X3600/3CH or X3700/9Ch or XMC-2/9CH?

[Pogre]

Looking at that review, I just don't quite get it, that so many people seem to think external amps are the panacea for sound quality and "power", yet time and again, measurements show many of them, even this A52+ is mostly a glorified AVR amp on a little bit of steroid. Just can't see how people, as soon as they hooked up such ext amps to their popular and major brand mid range AVRs, they reportedly heard things they never heard before and yes, even at low volume. We all are familiar with such kind of raving user reviews don't we?

Only after 50 hours of break in tho...

 

[Steve81]

And by the way, don't we @Steve81 who is such a good writer, wonder if he is still with AH.

I’m still lurking on the forums, but writing isn’t on the agenda at the moment, not that I have any new and exciting insights to pass on in any event.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...measurements show many of them, even this A52+ is mostly a glorified AVR amp on a little bit of steroid.

Well, that's because the amps inside AVRs are really amps.

That 1% audiophiles who insist that AVR amps are crap can say whatever they want to the other 99% AVR users. But the 99% AVR users will just roll their eyes and say, "R------I-----G-----H------T, whatever makes you sleep better at night" and go on about their business.

 

[PENG]

Well, that's because the amps inside AVRs are really amps.

That 1% audiophiles who insist that AVR amps are crap can say whatever they want to the other 99% AVR users. But the 99% AVR users will just roll their eyes and say, "R------I-----G-----H------T, whatever makes you sleep better at night" and go on about their business.

Seriously, aside from the A52+'s 50 hours break-in requirement @Pogre highlighted, let's stack them up below, using S&V's bench that also use the Audio Precision like Gene and Amir do, and we call all see it for ourselves.

It looks like one has to get to the $6,400 AT6005 to match the likes of the much cheaper RX-A3060 and AVR-3312CI in THD+N, measured with the 1 kHz signal.

I have to wonder if those THD Vs Power output graphs are just waste of time. If not, why are the AVR internal amps that pissed people off so much, just ask TLSGuy for example, yet offer measure better than separate amps? Keep in mind the AVR's THD+N includes the contribution of the preamp's as well.

And before someone say something about the first watt being most critical, it doesn't look like the A52+ did better in the first watt either.

I did not use the AVR-4308CI this time, as that would put even the AT6005 to shame (there must be something wrong with S&V I guess...

I seem to remember ADTG had used his 3311, or 12? with the big 802 D2 for a while and said it was doing the job fine, so may be they are actually that good, not just a pretty face/graph.

One thing we can see though, both separate power amps have a gentle rise in THD pass the clipping point, but they have much bigger power supplies so softer clipping is expected, no surprise there.

Halo A52+

Yamaha RX-A3060

Denon AVR-3312CI

Marantz SR7011

Marantz MM8003

ATI 6005

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Seriously, aside from the A52+'s 50 hours break-in requirement @Pogre highlighted, let's stack them up below, using S&V's bench that also use the Audio Precision like Gene and Amir do, and we call all see it for ourselves.

It looks like one has to get to the $6,400 AT6005 to match the likes of the much cheaper RX-A3060 and AVR-3312CI in THD+N, measured with the 1 kHz signal.

I have to wonder if those THD Vs Power output graphs are just waste of time. If not, why are the AVR internal amps that pissed people off so much, just ask TLSGuy for example, yet offer measure better than separate amps? Keep in mind the AVR's THD+N includes the contribution of the preamp's as well.

And before someone say something about the first watt being most critical, it doesn't look like the A52+ did better in the first watt either.

I did not use the AVR-4308CI this time, as that would put even the AT6005 to shame (there must be something wrong with S&V I guess...

I seem to remember ADTG had used his 3311, or 12? with the big 802 D2 for a while and said it was doing the job fine, so may be they are actually that good, not just a pretty face/graph.

One thing we can see though, both separate power amps have a gentle rise in THD pass the clipping point, but they have much bigger power supplies so softer clipping is expected, no surprise there.

Halo A52+
View attachment 37844

Yamaha RX-A3060

View attachment 37840

Denon AVR-3312CI

View attachment 37841

Marantz SR7011

View attachment 37842

Marantz MM8003

View attachment 37845

ATI 6005

View attachment 37846

I think some people think that the amps inside AVRs aren't really amps and they will fall apart as soon as the speakers dips to 3.9 ohms or below.

You need to show them the Denon 3805 (or something) that can handle 1 ohm load.

