Why is it so hard to find a integrated amp with the 3 things I want ?

[Davvy]

I think you have a pretty good short list. The only one I would knock off would be the Klipsch.

I would take a look at the KEF range of coaxial speakers. They measure well, and coaxial speakers have a lot of advantages, when it comes to speech reproduction and use in the AV environment. In addition it makes adding a center an easy proposition. Coaxial designs are the absolute optimal for center channels, and that way you will have a perfectly matched front three.

Do you find the Evo 4.1, Polk Reserve 200 and the Elac ref Debut I have on my list all with very similar sound sig though ?

Here's the thing many people say Klipsch speakers have a certain sound as do all speakers but I'm new this and I just don't know what I'll like the best. I want to buy two sets of speakers right off the bat Klipsch 600II and see if I like them and see what the fuss is about and buy something else at the same time too, something thats different like a Elac, Evo 4.1 or Reserve 200 for the more neutral sound and not a V type speaker like the klipsch has. I'll check out the Kefs and Revel M16 tonight when I get home. I'm pretty sure Andrew Robinson has a review on them both. I'm Def buying two diff speakers.

 

[Davvy]

Hey by the way how come the Kef's bookshelf speakers don't have a Twitter like most speakers do?

 

[everettT]

Hey by the way how come the Kef's bookshelf speakers don't have a Twitter like most speakers do?

The tweeter is located in the midrange to help with time alignment and the benefits of the midrange being a waveguide which helps crossing the tweeter at a lower point. That's a simple explanation

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey by the way how come the Kef's bookshelf speakers don't have a Twitter like most speakers do?

They do have a tweeter. It is a coaxial speaker, so the tweeter is in the center of the bass/mid cone, for a really coherent integrated sound. I think you would like those. Also it makes upgrade to 3.1 really easy. I use coaxial drivers for my centers.

 

[Swerd]

Do you find the Evo 4.1, Polk Reserve 200 and the Elac ref Debut I have on my list all with very similar sound sig though ?

Those three speakers all seem to have an overall neutral sound balance, neither bass heavy or too bright. They all have minor flaws, but I can see no major flaws. I'd have to listen to them before I could pick one that I might prefer.

Speaker measurements are good at identifying flaws in a speaker. They're especially useful at guiding a speaker designer during the design process. But once you've eliminated speakers with obvious flaws, I think it is difficult to identify a speaker, with measurements alone, that will make you happy in the long run. You have to listen to them for that.

One thing I personally look for in a speaker (when listening to 2-channel stereo) is it's ability to create the illusion of music that comes from outside the speaker cabinets, instead of coming only from inside the boxes. Some people call that realistic imaging or broad sound stage. What measurement(s) tell you something about that?

Look for a speakers ability to perform well (±3 dB) at listening angles away from the center axis – straight on, or 0° off-axis. This is especially important in mid-range frequencies, the voice discrimination range of sound. In 2-way speakers, like the ones you're focusing on, this range is right about where the crossover between the woofer and tweeter occurs. If the crossover frequency is somewhat higher than the woofer can manage for good off-axis performance, such as 30° off-axis, the speaker will sound like there's a 'hole in the middle', lifeless, no energy or presence. So crossover performance becomes important. Not too high for the woofer's off-axis performance, and no dips or cancellations allowed within 1 octave of the crossover frequency.

The various speaker measurements all attempt to show a speaker's off-axis performance, but they only do that indirectly. Once you hear speaker that images well, you'll know it. But it can be hard to put this in words, or clearly show it in measurements.

 

[Swerd]

everettT and TLS Guy are right. The tweeter is at the center of the mid-woofer.

KEF is the leader in coaxial speaker design.

 

[dlaloum]

I've used a $500 MSRP 50WPC 5.1CH AVR to power speakers with measurements that show a minimum impedance of 2.7 ohm. I would say the total volume was below 95dB. The room was 18x20x10' ceiling, couch was back of the room.

The salient thing is to not use crazy loud volume. And if any doubts, start at low volume and increase slowly.

