X3600/3CH or X3700/9Ch or XMC-2/9CH?

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, I'm voting for the "Save Money" option. :D

X3600 (on sale?) + 11Ch amp.

Or just X3600 by itself if you don't actually use 11 speakers.

How big is your room?
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
Yeah, I'm voting for the "Save Money" option. :D

X3600 (on sale?) + 11Ch amp.

Or just X3600 by itself if you don't actually use 11 speakers.

How big is your room?
X3600 returned. X4700 ordered, have two Emotiva BasX A-150s and will order a Monolith 5X in July 10 when they are back in stock. Decision made. I think all the details of my gear and equipment are in the original post. Although it may have been somewhere else.

Polk LSiM 707/706/703 & 4 700-LS ceiling speakers. Building a house as we speak and room is on a slab, sealed to rest of house, 31x15x9 with a bar in the back. Will treat per REW findings and use two 15” subs, probably Monoliths but maybe Rythmik FV15HPs. 65% music, not to reference levels but loud.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, I'm voting for the "Save Money" option. :D

X3600 (on sale?) + 11Ch amp.

Or just X3600 by itself if you don't actually use 11 speakers.

How big is your room?
Don't forget he has those big Polks, so don't stop him getting the Monoliths as he may need it if he gets close enough to ref level.:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Don't forget he has those big Polks, so don't stop him getting the Monoliths as he may need it if he gets close enough to ref level.:D
He's buying amps anyway. No stopping that train. :D

Can't blame him since most of us bought plenty of amps. :D

But I'm still saying that I would just get a flagship AVR and be done with it. Of course, I'm NOT blowing my ear drums either. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
He's buying amps anyway. No stopping that train. :D

Can't blame him since most of us bought plenty of amps. :D

But I'm still saying that I would just get a flagship AVR and be done with it. Of course, I'm NOT blowing my ear drums either. :D
You, multiple amp owner, have no such right saying such things..:p
 
R

RickyT

Audioholic Intern
Basically my discussion with bigguyca has been about the reasons for the increased distortions at higher preamp output voltages, in addition to the one we already know, that is, the effects of the power amp clipping.
Can you point me to your discussion with bigguyca? I'd like to read it. Thanks.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Can you point me to your discussion with bigguyca? I'd like to read it. Thanks.
Yeah, its a very long thread but you an start on post#946.

This thread is now locked, because Amir, with Denon's help, found the reason for his inexplicably "poor" measurements using HDMI input.


In the updated review, the measurements are virtually the same as the AVR-X3600H, sort of supporting my arguments that the reasons bigguyca cited, while valid, could not explain the difference in performance of any more than 2-3 dB SINAD difference, now that we know the real reason.
 
R

RickyT

Audioholic Intern
Yeah, its a very long thread but you an start on post#946.

This thread is now locked, because Amir, with Denon's help, found the reason for his inexplicably "poor" measurements using HDMI input.


In the updated review, the measurements are virtually the same as the AVR-X3600H, sort of supporting my arguments that the reasons bigguyca cited, while valid, could not explain the difference in performance of any more than 2-3 dB SINAD difference, now that we know the real reason.
Thanks, I'll check it out.

I'm making some changes to my 5.2.4 atmos setup. I have a Denon 4400H and 3 Revel M106 bookshelfs (with ~ 86db sensitivity) for LCR arriving on Tuesday. The Denon will drive my rear & atmos speakers, and two Citation 7.1 amps (RCA inputs only) will drive the the M106s and two passive subs.

Does the Citation's 1.1V input sensitivity means it will reach full power once 4400H preouts reach 1.1V? Relative to other amp brands, is the Citation better or worse suited for using the RCA preouts from a prepro or receiver?

I can only find the following info below on the old Citation 7.1.

