slots, discrete sub outs and full pre-amp mode.
Emotiva has balanced inputs for my Audiolab 6000N (nerdy cool), balanced outputs for subs as I will have long runs, and eventually (hopefully) Dirac.

This is for a new home being built. I own a Umik-1/REW and will treat the room accordingly so I don't need additional funds for other purchases (until I move and buy subs and a new TV - that's about 10 months away).

65/35% music to movies/TV, room on a slab and sealed to rest of house, 31x15.5x9 with an L-shaped bar in the back, Polk Audio LSiM707/706C/703 combo with 4 700-LS ceiling speakers. I listen to both 2CH and upmixed music, mostly vocal & acoustic but occasionally get the need for some Tool (loud). I don't listen at reference levels, for movies or music, but I do play it loud and get carried away when demo'ing the system for friends. MLP is 14' from front wall and roughly 11'6" from the three front channels.

I hope we see the X3700 test results soon, but what do you Audioholics think?
The 3700 is tempting but you really should wait until we have the results of the "discussion" between Denon and ASR on the 32 tones test results. It seems that they have agreed on the optical input SINAD, HDMI input SINAD isn't bad even if ASR's prevails anyway. So the main thorns are the 32 tones and to a smaller extent the linearity.

If you can accept that the measured differences (except the 32 tones one that ought to be audible, if ASR's measurements prevail and reflect real world use) are not audible then its a moot point, i.e. the 3700 is a better choice but at the moment there are just too many "ifs".
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
The 3700 is tempting but you really should wait until we have the results of the "discussion" between Denon and ASR on the 32 tones test results. It seems that they have agreed on the optical input SINAD, HDMI input SINAD isn't bad even if ASR's prevails anyway. So the main thorns are the 32 tones and to a smaller extent the linearity.

If you can accept that the measured differences (except the 32 tones one that ought to be audible, if ASR's measurements prevail and reflect real world use) are not audible then its a moot point, i.e. the 3700 is a better choice but at the moment there are just too many "ifs".
Wonder if the X3700 arrived at ASR today?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Wonder if the X3700 arrived at ASR today?
I think it should have. He is probably curious enough to let it jump the queue, so I wouldn't be surprise to see it measured really soon. Or he may want to wait until he hears back from Denon on the explanations of the poor 32 tones test results. Really, whatever applies to the X4700H has to apply to the X3700H. The talks about Auro 3D being a reason makes no sense to me at all as that's just the DSP stuff. We shouldn't have to worry about performance hit every time they came up with something new codecs/formats etc. The AV8805 has Auro 3 D too, it didn't measure better than the 3600H but not worse either.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
I think it should have. He is probably curious enough to let it jump the queue, so I wouldn't be surprise to see it measured really soon. Or he may want to wait until he hears back from Denon on the explanations of the poor 32 tones test results. Really, whatever applies to the X4700H has to apply to the X3700H. The talks about Auro 3D being a reason makes no sense to me at all as that's just the DSP stuff. We shouldn't have to worry about performance hit every time they came up with something new codecs/formats etc. The AV8805 has Auro 3 D too, it didn't measure better than the 3600H but not worse either.
Agree! You and bigguyca left me in the dust with all the volume op buffer what RCA out talk! I need brief explanations and pictures. :p
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
You list the 3700 as having discrete sub pre-outs as if the 3600 doesn't also....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Agree! You and bigguyca left me in the dust with all the volume op buffer what RCA out talk! I need brief explanations and pictures. :p
I can try to do that in the next few days.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
You list the 3700 as having discrete sub pre-outs as if the 3600 doesn't also....
From what I read on Denon website the 3600 calibrates individually but outputs aren’t mentioned as discrete but they do mention it for the 3700/4700/6700s. Now, I’m not sure it’s a change and I’m less sure that it matters......
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
From what I read on Denon website the 3600 calibrates individually but outputs aren’t mentioned as discrete but they do mention it for the 3700/4700/6700s. Now, I’m not sure it’s a change and I’m less sure that it matters......
Change in wording perhaps, all the Denons with Audyssey XT32 have this feature (so all 3xxx models and up in current nomenclature). Just provides separate adjustment of delay and level for two subs.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Agree! You and bigguyca left me in the dust with all the volume op buffer what RCA out talk! I need brief explanations and pictures. :p
Basically my discussion with bigguyca has been about the reasons for the increased distortions at higher preamp output voltages, in addition to the one we already know, that is, the effects of the power amp clipping.