But even then, they will argue that the "load in the lab" isn't as difficult as the "load in real life".

Simply put, the 1% audiophile will never listen to the 99% population. Just like the 99% will never listen to the 1%.

 

[tparm]

The point of these replies are to say I am foolish for spending $2,250 on the Parasound and should have just run the Polks off the X4700.... I get it. But I am/was thinking these are not super sensitive speakers in a large space and when pushed to higher volume external amps would provide more stable power. I don't expect better sound quality for 90% of my listening, but better handling of dynamics and cleaner sound once again at high listening levels. Maybe not, but it is petty.

 

[tparm]

All of you guys use external amps or separates, right? @AcuDefTechGuy you've posted pics of your rig! And I know @PENG owns more amps than I have blu ray discs..... Haha.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All of you guys use external amps or separates, right? @AcuDefTechGuy you've posted pics of your rig! And I know @PENG owns more amps than I have blu ray discs..... Haha.

Yeah, I've owned separates for about 30 years - still own separates.

But I've also owned AVRs for about 30 years - and still own AVRs.

Bottom line - amps are amps. Some are made with more steroids, but for the most parts, amps inside AVRs will power most speakers just fine.

Like @PENG mentioned, I've used my Denon AVR-3312 to power B&W 802D2 and Salon2 that many people claim to be "difficult to drive" and must use high-end amps.

I've also used cheap $400 50WPC 5.1 AVR to power tower speakers that dip down below 3 ohms.

In my experience, when AVRs SHUT down, it's most likely due to overheating, not the inability to power speakers. For AVRs that overheat, you must use fans to cool the AVRs. Either that or buy AVRs that don't overheat.

But sure yeah, I still own separates for my main system.

I think if we love Audio-Video and talk about them all the time, then yeah, sure, go for separates.

But for people who just want to watch movies or listen to music and don't necessarily talk about AV like we do, I say just buy a solid AVR and be done.

 

[tparm]

Yeah, I've owned separates for about 30 years now.

I see you're an ATI dealer, I'm thinking if I wanted one you'd sell it to me? Actually I did consider an AT525NC......

You list of speakers is lust-worthy. Always wanted a pair of 805s, can't imagine 802s.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I see you're an ATI dealer, I'm thinking if I wanted one you'd sell it to me? Actually I did consider an AT525NC......

You list of speakers is lust-worthy. Always wanted a pair of 805s, can't imagine 802s.

Sure. Just send me a PM.

I'm actually in the process of getting a home theater setup for a couple of pharmacist friends of mine. For them, I'm just doing AVRs. They probably don't even know anything about amps, much less talk about amps.

 

[Pogre]

The point of these replies are to say I am foolish for spending $2,250 on the Parasound and should have just run the Polks off the X4700.... I get it. But I am/was thinking these are not super sensitive speakers in a large space and when pushed to higher volume external amps would provide more stable power. I don't expect better sound quality for 90% of my listening, but better handling of dynamics and cleaner sound once again at high listening levels. Maybe not, but it is petty.

I don't think anyone is saying you're foolish for buying an amp.

All of you guys use external amps or separates, right? @AcuDefTechGuy you've posted pics of your rig! And I know @PENG owns more amps than I have blu ray discs..... Haha.

Yes, a lot of us do. I shopped best bang for buck when I did tho and didn't expect an ounce better sound quality in even 1% of what I listen to. I've already taken care of sound quality in buying the right speakers. The general practice here is to put all of that focus on the tiny details into the speakers and pick a good amp that has enough power and fits in the budget. The inaudible differences from one amp to another is not worth the time, energy and money to fuss over to me. I spent $1500 on a 7x200wpc amp yes, but I have $5000 in speakers for it to power because that's where it counts.

 

[PENG]

The point of these replies are to say I am foolish for spending $2,250 on the Parasound and should have just run the Polks off the X4700.... I get it.

Yes, but, except you said you had "Polk Audio LSiM707/706C/703 combo". So unless you sit very close to them and you are the type of people who cannot tolerate any more than 70 dB average SPL, you are doing the right thing getting a 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohm real power amplifier. My only subtle message was, just because you have a power amp hooked up, don't expect hearings things you didn't hear before at low to moderate listening level unless you are highly imaginative. That's all, now you are properly prepared, so be ready for a nice surprise.

 

[Pogre]

All of you guys use external amps or separates, right? @AcuDefTechGuy you've posted pics of your rig! And I know @PENG owns more amps than I have blu ray discs..... Haha.