General Description High current, multichannel audio power
amplifier, configurable for four, three or two-channel output. THX Certified.
Power Output 4 x 150 watts @ 8 Ohms, 4 x 240 watts
@ 4 Ohms
2 x 150 watts + 1 x 450 watts @ 8 Ohms
2 x 450 watts @ 8 Ohms bridged
FTC: 20 Hz - 20 kHz, .03% THD, All channels driven.
HCC 130 Amps/channel in dual mono mode
Frequency Response < 3 Hz - 200 kHz ±3 dB at rated output
THD/IMD Less than 0.03% at rated output
Power Bandwidth 5 Hz - 130 kHz
Input Impedance 22k Ohms
Input Sensitivity 1.1 volts for rated output

Dimensions (HxWxD) 7 1/2 x 17 15/16 x 17 1/2"
191 x 456 x 445 mm
Weight 75 lbs / 34 kg
Power Requirements 120/230VAC, 50 - 60 Hz; 2500 watts,
maximum
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Does the Citation's 1.1V input sensitivity means it will reach full power once 4400H preouts reach 1.1V? Relative to other amp brands, is the Citation better or worse suited for using the RCA preouts from a prepro or receiver?
Yes, that's exactly what it means. Incidentally, according to ASR's measurements of the AVR-X4700H, the pre-out at 1.1 V happens to perform the best, with THD+N at -101 dB.

I can only find the following info below on the old Citation 7.1.

General Description High current, multichannel audio power
amplifier, configurable for four, three or two-channel output. THX Certified.
Power Output 4 x 150 watts @ 8 Ohms, 4 x 240 watts
@ 4 Ohms
2 x 150 watts + 1 x 450 watts @ 8 Ohms
2 x 450 watts @ 8 Ohms bridged
FTC: 20 Hz - 20 kHz, .03% THD, All channels driven.
HCC 130 Amps/channel in dual mono mode
Frequency Response < 3 Hz - 200 kHz ±3 dB at rated output
THD/IMD Less than 0.03% at rated output
Power Bandwidth 5 Hz - 130 kHz
Input Impedance 22k Ohms
Input Sensitivity 1.1 volts for rated output

Dimensions (HxWxD) 7 1/2 x 17 15/16 x 17 1/2"
191 x 456 x 445 mm
Weight 75 lbs / 34 kg
Power Requirements 120/230VAC, 50 - 60 Hz; 2500 watts,
maximum
Specs look very good, but the HCC 130 Amps/channel blablabla are just marketing hypes with no practical meaning at all. Pretty sure by "Amps" they meant amperes, 130 amperes/channel? Give me break, they should have specify the time duration and that could be 1 micro second or less lol!!

But jokes aside the specs are good, definitely much better than the Denon's internal amplifiers assuming such 25 years old amplifiers are in top shape.
 
R

RickyT

Audioholic Intern
Yes, that's exactly what it means. Incidentally, according to ASR's measurements of the AVR-X4700H, the pre-out at 1.1 V happens to perform the best, with THD+N at -101 dB.



Specs look very good, but the HCC 130 Amps/channel blablabla are just marketing hypes with no practical meaning at all. Pretty sure by "Amps" they meant amperes, 130 amperes/channel? Give me break, they should have specify the time duration and that could be 1 micro second or less lol!!

But jokes aside the specs are good, definitely much better than the Denon's internal amplifiers assuming such 25 years old amplifiers are in top shape.
Thanks for the 1.1V confirmation! The Citations seem to be in good shape, and now I know I can use them with receivers like the 4400H without worrying about the internal amps clipping/distortion.

Back in the day, I think the peak amps per channel jargon was used by HK Citation/Signature and Parasound amps (which I used to own).

I did find this old post on AVS from Steve Mantz of Zed audio was the one who designed this amp. Here is what he had to say. Mostly engineering talk, the only two things I get are: 1) 2.2K Toroid, and 2) bridge mode in 2 ohms.