To me I can think of two main reasons as follow:

1) The volume control IC in the D+M AVRs has a wide spread in its tolerance for THD+N so logically speaking, it is possible that you can measure two identical model units and one would have lower THD+N lower than the other.

2) The volume control IC is rated for about 4.3 V, but the datasheet does not include the graph of THD vs Output voltage for various load impedance, except it specified the test load is 47 kOhms.

If you read all the posts, you would know that I openly asked for comments on 1) above, and have absolutely no response from bigguyca or Amir. So I have to assume neither one has the answer that they feel comfortable with.

Regarding 2), bigguyca is of the opinion that because the test load used for the specs of the IC D+M used was 47 kOhm, the distortions would/or could, be higher if they had used with an external power amp that could have impedance of 10 kOhm or even lower, especially if the internal power amp is not disconnected. He cited the IC used in Yamaha's are more robust because the test load used was 10 kOhm. I don't know if we can just based on the test load value to determine which IC is more "robust", but we do know what Gene has said about the pre out performance of Denon, Marantz vs Yamaha's in the past. All I can say is that bigguyca and I are both guessing, because there are not enough details in the available/downloadable datasheets for either ICs. The fact is, Yamaha's Rohm chip is an 80 pin LSI chip with much more parts jammed into 1 and Denon's NJU chip is a MSI chip for volume control only with much fewer parts in it, so logically speaking, I would think it should be at least equally if not more "robust". Again, we don't know so ignore what we said (me anyway) on this.. Based on available block diagrams in some service manuals, it does seem that Denon's have no buffer amps outside of the volume control IC, while Yamaha appears to have. But we don't know for sure if Denon's service manuals show every details either.

Now, about your question on buffer amps, basically a buffer amp is one that offers very high input impedance and low output impedance and and often have gain = 1 so in that case it could be the final stage of a preamp, to make sure it can be paired with a power amp that may have relatively low input impedance.

It is easier for me to provide links as follow.

First, wiki's definition, that sounds good to me:

.

"A voltage buffer amplifier is used to transfer a voltage from a first circuit, having a high output impedance level, to a second circuit with a low input impedance level. The interposed buffer amplifier prevents the second circuit from loading the first circuit unacceptably and interfering with its desired operation. In the ideal voltage buffer in the diagram, the input resistance is infinite and the output resistance zero (output impedance of an ideal voltage source is zero). Other properties of the ideal buffer are: perfect linearity, regardless of signal amplitudes; and instant output response, regardless of the speed of the input signal.

If the voltage is transferred unchanged (the voltage gain Av is 1), the amplifier is a unity gain buffer; also known as a voltage follower because the output voltage follows or tracks the input voltage. Although the voltage gain of a voltage buffer amplifier may be (approximately) unity, it usually provides considerable current gain and thus power gain. However, it is commonplace to say that it has a gain of 1 (or the equivalent 0 dB), referring to the voltage gain."


And if you don't mind reading more:

The first one below explains more about what a buffer amp is and the second one explains in more detailed and simpler terms when/why you need it. One of them should give you a good enough understanding but it does not hurt to read both if you have time. Feel free to ask questions after, I am sure someone will answer.

 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
The 3700 is tempting but you really should wait until we have the results of the "discussion" between Denon and ASR on the 32 tones test results. It seems that they have agreed on the optical input SINAD, HDMI input SINAD isn't bad even if ASR's prevails anyway. So the main thorns are the 32 tones and to a smaller extent the linearity.

If you can accept that the measured differences (except the 32 tones one that ought to be audible, if ASR's measurements prevail and reflect real world use) are not audible then its a moot point, i.e. the 3700 is a better choice but at the moment there are just too many "ifs".
What is tempting about the 3700 compared to the 3600? For the difference in price and the great measured specs in preamp mode I'd actually prefer the 3600.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
What is tempting about the 3700 compared to the 3600? For the difference in price and the great measured specs in preamp mode I'd actually prefer the 3600.
Ability to run in full pre-amp mode and use all external amplification. Still irritated the center channel of the 3600 doesn't disconnect the amp like LR channels do. Perhaps I am putting too much stock in that. Also, two Audyssey profiles versus one. I'll wait and see how the 3700 measures.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
Basically my discussion with bigguyca has been about the reasons for the increased distortions at higher preamp output voltages, in addition to the one we already know, that is, the effects of the power amp clipping.

To me I can think of two main reasons as follow:

1) The volume control IC in the D+M AVRs has a wide spread in its tolerance for THD+N so logically speaking, it is possible that you can measure two identical model units and one would have lower THD+N lower than the other.