I've seen you here for a while now and ask lots of good questions, participate in other threads and do lots of homework. All on amplification. I've seen you put way, way more effort into amplification specs and barely talk about the actual speakers. How many charts did you view of speaker performance before you bought them? Do you know as much about them as you do your amp?

 

[tparm]

Yes, but, except you said you had "Polk Audio LSiM707/706C/703 combo". So unless you sit very close to them and you are the type of people who cannot tolerate any more than 70 dB average SPL, you are doing the right thing getting a 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohm real power amplifier. My only subtle message was, just because you have a power amp hooked up, don't expect hearings things you didn't hear before at low to moderate listening level unless you are highly imaginative. That's all, now you are properly prepared, so be ready for a nice surprise.

Totally depends if its Scotch or Bourbon that evening, I hear all sorts of things when I listen to female vocals and drink Scotch......

All jokes aside, and first of all, I know the Polks aren't the most audiophile - transparent speaker. I had a little money to spend and wouldn't thought twice about ordering the Monolith 5X had it been in stock. Since it wasn't I started snooping around. I've mentioned this to Peng, this is sort of an emotional system build for me as I am finally at age 48 building the home I've wanted to build for 20 years.

I know I am compromising and over spending on some things (I bought Kimber Kable PBJs for my Audiolab 6000N just because I've always wanted some PBJs (and they aren't that expensive)). So, I've always liked the idea of a Parasound amplifier. And ATI for that matter. I was able to buy a new one from a dealer for $600 more than the Monolith. So, screw it, I bought it.

Like others here I'm sure I go through gear. We will see how the Polks do once I am in my new space. I love Revel speakers (I've listened to Performas, not the Salons) and I owned the previous gen Martin Logan Motion bookshelves and really liked them.

 

[tparm]

Yes, but, except you said you had "Polk Audio LSiM707/706C/703 combo". So unless you sit very close to them and you are the type of people who cannot tolerate any more than 70 dB average SPL, you are doing the right thing getting a 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohm real power amplifier. My only subtle message was, just because you have a power amp hooked up, don't expect hearings things you didn't hear before at low to moderate listening level unless you are highly imaginative. That's all, now you are properly prepared, so be ready for a nice surprise.
[/QU

I've seen you here for a while now and ask lots of good questions, participate in other threads and do lots of homework. All on amplification. I've seen you put way, way more effort into amplification specs and barely talk about the actual speakers. How many charts did you view of speaker performance before you bought them? Do you know as much about them as you do your amp?

Clearly you aren't a Polk fan... I did, I read and watched all the reviews I could find, Brent Butterworth's being the most worthwhile in my opinion as they included bench tests. I paid attention to on and off axis performance, frequency response and his subjective thoughts along with true sensitivity and load requirements. They measured well. And, I bought the whole system for less then the 707s retailed for back in the day, new with warranty, so that came into play.

I heard the 703s back in 2012 when they first came out and really liked them but they were out of my range at the time.

This thread was more specific to AVR/Amp combo since that is what I am shopping for currently and that is where most of time and recent questions are based on. Soon I'll go over to the subwoofer section and pick everyone's brains on ported 15" sub pairs. I have my own inclinations, based on research and actual measured performance, but I'll do what I can to learn from other's experiences.

I don't have a great deal of technical experience and I am sure I've tossed money down the drain over the years. But I enjoy the hunt, I like to tweak and research and I love to listen. You guys have been gracious with answering my questions and not (most of the time) making me feel like an idiot so I hang out here.

 

[Pogre]

Clearly you aren't a Polk fan... I did, I read and watched all the reviews I could find, Brent Butterworth's being the most worthwhile in my opinion as they included bench tests. I paid attention to on and off axis performance, frequency response and his subjective thoughts along with true sensitivity and load requirements. They measured well. And, I bought the whole system for less then the 707s retailed for back in the day, new with warranty, so that came into play.

I heard the 703s back in 2012 when they first came out and really liked them but they were out of my range at the time.

This thread was more specific to AVR/Amp combo since that is what I am shopping for currently and that is where most of time and recent questions are based on. Soon I'll go over to the subwoofer section and pick everyone's brains on ported 15" sub pairs. I have my own inclinations, based on research and actual measured performance, but I'll do what I can to learn from other's experiences.

