Why is it so hard to find a integrated amp with the 3 things I want ?

[Davvy]

The 100 sounds a little fuller to my ears, but that's just my hearing. I've been a fan of MA products for years and always thought they were better the B&W for their 1st tier series speakers. While Klipsch has improved on what many considered a harsh sound with this series, I'm just not a fan of their products, so I have a bias. Their RFIII and it's previous verions we're great for home theater, just not critical listening and the "Platinum" series is really nice for critical listening, just not inexpensive. The others were mostly miss more then hit to me and many..

Seeing your MA fan, what do you think about the Silver 100s they look pretty awesome. But are they worth twice the price of the Bronze 100 ? Andrew Robinson in his review said there just a little bit better then the Bronze 100 and wasn't worth all that extra dough.

 

[dlaloum]

The maximum power specs for the Crown are absolutely immaterial if you're listening at 72dB, which is -14dB from the 1 W input sensitivity of your speakers. In either case, your output power is well below 1 Watt and you also need to consider which scale is used for the SPL reading- A weighted or C rated.

Yep - all of that! - But the key point is, the "power" does not appear to have been relevant - the ability to remain stable into a sub 2 ohm impedance is the likely key factor...

My point with SPL and power levels, is that SPL and power were irrelevant. - There was plenty of "power" - and results were rubbish... when it comes to amp stability into low impedance loads the power is not the key factor. - But having said that - a hugely powerful amp will often have enough current to remain stable into 2 ohm (at low to moderate power levels)... but it would be better if AMP/AVR manufacturers actually rated their products at 2 ohm and quoted the 2 ohm specs.

 

[Davvy]

I know this thread is at it's end probably and you guys have been a great help. But I have a last question concerning my Xbox series X console.

Should I hook up the Xbox to the AVR first before the TV or straight to the TV due to only using a two channel speaker setup and it won't make a diff either way ?

 

[dlaloum]

Best results vary due to handshake / HDMI etc....

I have heard some reports of sound getting out of sync when going direct to TV and then ARC/EARC back to the AVR.

Try whatever is most convenient for you... but be ready to switch if things don't work out... HDMI 2.1 is still in early iterations (!!!)

 

[oldloder]

X 2 ... it also depends on whether you like switching from your AVR or your TV. Congrats Davvy, have fun!

 

[oldloder]

And 2 channel vs multichannel playback doesn't affect how that will work.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yep - all of that! - But the key point is, the "power" does not appear to have been relevant - the ability to remain stable into a sub 2 ohm impedance is the likely key factor...

My point with SPL and power levels, is that SPL and power were irrelevant. - There was plenty of "power" - and results were rubbish... when it comes to amp stability into low impedance loads the power is not the key factor. - But having said that - a hugely powerful amp will often have enough current to remain stable into 2 ohm (at low to moderate power levels)... but it would be better if AMP/AVR manufacturers actually rated their products at 2 ohm and quoted the 2 ohm specs.

Still, hard to believe at the volume level you mentioned that even 2 ohm would be an issue....your avr does state dynamic power of 250w fwiw and we're lucky to even see a proper 4 ohm rating otoh. Then again a 2 ohm speaker on an avr overall might not be the best combo. I just haven't found an amp to make such an audible difference between two generally competent amps, particularly at such low levels.....but I'd like to understand what you experienced. Did you ever repeat the experiment?

 

[Davvy]

Best results vary due to handshake / HDMI etc....

I have heard some reports of sound getting out of sync when going direct to TV and then ARC/EARC back to the AVR.

Try whatever is most convenient for you... but be ready to switch if things don't work out... HDMI 2.1 is still in early iterations (!!!)

I would assume it would be the safest/most compatible to plug the Xbox directly to the TV then ARC/HDMI back to the AVR.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would assume it would be the safest/most compatible to plug the Xbox directly to the TV then ARC/HDMI back to the AVR.

With most gear I think it's better to connect to avr directly, plus ARC/eARC often comes with compatibility issues among different brands.

 

[dlaloum]

For ease of use, I would start by going XBOX > AVR > TV

If having issues, then try XBOX > TV > AVR

And make sure you adjust HDMI settings on both TV and AVR....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yep - all of that! - But the key point is, the "power" does not appear to have been relevant - the ability to remain stable into a sub 2 ohm impedance is the likely key factor...

My point with SPL and power levels, is that SPL and power were irrelevant. - There was plenty of "power" - and results were rubbish... when it comes to amp stability into low impedance loads the power is not the key factor. - But having said that - a hugely powerful amp will often have enough current to remain stable into 2 ohm (at low to moderate power levels)... but it would be better if AMP/AVR manufacturers actually rated their products at 2 ohm and quoted the 2 ohm specs.

@PENG and I have talked about this 2-ohm topic.

I think the Denon 3000 AVR series tested down to 2-ohm at ~ 170W and passed, while many external “Amps” failed this test. So just because it is an external amp doesn’t mean it will be more stable than an AVR or another amp like ATI.

If you own Maggies, I think The Audio Critic tested the ATI 60WPC amp down to 1-ohm using the power cube test.

