Why is it so hard to find a integrated amp with the 3 things I want ?

[Davvy]

On my Denon 2015 model AVR X4200W the tone controls are not enabled if DynamicEQ is on.

That's interesting, so it's very possible that if I use a EQ program that it disables the tone controls.

 

[Davvy]

As a rule of thumb - I would allocate a larger budget to speakers than to AVR....

Roughly speaking my speakers cost about 2x what my AVR did

In terms of getting optimal sound - there are aspects of the speakers that are more or less fixed - dispersion pattern, transparency, also the specific type of colourations (distortion) that a speaker imposes.

For example - Electrostatics are very very transparent and low distortion - but (depending on design) - they can be SPL limited, as well as bass limited, and some designs have a very small optimal listening space (narrow MLP) - but some people will happily live with their limitations in exchange for the perfection of their transparency and low distortion (something that very few if any dynamic speakers can match)

Alternatively some people will happily sacrifice some transparency in exchange for thunderous bass, and kick drums that can really give you that "thump in the chest" feeling .... stats won't do that!

Movies have loads of thunderous bass effects - and that can be achieved with good subs, or with good full range speakers - but if you want excellent high quality timbre, in addition to bass sound pressure levels for effects - that can get expensive too...

You need to know what compromises you are willing to make - and what compromises you AREN'T willing to make (unless price is no object - we all have to make our compromises!)

Once you have chosen your speakers - this will then drive what the AVR you choose will need...

If you have speakers with high SPL efficiency (high output per Watt) then you will be able to live with a less powerful AVR.... if they are lower SPL efficiency you will need a more powerful AVR.
If the speakers have an 8ohm impedance - they will work well with almost any AVR, if they have a 4ohm impedance - then you will need to carefully choose the AVR, as they will need more current (and it can be hard to determine which AVR's will work for speakers that require high current) - for 4 ohm speakers you may need to investigate further and find an impedance/frequency chart to help with determining what kind of amp they might need.

Some speakers (including my own mains - Anthony Gallo Reference 3.2) - just don't suit most AVR's - my speakers drop down to 1.6ohm (even though the specifications state 4 ohm)- and that means that most AVR's struggle to provide the current required.... which is why I run external power amps with them.
My previous speakers (Quad ESL63 & Quad ESL989) worked just fine with the AVR, and didn't require an external amp to get the best from them.

So pick the speakers first - and then you look around for an amp to suit them.
The speakers will have the biggest impact on the overall "sound" or "voicing" of the system.

The Voicing of the system can of course be tuned, if you have a sufficiently sophisticated AVR (most AVR's have some sort of Speaker/Room EQ software built in... this gets better as you go up the range with AVR's) - but best results are achieved by starting off with speakers that are voiced as you like them, and then using the AVR for final fine tuning - not by getting speakers that don't suit you then trying to get EQ to completely change their sound.

(I had to sacrifice my Quad electrostatics on the altar of domestic harmony - my Gallo speakers were chosen to be suitable for domestic harmony - but also because they sound very "electristatic like" - very transparent)

So I wanna make sure I get an AVR that can push 4 ohms. So if the specs say for example 100watts into 8 ohms and 160watts into 4ohms then I should be fine. But if all it says is a 8ohms spec and doesn't mention 4ohms then look elsewhere ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That was a lot of good information in the last few posts, especially the bit about worrying more about speakers than what's driving them and a good avr will sound as practically as good as ingrated amp of about equal value and not worrying about what class amps are.

So anyway I'm interested in these avrs.

Onkyo TX RN6100 $799
Second choice, Denon x2800h $1199

The Onkyo have tone controls right on the remote, but I checked the Denon's manual it has them too, but I'm assuming it's separate from adyssey and I'll be able to access them easily otherwise I won't get the Denon.

By the way if I want a certain sound of signature should that only be sought through the speakers and not do AVR right, I think someone said already.

I was gonna ask which one do you think would sound better the Denon or the onkyo and do they have similar sound signatures like if one is more neutral than the other, but I understand that might be a really difficult question to answer. I just want something easy to use, which one would you choose or suggest.

By the way these are the speakers I'm interested in and I'm actually kind of probably going to buy a couple of the ones I'm mentioning. After watching so many videos of people auditioning speakers I kind of have the itch to have multiple pairs of speakers also.

MA Bronze 100
Klipsch 600II
WD EVO 4.1
Polk Reserve 200
Elac Debut Ref DBR62

So as you can see my price range for speakers is about between $500 and $600 give or take.