Steve Mantz, now with Zed Audio, was instrumental in the Citation 5.1 and 7.1 amp creation:
"We did design and build the Citation 7.1 and the smaller 5.1. We built a lot of these for Harman International. The amplifiers are flat from DC to 270KHz where the response is about 1dB down. Harman wanted this silly specification, why I do not know because we are not bats and cannot hear that high. The original specification was that they wanted the amplifier to go out to 600KHz, but the first prototypes were NOT happy out there and so we 'compromised' at just under 300KHz.
Each channel uses 10 Toshiba 20MHz output devices with a theoretical dissipation of 1,500 watts. The circuitry is fully complementary from input to output and it has some very unique features. Each channel has 6 power supplies which are separate from the other channels. The only common item between channels is the power transformer, which is a 2.2Kw toroid. This 2.2Kw rating is at 25 deg C and it can put out upwards of 3Kw at higher temperatures.
The input complementary differential pairs are driven by temperature compensated constant current sources, which ensure almost zero drift of the DC conditions with each channel. These are also cascode connected for maximum bandwidth. The main gain stage is also cascoded for increased bandwidth and is also Darlington configured for high current gain.
The output stage is a triple Darlington with ultra fast turn off delay. The main power emitter resistors are non inductive types. No coils are used in the speaker circuit and the amplifier is stable into reactive loads with a phase angle of over 45 degrees. It has the usual plethora of protection circuits which by the way are not in the audio path. The amplifier can be turned on with a remote trigger or by the rocker switch on the rear. It can be changed to run from 100v to 240 AC 50/60Hz.
I have the last two production amplifiers at home, one of which I use in my own system for the subs. I run it in bridge mode into a 2 ohm load, and I get out 1Kw per pair of bridged channels. I did modify the protection circuit to allow me to run each channel into 1 ohm!
I have used the amplifier for 8 years now and it has run flawlessly." - Steve Mantz
 
Last edited:
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Since we are discussing specs (specs Sunday anyone?), why did Parasound list sensitivity this way? Drives me nuts. But input sensitivity of only 1V?
FWIW since I couldn't quite make it out in your pic it says:

Input Sensitivity for 28.28 V Output into 8 Ω
Unbalanced: 1 V
Balanced: 1 V per leg
Total Gain: 29 dB

What's wrong with listing it this way? Some amps have sensitivity even below a volt....
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
FWIW since I couldn't quite make it out in your pic it says:

Input Sensitivity for 28.28 V Output into 8 Ω
Unbalanced: 1 V
Balanced: 1 V per leg
Total Gain: 29 dB

What's wrong with listing it this way? Some amps have sensitivity even below a volt....
Nothing wrong with it, matter of fact I was pleased when I read it before ordering. I just haven’t seen it listed for a specific voltage output. This thing should pair to the X4700 well.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
FWIW since I couldn't quite make it out in your pic it says:

Input Sensitivity for 28.28 V Output into 8 Ω
Unbalanced: 1 V
Balanced: 1 V per leg
Total Gain: 29 dB

What's wrong with listing it this way? Some amps have sensitivity even below a volt....
Nothing wrong as such but a little weird and potentially misleading.

A typical spec would just say something like:

Input sensitivity 1 V, and

it would then mean the amplifier needs 1 V input to drive it to its rated output.

The A52+ is rated 180 V, 5 channel driven into 8 ohms, and 225 W, 2 channel driven into 8 ohms.

So you can see why I say it is misleading because in this case, 1 V from the preamp would only drives the A52+ to output 100 W, that is well below its rated output of 180 W 5 channel driven or 225 W 2 channel driven.

For some reasons, Parasound, and Outlaw also, do make some good amplifiers but they don't seem to be able to do as good a job with their specifications. I know because I own products of both and have done extensive research (browsing, reading, emailing them etc.) on them.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
Nothing wrong as such but a little weird and potentially misleading.

A typical spec would just say something like:

Input sensitivity 1 V, and

it would then mean the amplifier needs 1 V input to drive it to its rated output.

The A52+ is rated 180 V, 5 channel driven into 8 ohms, and 225 W, 2 channel driven into 8 ohms.

So you can see why I say it is misleading because in this case, 1 V from the preamp would only drives the A52+ to output 100 W, that is well below its rated output of 180 W 5 channel driven or 225 W 2 channel driven.

For some reasons, Parasound, and Outlaw also, do make some good amplifiers but they don't seem to be able to do as good a job with their specifications. I know because I own products of both and have done extensive research (browsing, reading, emailing them etc.) on them.
So what does the Parasound require to reach maximum output? And how did you determine this, "1 V from the preamp would only drives the A52+ to output 100 W."
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So what does the Parasound require to reach maximum output? And how did you determine this, "1 V from the preamp would only drives the A52+ to output 100 W."
About 1.34 V for 180 V into 8 ohms, and about 1.5 V for 225 W into 8 ohms.

To calculate it, you can find the formula here:


Or I can send you my spreadsheet calculator tomorrow. (TV time now, going to watch Hanna Season 2, so I shut my desktop down already).