My current 100W@8ohm Integra DRX 3.4, sounded congested, with a somewhat collapsed sound stage into my 4 ohm nominal Gallo speakers (efficiency is circa 86db/Wm) - listening level at MLP was 72db (using Radio Shack SPL meter) - playing stereo only.

Using it as a pre, and putting a Crown XLS2500 amp on to drive the same speakers cleaned up the congestion, brought back the full sound stage, and made the setup sound like I know it can and should... (it does 440W@8ohm and 1200W@2ohm) - listening volume was the same 72db.

The point is, when it comes to loads that drop below an amps design envelope, the audible results are highly unpredictable. Some, like my own Quad 606 amp, will handle it just fine, as long as you don't drive it too hard (it is specced as "stable into any load"... but can only put 90W into 2 ohm... that is equivalent to roughly 22W@8ohm... even though it is spec 135W@8ohm) - I know of no AVR that is rated for 2 ohm.

So when you take a 4 ohm rated AVR, like my own, and drive a nominally 4 ohm speaker, the results remain unpredictable... in my case, the tweeter drops down to 1.6ohm, and the amps get unhappy at that load level, and audibly start to misbehave... even though they are not being driven to very high levels.

Having said that, this is probably a relatively unusual "edge" case - but it pays to try to find out what the actual impedance/frequency behaviour of a set of speakers looks like, as it can predict such issues!

 

[highfigh]

My current 100W@8ohm Integra DRX 3.4, sounded congested, with a somewhat collapsed sound stage into my 4 ohm nominal Gallo speakers (efficiency is circa 86db/Wm) - listening level at MLP was 72db (using Radio Shack SPL meter) - playing stereo only.

Using it as a pre, and putting a Crown XLS2500 amp on to drive the same speakers cleaned up the congestion, brought back the full sound stage, and made the setup sound like I know it can and should... (it does 440W@8ohm and 1200W@2ohm) - listening volume was the same 72db.

The point is, when it comes to loads that drop below an amps design envelope, the audible results are highly unpredictable. Some, like my own Quad 606 amp, will handle it just fine, as long as you don't drive it too hard (it is specced as "stable into any load"... but can only put 90W into 2 ohm... that is equivalent to roughly 22W@8ohm... even though it is spec 135W@8ohm) - I know of no AVR that is rated for 2 ohm.

So when you take a 4 ohm rated AVR, like my own, and drive a nominally 4 ohm speaker, the results remain unpredictable... in my case, the tweeter drops down to 1.6ohm, and the amps get unhappy at that load level, and audibly start to misbehave... even though they are not being driven to very high levels.

Having said that, this is probably a relatively unusual "edge" case - but it pays to try to find out what the actual impedance/frequency behaviour of a set of speakers looks like, as it can predict such issues!

The maximum power specs for the Crown are absolutely immaterial if you're listening at 72dB, which is -14dB from the 1 W input sensitivity of your speakers. In either case, your output power is well below 1 Watt and you also need to consider which scale is used for the SPL reading- A weighted or C rated.

 

[lovinthehd]

My current 100W@8ohm Integra DRX 3.4, sounded congested, with a somewhat collapsed sound stage into my 4 ohm nominal Gallo speakers (efficiency is circa 86db/Wm) - listening level at MLP was 72db (using Radio Shack SPL meter) - playing stereo only.

Using it as a pre, and putting a Crown XLS2500 amp on to drive the same speakers cleaned up the congestion, brought back the full sound stage, and made the setup sound like I know it can and should... (it does 440W@8ohm and 1200W@2ohm) - listening volume was the same 72db.

The point is, when it comes to loads that drop below an amps design envelope, the audible results are highly unpredictable. Some, like my own Quad 606 amp, will handle it just fine, as long as you don't drive it too hard (it is specced as "stable into any load"... but can only put 90W into 2 ohm... that is equivalent to roughly 22W@8ohm... even though it is spec 135W@8ohm) - I know of no AVR that is rated for 2 ohm.