By the way what's the rule of thumb if I buy $500-$600 speaker's approximately how much should I spend on a AVR ?

Thanks

Usually spend no more or not much more on electronics than speakers. So for $600 speakers, I would cap the AVR at $1K.

But I do see plenty of people spending 2 - 4 times more on electronics than speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's interesting, so it's very possible that if I use a EQ program that it disables the tone controls.

Unless you use a Yamaha AVR, which allows both auto EQ (if you want) + Manual PEQ, like the RX-A4 (5 YR warranty).

Also keep in mind that MOST $1K AVR are capable of powering MOST consumer 4-ohm speakers, especially when the volume isn’t CRAZY LOUD. If you are ever worried, always start at low to medium volume and go up. Most AVR have protection circuits so if they are not able to handle the speakers, the AVR will shut down by itself. Also, keep the AVR well ventilated- use fans if the AVR gets too hot.

If all you care about is manual Tone control, then just focus on Warranty, customer service, reliability, heat, cost.

And probably avoid brands that tend to file bankruptcy every year.

 

[Davvy]

I know I mentioned tone controls as being important, I really don't want to use them if I don't have to it's always seemed important to me to have though and in the end when I do have my equipment maybe I'll never need them.

 

[Davvy]

That is nowhere near enough. You can not get decent speakers for that money, even if you build them yourself. You can not even buy decent drivers for that money, before you even build a box and build a crossover. You have your priorities backwards. Speaker quality is totally dominant in the sound of a system.

With all due respect, you're exaggerating. Maybe you're just too elite. I realize I'm on enthusiast audio forum but still. There are good bookshelf speakers in the $500 to $700 range. I don't think I mentioned it before but I'm only looking into bookshelf speakers not towers. I have a single income and everything cost more these days. I'm not spending thousands of dollars on some damn speakers. People can enjoy this hobby without having to spend 5k-10k. I would totally agree with you if I was saying I was interested in $100-200 speakers.

 

[dlaloum]

So I wanna make sure I get an AVR that can push 4 ohms. So if the specs say for example 100watts into 8 ohms and 160watts into 4ohms then I should be fine. But if all it says is a 8ohms spec and doesn't mention 4ohms then look elsewhere ?

Most AVR's will handle 8ohm and 4ohm - it is when the speakers get below 4 ohm that things get difficult.

Speaker "nominal impedance" is an indication of the average impedance over the frequency range of the speaker - it tells you very little about the peaks and troughs of the impedance....

It is not unusual for an 8 ohm speake to have troughs in impedance down at 5 ohm or 4 ohm...

Which means an 8ohm speaker is "safe".

But similarly a 4 ohm "nominal" speaker could have troughs down below 2 ohm - and that will cause issues with many amps.

The best option is to have a full frequency/impedance chart for the speakers - unfortunately few manufacturers publish that!!

So the safe option is to seek 8 ohm speakers ... or very high powered AVR.... or an AVR with pre-outs so you can drive difficult speakers using external high powered amps.

I have had flagship Onkyo / Integra AVR's that could handle the difficult speakers - they were rated at 140W@8ohm, but measured at 165W@8ohm stereo... they also weighed 30kg - which is about double or triple what most AVR's weigh - huge transformers and capacitors allowing for massive current - and they were not cheap. (Onkyo TX-SR876, Integra DTR 70.4)

For real confidence an amp should provide a rating at 2 ohm - but none of the AVR's do.

All the current decent AVR's are rated for both 8ohm and 4ohm speakers - but like I said, just because the speaker is nominally 4 ohm does not tell you whether it will be a problem speaker or an easy speaker - you would need to see an impedance chart/graph... if it drops below 3ohm, it will be a difficult speaker to drive.

Typically that means that anything below the top couple of models in each manufacturers range, is likely to have difficulty handling such speakers.

 

[oldloder]

Right on Davvy ... you are not doing anything crazy or exhorbitant with your budget or your approach. You are spending enough on your electronics that they will not be the limiting factor in your system and the idea you mentioned about getting a couple of the speakers you mentioned is a really smart way to go because hearing them in the room and in the position in the room (on a bookshelf, against wall or on a stand up to 3 feet away from the wall) will have everything to do with which sounds best to you. And what sounds best to you is completely subjective ... what you like is what you should have! The proximity of the speakers to the wall will have a LOT to do with how they sound so play with that if you want or have placement options. If you buy two or three pairs you listen to them side by side or even A B test them by flipping back and forth and in so doing you will hear how speakers can be so different and what suits you.