I don't have a great deal of technical experience and I am sure I've tossed money down the drain over the years. But I enjoy the hunt, I like to tweak and research and I love to listen. You guys have been gracious with answering my questions and not (most of the time) making me feel like an idiot so I hang out here.

By all accounts those speakers are actually nice sounding speakers, if difficult to drive. There's an argument to be made for additional amplification for them for sure too, but you're going next level with some pricey amplification. That's where my disconnect is. If I had that kind budget allocated for amplification, I'd start asking myself what kind of speakers could I get instead?

Here's my logic, and it's not to beat you up, just a different perspective for maybe the next time you start getting itchy . You do have what I would consider good sounding speakers but you can do better (there's always better, I know the itch. It never ends), possibly a lot better with the kind of money you're allocating for amplification and they'd likely be easier speakers to drive.

If you think about it, 3 - 4k puts you in RAAL ribbon/beryllium tweeter and exotic driver territory in a pair of towers. My Sierra towers (with RAAL ribbon tweeters) were $3100 out the door. 90 dB sensitivity and super easy to drive.

 

[Pogre]

Totally depends if its Scotch or Bourbon that evening, I hear all sorts of things when I listen to female vocals and drink Scotch......

All jokes aside, and first of all, I know the Polks aren't the most audiophile - transparent speaker. I had a little money to spend and wouldn't thought twice about ordering the Monolith 5X had it been in stock. Since it wasn't I started snooping around. I've mentioned this to Peng, this is sort of an emotional system build for me as I am finally at age 48 building the home I've wanted to build for 20 years.

I know I am compromising and over spending on some things (I bought Kimber Kable PBJs for my Audiolab 6000N just because I've always wanted some PBJs (and they aren't that expensive)). So, I've always liked the idea of a Parasound amplifier. And ATI for that matter. I was able to buy a new one from a dealer for $600 more than the Monolith. So, screw it, I bought it.

Like others here I'm sure I go through gear. We will see how the Polks do once I am in my new space. I love Revel speakers (I've listened to Performas, not the Salons) and I owned the previous gen Martin Logan Motion bookshelves and really liked them.

I feel you. I do. I enjoy the hunt too. I've made many mistakes along the journey and threw some cash away myself. I think we all have. That said, you do have some nice gear so it's not like you have nothing to show for it. Like I said, I don't wanna make you feel like I'm beating you up. I've been there too. Just sharing some of what I've picked up along the way in my time here.

 

[tparm]

I feel you. I do. I enjoy the hunt too. I've made many mistakes along the journey and threw some cash away myself. I think we all have. That said, you do have some nice gear so it's not like you have nothing to show for it. Like I said, I don't wanna make you feel like I'm beating you up. I've been there too. Just sharing some of what I've picked up along the way in my time here.

Thanks @Pogre , I enjoy the conversations here. In couple of years I'll go speaker shopping. I'm not good at baby steps, when I go I'll buy all my bed speakers, cause you know, they gotta match.... I need to buy subs and then a TV. Then live with it a little and then the cycle begins again. PBJ here today, RCA connectors tomorrow so I can make my interconnects, AVR Wednesday and Amp Thursday. Then I need to figure out what the hell you guys are talking about over on the Audyssey thread.

 

[tparm]

Just went back and looked, I bought my 5 LSiMs for $2,300 delivered. Even better then I remembered!

 

[RickyT]

Yes, that's exactly what it means. Incidentally, according to ASR's measurements of the AVR-X4700H, the pre-out at 1.1 V happens to perform the best, with THD+N at -101 dB.

But jokes aside the specs are good, definitely much better than the Denon's internal amplifiers assuming such 25 years old amplifiers are in top shape.

Too bad lab tests (From old print magazines) of these old Citation amps aren’t available online. Since my recently acquired Denon 4400h is driving my rears and atmos speakers, I now have open Citation channels and bridged 4 channels to 450x2 to drive Revel M106s that Amir tested around 85db efficiency at 8 ohms.

However, I think it’s more than 450x2 and I’m worried might damage my speakers. The 7.1 has a 2.2kva toroidal power transformer, and never feels more than slightly warm...which implies not too much class A bias. Most class A/B amps are 50-60% efficient. I think the 150x4 rating might really be 250x4...1000 watts would imply only 45% efficiency.

250x4 would imply 750x2 bridged into 8 ohms. Can this damage the Revels? Should I drive them with unbridged channels, if the output is really close to 250 watts? I usually listen between -10 and -20.