So when you take a 4 ohm rated AVR, like my own, and drive a nominally 4 ohm speaker, the results remain unpredictable... in my case, the tweeter drops down to 1.6ohm, and the amps get unhappy at that load level, and audibly start to misbehave... even though they are not being driven to very high levels.

Having said that, this is probably a relatively unusual "edge" case - but it pays to try to find out what the actual impedance/frequency behaviour of a set of speakers looks like, as it can predict such issues!

How does an avr sound "congested"? I've got no speakers that magically get better at those kind of levels with amps (and I have several Crowns among others).

 

[Kvn_Walker]

As the resident NR1200 owner, I'll chime in. I use my preamp outs to an external amp since power is cheap. But for our living room, the Marantz' internal amp would likely be fine 95% of the time.

It's a good receiver for its purpose, but it made more sense when it sold for $600 vs the current $800 price. For $800 you're better off buying a multichannel AVR with room correction and just running it in 2-channel mode.

Which leads me to my next point. I'm not sure why you are fixated with tone controls. They're an outdated relic, honestly. Most tone controls are fixed frequency (usually 100Hz for bass and 10kHz for treble) and they will generally cause more problems than they fix. If your room has, say, a fixed 12dB boost at 40Hz, adjusting the bass knob will do nothing to fix it. If you have a room dip at or near 100Hz, you can turn the bass knob high as you want and it will only overtax your amp and speakers without solving the problem. I run my NR1200 in Direct Mode, which prevent bass, treble, and balance from being adjusted.

Far as features go, the free internet radio is great, and my stepkids have used the Bluetooth a few times and like the feature.

If you want equalization you should look into built-in room correction abilities or a wider band equalization.

Marantz is supposed to be replacing the NR1200 with a "Stereo 70s" model next year, but I have a strong suspicion it will never be released. IF it does, I really hope it features room correction, otherwise I won't even consider buying it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How does an avr sound "congested"? I've got no speakers that magically get better at those kind of levels with amps (and I have several Crowns among others).

Yeah in the real world the AVR would just shut down if it comes close to clipping.

Don’t know about actually hearing congestion or compression, which could happen even without any clipping or distortion at all.

IMO, congestive or compressed sound usually just means it doesn’t sound “good”, which can be due to many other factors.

 

[highfigh]

Yeah in the real world the AVR would just shut down if it comes close to clipping.

Don’t know about actually hearing congestion or compression, which could happen even without any clipping or distortion at all.

IMO, congestive or compressed sound usually just means it doesn’t sound “good”, which can be due to many other factors.

At the SPL the OP wrote about, I wonder what was causing the congestion- the amp wasn't exactly being pushed to its limits and at -14dB from the speaker's sensitivity spec for 1W input (if it was 2.83VAC into 4 Ohms, it was 1/2 Watt), it was operating at about .1 Watt. At that level, thermal compression isn't an option.

 

[oldloder]

dlaloum, I've had a drx3.4 for the past couple of months and I haven't dug into the menus to try and straighten it out but one annoying thing it does is sometimes start in a different mode than I was using when I previously shut it down. So, if I am listening in 2 CH stereo when I turn it off at night watching TV and the next day turn it on it randomly defaults back to a multichannel mode and since I only have my mains connected right now and because a multichannel mode does not send a full unprocessed signal to the mains it sounds almost like what could be described as "congested" sound at MANY decibels lower volume (72dB quite possible). All I have to do is hit the "Music" button on the remote and select 2 Channel stereo and bingo, everything goes back to normal stereo volume and clarity. Most AVR's have a setting where you can select a program mode default for any given input but I just haven't done it yet.
Nice amps you have there ... your 606 is spec'd for 140W into 8 ohms and also spec'd for 4 ohm loads. Your DRX3.4, 606 or XLS can drive your speakers to ear damaging levels ... a poor speaker/amp impedance/power match is not your problem.