Back to the R1200 ... there are many who still use tone controls and just a little bit of a tweak will make all the difference you want or need especially if you have some speakers to compare in your room where you want to put them. I looked at your selection of speakers and since they were all bookshelves it's unlikely you will be driving super hard speaker loads but the NR1200 can still power one pair of 4 ohm speakers and two pairs of speakers at 8 ohms ... and the 75 watts they put out is PLENTY for most commercial offerings unless they are in an enormous room or you're listening at ear splitting levels. You could always add a standalone alone amp one day if you itch to upgrade. The 1200 has almost every kind of input you could ask for and has A and B speaker switching on the remote (as do many Marantz receivers) so you can compare speakers in the same track with the flip of a switch while you are deciding and also drive two pairs in the same or different rooms as you said you can see have a couple of pairs at some point. I think the next upgrade on your list would be a subwoofer depending on what you listen to and if you are watching movies.

All of the above praise for the NR1200 said ... AVR's that offer room correction like Audyssey or DIRAC do make equalization and tone adjustment easy and fairly simple but there is no substitute auditioning speakers live in your room with the music you like to listen to and IMHO will give you the best place to start ... and it can be fun and interesting!

Your budget and approach is perfectly fine ... have fun!

 

[TLS Guy]

With all due respect, you're exaggerating. Maybe you're just too elite. I realize I'm on enthusiast audio forum but still. There are good bookshelf speakers in the $500 to $700 range. I don't think I mentioned it before but I'm only looking into bookshelf speakers not towers. I have a single income and everything cost more these days. I'm not spending thousands of dollars on some damn speakers. People can enjoy this hobby without having to spend 5k-10k. I would totally agree with you if I was saying I was interested in $100-200 speakers.

With all that fuss you were making over electronics, it never occurred to me you were only looking at powering bookshelves. In that case these would suit you well.

The problem with bookshelves though is that they really do require a sub, whereas with tower speakers you can often get by without one. So in the end the expense can be a wash.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With all due respect, you're exaggerating. Maybe you're just too elite. I realize I'm on enthusiast audio forum but still. There are good bookshelf speakers in the $500 to $700 range. I don't think I mentioned it before but I'm only looking into bookshelf speakers not towers. I have a single income and everything cost more these days. I'm not spending thousands of dollars on some damn speakers. People can enjoy this hobby without having to spend 5k-10k. I would totally agree with you if I was saying I was interested in $100-200 speakers.

He hates AVR also. So if you're not buying $2K+ speakers plus AVP + Amps, he's not gonna give any moral support.

The salient thing is that at the end of the day your system sounds great to you and you are happy with your system.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But similarly a 4 ohm "nominal" speaker could have troughs down below 2 ohm - and that will cause issues with many amps.

I've used a $500 MSRP 50WPC 5.1CH AVR to power speakers with measurements that show a minimum impedance of 2.7 ohm. I would say the total volume was below 95dB. The room was 18x20x10' ceiling, couch was back of the room.

The salient thing is to not use crazy loud volume. And if any doubts, start at low volume and increase slowly.

 

[Davvy]

With all that fuss you were making over electronics, it never occurred to me you were only looking at powering bookshelves. In that case these would suit you well.

The problem with bookshelves though is that they really do require a sub, whereas with tower speakers you can often get by without one. So in the end the expense can be a wash.

Making a fuss LOL, your good. I didn't think of mentioning it. But yeah $500 for towers would be a no no. A sub won't happen right now, I want to get everything else first.

 

[highfigh]

LOL, I think $500-600 is enough.

If you consider spending $500-$600 on speakers and much more on amplification, then reverse the prices, you'll definitely have a better sounding system. Sometimes, it's possible to find low-priced speakers that sound really good, but it's not easy.

Mid-priced electronics usually sound just fine with better speakers but with speakers that can't do what you want, you'll never hear what you think high priced electronics should deliver. The speaker price range you're looking at is a difficult one- they usually sound good, but the lowest octave is left wanting- they almost do everything, but can't.