Bottom line - just start at low volume and increase from there.

Also, other than some Maggies, what other speakers actually go down to 2-ohms and below?

 

[highfigh]

@PENG and I have talked about this 2-ohm topic.

I think the Denon 3000 AVR series tested down to 2-ohm at ~ 170W and passed, while many external “Amps” failed this test. So just because it is an external amp doesn’t mean it will be more stable than an AVR or another amp like ATI.

If you own Maggies, I think The Audio Critic tested the ATI 60WPC amp down to 1-ohm using the power cube test.

Bottom line - just start at low volume and increase from there.

Also, other than some Maggies, what other speakers actually go down to 2-ohms and below?

As I have posted before, I think the Power Cube should be used for all amplifier testing. That would make comparison and elimination much easier.

 

[fmw]

Thanks, maybe I should just get a AVR then, it would save me some money too.

Bingo. The speakers are what matter. The rest is trivial by comparison.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As I have posted before, I think the Power Cube should be used for all amplifier testing. That would make comparison and elimination much easier.

Yeah, the Power Cube would have been more standard practice if The Audio Critic had lasted - back in good old days when they knew that all these THD+N, SNR, Crosstalk, etc., were inaudible and focused on the power cubes for amps (although they still measured all these parameters back then).

Now the "standard" practice is SINAD.

 

[highfigh]

Yeah, the Power Cube would have been more standard practice if The Audio Critic had lasted - back in good old days when they knew that all these THD+N, SNR, Crosstalk, etc., were inaudible and focused on the power cubes for amps (although they still measured all these parameters back then).

Now the "standard" practice is SINAD.

That's great, but it doesn't show how well (or poorly) and amplifier deals with a capacitive or inductive load. Car audio used it for a while, but I stopped working in that part of audio in '97 and didn't go to manufacturer training sessions anymore. In the past, I mentioned that Rockford Fosgate and some others used this for marketing and it really showed some weakness in many brands. Since the amplifiers were frequently used for subwoofers, it was very useful. I think low SINAD can be assumed at this point, I really want to see what an amplifier can do WRT dealing with angry loads.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, the Power Cube would have been more standard practice if The Audio Critic had lasted - back in good old days when they knew that all these THD+N, SNR, Crosstalk, etc., were inaudible and focused on the power cubes for amps (although they still measured all these parameters back then).

Now the "standard" practice is SINAD.

I know you are kidding, because you know that standard practice or not, SINAD, an alternate term for THD+N (so it is not new), like power into 8 ohm, 20-20000 Hz +/- 3 dB have been the most used audio electronics specs for at least 50 years.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know you are kidding, because you know that standard practice or not, SINAD, an alternate term for THD+N (so it is not new), like power into 8 ohm, 20-20000 Hz +/- 3 dB have been the most used audio electronics specs for at least 50 years.

This is definitely a sidetrack, so pardon the interruption.

I did say that THD+N, SNR, Crosstalk, etc., have been measured for many years. And we've been talking about them for many years.

And SINAD is the inverse (alternate term) for THD+N. But WHY use it in the first place when it's just an ALTERNATE term? Does it ADD any more useful information?

Why not just continue using THD+N since it's been used since FOREVER?

With that out of the way and back to the fact that we've been talking about THD+N for many years now, it seems like THD+N has always been good to discuss, but not OVEREMPHASIZED over Power Output or other specs. Back then, THD+N was just "one of the guys", sort to speak.

With all these THD+N numbers being inaudible, why make such a big fuss over them?

 

[lovinthehd]

This is definitely a sidetrack, so pardon the interruption.

I did say that THD+N, SNR, Crosstalk, etc., have been measured for many years. And we've been talking about them for many years.

And SINAD is the inverse (alternate term) for THD+N. But WHY use it in the first place when it's just an ALTERNATE term? Does it ADD any more useful information?

Why not just continue using THD+N since it's been used since FOREVER?

With that out of the way and back to the fact that we've been talking about THD+N for many years now, it seems like THD+N has always been good to discuss, but not OVEREMPHASIZED over Power Output or other specs. Back then, THD+N was just "one of the guys", sort to speak.

With all these THD+N numbers being inaudible, why make such a big fuss over them?

You make more a fuss over SINAD than many, tho

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's great, but it doesn't show how well (or poorly) and amplifier deals with a capacitive or inductive load. Car audio used it for a while, but I stopped working in that part of audio in '97 and didn't go to manufacturer training sessions anymore. In the past, I mentioned that Rockford Fosgate and some others used this for marketing and it really showed some weakness in many brands. Since the amplifiers were frequently used for subwoofers, it was very useful. I think low SINAD can be assumed at this point, I really want to see what an amplifier can do WRT dealing with angry loads.

Oh, I agree. I was just kidding about the SINAD.

I think Power Output is a lot more important than THD+N because all the THD+N levels are so low and inaudible.

 

[panteragstk]

You make more a fuss over SINAD than many, tho

Cause it's an easy number to focus on. Especially for those that don't really understand why the numbers are important.