To Davvy, there has been a lot of good information here in this thread but a lot of it would most likely unnecessarily complicate your speaker selection process. The vast majority of commercially offered speakers are designed to be nominal 8 ohm loads so they can be driven by the vast majority of commercially available AVR'S! If it wasn't that way user reviews would be complaining all the time about how their receivers keep shutting down into auto-protection modes. Just check the speakers you are considering to make sure they are not super crazy loads ... I would bet most if not all of the bookshelves you listed are no less than 8 ohms, maybe 6 ohm nominal. Even if you have an AVR is only spec'd for 8 ohm loads if you don't push them really hard your receiver will be fine. If you get an avr that can drive 4 ohms have fun auditioning whatever speaker interests you.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

one annoying thing it does is sometimes start in a different mode than I was using when I previously shut it down. So, if I am listening in 2 CH stereo when I turn it off at night watching TV and the next day turn it on it randomly defaults back to a multichannel mode

Ha, this is what my 5.1 Yamaha would do. Annoyed the hell out of me. That's exactly why I went and bought a DRA-800H (which I later sold and got the NR1200).

 

[oldloder]

Ha, this is what my 5.1 Yamaha would do. Annoyed the hell out of me. That's exactly why I went and bought a DRA-800H (which I later sold and got the NR1200).

Yep, never had a receiver do that to me before.

Glad to hear your NR1200 experience and your explanation is spot on with tone controls. I have an NR1200 also but only use it in my office so I only relayed my other Marantz slim experience. The thing that kills me with the NR1200 is there is no high pass for the mains ... kind of mind blowing to leave that out. I hope the 70's thing comes with that feature also!

 

[oldloder]

My current 100W@8ohm Integra DRX 3.4, sounded congested, with a somewhat collapsed sound stage into my 4 ohm nominal Gallo speakers (efficiency is circa 86db/Wm) - listening level at MLP was 72db (using Radio Shack SPL meter) - playing stereo only.

...

Having said that, this is probably a relatively unusual "edge" case - but it pays to try to find out what the actual impedance/frequency behaviour of a set of speakers looks like, as it can predict such issues!

Just went back and looked up your speakers ... I may stand corrected as your speakers are very likely unusual as you describe ... and very interesting indeed! When something "isn't right" it can sometimes be clear even at low volumes for sure. Still, an interesting issue with the DRX random startup mode changes.

 

[Davvy]

Well I just bought a bunch of stuff including speaker stands.
I got the Elac Ref Debuts and the Monitor Audio Bronze 100s. I'd like to buy a 3rd set of speakers to change it up what do you guys think if I got the Klipsch 600II or would it be to close to Bronze 100s, don't these both have that V frequency ? or does 600II separate themselves enough to warrant a purchase?

 

[everettT]

Well I just bought a bunch of stuff including speaker stands.
I got the Elac Ref Debuts and the Monitor Audio Bronze 100s. I'd like to buy a 3rd set of speakers to change it up what do you guys think if I got the Klipsch 600II or would it be to close to Bronze 100s, don't these both have that V frequency ? or does 600II separate themselves enough to warrant a purchase?

The Klipsch isn't horrible, but I'd like a speaker with a little less distortion in the midrange. Below 85db it's not really an issue but there are others that look better that you have been looking at and linked

Klipsch RP-600M II Bookshelf Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-600M II Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[Davvy]

The Klipsch isn't horrible, but I'd like a speaker with a little less distortion in the midrange. Below 85db it's not really an issue but there are others that look better that you have been looking at and linked

Klipsch RP-600M II Bookshelf Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-600M II Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Yeah I've already seen that I'm just wondering if I get the 600ii if it's go similar too the Bronze 100. Dam, I just noticed the KEFs350 are on right now for $499.

 

[everettT]

Yeah I've already seen that I'm just wondering if I get the 600ii if it's go similar too the Bronze 100.

The 100 sounds a little fuller to my ears, but that's just my hearing. I've been a fan of MA products for years and always thought they were better the B&W for their 1st tier series speakers. While Klipsch has improved on what many considered a harsh sound with this series, I'm just not a fan of their products, so I have a bias. Their RFIII and it's previous verions we're great for home theater, just not critical listening and the "Platinum" series is really nice for critical listening, just not inexpensive. The others were mostly miss more then hit to me and many..