2) The volume control IC is rated for about 4.3 V, but the datasheet does not include the graph of THD vs Output voltage for various load impedance, except it specified the test load is 47 kOhms.

If you read all the posts, you would know that I openly asked for comments on 1) above, and have absolutely no response from bigguyca or Amir. So I have to assume neither one has the answer that they feel comfortable with.

Regarding 2), bigguyca is of the opinion that because the test load used for the specs of the IC D+M used was 47 kOhm, the distortions would/or could, be higher if they had used with an external power amp that could have impedance of 10 kOhm or even lower, especially if the internal power amp is not disconnected. He cited the IC used in Yamaha's are more robust because the test load used was 10 kOhm. I don't know if we can just based on the test load value to determine which IC is more "robust", but we do know what Gene has said about the pre out performance of Denon, Marantz vs Yamaha's in the past. All I can say is that bigguyca and I are both guessing, because there are not enough details in the available/downloadable datasheets for either ICs. The fact is, Yamaha's Rohm chip is an 80 pin LSI chip with much more parts jammed into 1 and Denon's NJU chip is a MSI chip for volume control only with much fewer parts in it, so logically speaking, I would think it should be at least equally if not more "robust". Again, we don't know so ignore what we said (me anyway) on this.. Based on available block diagrams in some service manuals, it does seem that Denon's have no buffer amps outside of the volume control IC, while Yamaha appears to have. But we don't know for sure if Denon's service manuals show every details either.

Now, about your question on buffer amps, basically a buffer amp is one that offers very high input impedance and low output impedance and and often have gain = 1 so in that case it could be the final stage of a preamp, to make sure it can be paired with a power amp that may have relatively low input impedance.

It is easier for me to provide links as follow.

First, wiki's definition, that sounds good to me:

.

"A voltage buffer amplifier is used to transfer a voltage from a first circuit, having a high output impedance level, to a second circuit with a low input impedance level. The interposed buffer amplifier prevents the second circuit from loading the first circuit unacceptably and interfering with its desired operation. In the ideal voltage buffer in the diagram, the input resistance is infinite and the output resistance zero (output impedance of an ideal voltage source is zero). Other properties of the ideal buffer are: perfect linearity, regardless of signal amplitudes; and instant output response, regardless of the speed of the input signal.

If the voltage is transferred unchanged (the voltage gain Av is 1), the amplifier is a unity gain buffer; also known as a voltage follower because the output voltage follows or tracks the input voltage. Although the voltage gain of a voltage buffer amplifier may be (approximately) unity, it usually provides considerable current gain and thus power gain. However, it is commonplace to say that it has a gain of 1 (or the equivalent 0 dB), referring to the voltage gain."


And if you don't mind reading more:

The first one below explains more about what a buffer amp is and the second one explains in more detailed and simpler terms when/why you need it. One of them should give you a good enough understanding but it does not hurt to read both if you have time. Feel free to ask questions after, I am sure someone will answer.

Thanks @PENG So my plan to use a Monolith 3X with the X3600 would be a good marriage? Even if the center channel pre-out doesn't disconnect according to the test it still provides a clean signal to almost 2V right? I may say screw it and keep the current set up. I know enough that the rears and Atmos channels don't need more than the onboard amps can provide (hence 3CH vs 5CH Monolith) and that at my listening levels I'll get good clean sound from my front three for movies and LR for music in 11Ch mode.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks @PENG So my plan to use a Monolith 3X with the X3600 would be a good marriage? Even if the center channel pre-out doesn't disconnect according to the test it still provides a clean signal to almost 2V right? I may say screw it and keep the current set up. I know enough that the rears and Atmos channels don't need more than the onboard amps can provide (hence 3CH vs 5CH Monolith) and that at my listening levels I'll get good clean sound from my front three for movies and LR for music in 11Ch mode.
I would say you are all good to go, but I am sure before your return window expires you will have seen the measurements of the 3700 and/or more details from Denon and/or ASR so you will still have options anyway.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
While I can save several Audyssey runs/profiles on my pc for my Denon 4520, anyone know on the new ones with two profiles as to how fast they can load/switch? It's a several minute long process loading a saved profile from my pc....
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
While I can save several Audyssey runs/profiles on my pc for my Denon 4520, anyone know on the new ones with two profiles as to how fast they can load/switch? It's a several minute long process loading a saved profile from my pc....
There is post somewhere on AVS that states it's "instant." There is a new button on the remote that allows you to select the profile.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Big surprise he was doing something goofy in testing the first time around.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I have about a dozen profiles saved for my SR6011 by now.
 

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