I do all my audio calculations with Excel spreadsheets.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Nothing wrong as such but a little weird and potentially misleading.

A typical spec would just say something like:

Input sensitivity 1 V, and

it would then mean the amplifier needs 1 V input to drive it to its rated output.

The A52+ is rated 180 V, 5 channel driven into 8 ohms, and 225 W, 2 channel driven into 8 ohms.

So you can see why I say it is misleading because in this case, 1 V from the preamp would only drives the A52+ to output 100 W, that is well below its rated output of 180 W 5 channel driven or 225 W 2 channel driven.

For some reasons, Parasound, and Outlaw also, do make some good amplifiers but they don't seem to be able to do as good a job with their specifications. I know because I own products of both and have done extensive research (browsing, reading, emailing them etc.) on them.
LOL I thought the spec numbers did seem a bit odd after I posted then I thought well PENG will correct me with the math if so :) which would take me a while to find the right calculator. What does the input level work out to in order to reach the test bench results here? https://www.soundandvision.com/content/parasound-halo-52-amplifier-review-test-bench

....slinking off to sengpiel to see if I can verify :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You are awesome. Enjoy your show!
Show seems okay so far but its Amazon Prime video 4K so the picture is so dark:(unless I made all kind of picture adjustments on the Sony. You wonder why I am so skeptical about this upcoming 8K thing. First, my PS4, Sony X900E, AV8801, Oppo and may be more devices were so called 4K ready but then they changed things a little and now none of the above are really truly, that is, 4K but with caveats of one kind of another..

Now, back to your question
So what does the Parasound require to reach maximum output? And how did you determine this, "1 V from the preamp would only drives the A52+ to output 100 W."
I was thinking attaching my spreadsheet calculator that is of course highly flexible such that depending on which combination of Rated power output, input voltage, output voltage and/or Gain in dB or multiple form you can get the unknown right away, but for occasional calculations you should just pick a formula you need. So I search AH, as I know they have answers to just about everything, sure enough found it quickly as shown below:
And by the way, don't we miss@Steve81 who is such a good writer, wonder if he is still with AH.



Note that AH, like most others, defined input sensitivity in the linked article too:

"Most everyone that has ever purchased an external amplifier is at least familiar with the term voltage gain. Simply, it is the degree to which an amplifier actually amplifies the input from the preamplifier/processor."

"Sounds easy enough, but why does it matter?
Naturally too much or too little of anything can present a problem, and the ideal amount of voltage gain can vary depending on a few factors. Utilizing a receiver with poorly implemented preamplifier outputs for example can be a problem when coupled to a high powered amplifier with relatively low voltage gain and consequently a high input sensitivity, which is the amount of voltage needed from the preamp to drive the amplifier to full unclipped power. Suppose you have a receiver that can deliver 1 volt RMS from its preamplifier outputs before clipping; if you pair this receiver with a high powered amplifier expecting a huge boost in headroom, you might be sorely disappointed if its voltage gain is a below average 27dB."

So again, HD is right, there is nothing wrong with Parasound's specs as such except they have basically given you the "Gain" twice, one in dB form (29 dB) and the other in multiple form (28.28V/1V = 28.28).

To call it input sensitivity, they should have given the input voltage from a pre-amplifier that is required to drive the A52+ to 225 W with two channel driven and that would be about 1.51 V, incidentally, same as the Anthem MCA225.
 
Last edited:
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
LOL I thought the spec numbers did seem a bit odd after I posted then I thought well PENG will correct me with the math if so :) which would take me a while to find the right calculator. What does the input level work out to in order to reach the test bench results here? https://www.soundandvision.com/content/parasound-halo-52-amplifier-review-test-bench

....slinking off to sengpiel to see if I can verify :)
Looking at that review, I just don't quite get it, that so many people seem to think external amps are the panacea for sound quality and "power", yet time and again, measurements show many of them, even this A52+ is mostly a glorified AVR amp on a little bit of steroid. Just can't see how people, as soon as they hooked up such ext amps to their popular and major brand mid range AVRs, they reportedly heard things they never heard before and yes, even at low volume. We all are familiar with such kind of raving user reviews don't we?
 

Latest posts


newsletter
  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top