Speakers determine the 'sound' of the system and there's more to this than just frequency response specs- some speakers direct the sound in a narrower path, some provide better off-axis response and they need to work in the room where they'll be located. Also, this dispersion makes a difference when placing the speakers- some work well near a back wall, some don't, some sound better when you're on-axis, some sound fine when you're not in a small 'sweet spot'. One brand won't sound the same as others- call it 'personality', 'sonic signature' or whatever, a lot of factors determine the sound quality and it can take time to find the ones you prefer, partially because there's always something in the music you listen to that brings out the best and worst in a given speaker. NOTHING is perfect but if you make the decision to buy speakers, it's best to listen,- don't buy the specs.

Also, if you like a speaker that doesn't have two sets of binding posts, DO NOT reject them as your choice- those don't add a single thing to the sound.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you consider spending $500-$600 on speakers and much more on amplification, then reverse the prices, you'll definitely have a better sounding system. Sometimes, it's possible to find low-priced speakers that sound really good, but it's not easy.

Mid-priced electronics usually sound just fine with better speakers but with speakers that can't do what you want, you'll never hear what you think high priced electronics should deliver. The speaker price range you're looking at is a difficult one- they usually sound good, but the lowest octave is left wanting- they almost do everything, but can't.

Speakers determine the 'sound' of the system and there's more to this than just frequency response specs- some speakers direct the sound in a narrower path, some provide better off-axis response and they need to work in the room where they'll be located. Also, this dispersion makes a difference when placing the speakers- some work well near a back wall, some don't, some sound better when you're on-axis, some sound fine when you're not in a small 'sweet spot'. One brand won't sound the same as others- call it 'personality', 'sonic signature' or whatever, a lot of factors determine the sound quality and it can take time to find the ones you prefer, partially because there's always something in the music you listen to that brings out the best and worst in a given speaker. NOTHING is perfect but if you make the decision to buy speakers, it's best to listen,- don't buy the specs.

Also, if you like a speaker that doesn't have two sets of binding posts, DO NOT reject them as your choice- those don't add a single thing to the sound.

Making a fuss LOL, your good. I didn't think of mentioning it. But yeah $500 for towers would be a no no. A sub won't happen right now, I want to get everything else first.

Then I think if you go with those bookshelves and ad a sub or two later you will be fine. With those speakers I suggested you can add another, turn it on its side, and you have a nice 3.1 system.

 

[Swerd]

By the way these are the speakers I'm interested in and I'm actually kind of probably going to buy a couple of the ones I'm mentioning.
MA Bronze 100
Klipsch 600II
WD EVO 4.1
Polk Reserve 200
Elac Debut Ref DBR62

Your price range of $500 to $600 per pair makes it difficult for me to pick a clear winner. To be honest, I've come to the conclusion that the minimum I'd personally spend on a pair of bookshelf speakers is about $900 to $1100. But that's what I prefer and what I would pay. What counts here is your speaker preferences and your ability/desire to pay.

So I spent some time this morning looking over your speaker list. I looked for reviews that include reliable measurements. In my opinion, most reviews that only include verbal descriptions of sound quality are at best unreliable, more often are worthless, and at worst they're no different than paid advertising. First, here's where I looked:

• SoundStage! – This is the widely accepted gold standard in loudspeaker measurements. They publish measurements made at the Canadian National Research Council. It's easy to compare measurements of different speakers that they've had in their hands. Unfortunately, not all speakers are measured here.
• Stereophile Speaker Reviews – Skip the reviewers written comments – they're almost all BS. Go straight to the measurements.
• Erin's Audio Corner – Good measurements with minimal comments, and no little or no BS.
• AudioScienceReviews – Another audio forum. The reviews tend to be very complex looking, but that's because the owner believes he has to dazzle people with his brilliance. Don't waste your time reading all the forum posts that follow a review.

During this thread, you and others have mentioned amps rated at 8 ohms and 4 ohms with regard to how easy or difficult it is to drive a pair of speakers. Evaluating how easy it is to drive speakers starts with 8 ohms vs. 4 ohms, but there's more. A speaker's impedance isn't a single constant number. It changes with the audio frequency – you really should see a graph of impedance (in ohms) vs. frequency across the full audio range, 20 to 20,000 Hz. Speakers with about 8 ohms impedance can drop to 4 ohms or lower somewhere in the bass range.

Similarly, you should also see a graph of impedance phase angle (in degrees) across the full audio range. In some speakers, the measured impedance phase angles go through a wide range of phase angles in roughly the same frequency range where they show an impedance minimum.

You also have to know a speaker's real sensitivity. Often manufacturers publish exaggerated sensitivity numbers.

Insensitive speakers (roughly 85 dB or lower), where the impedance values drop below 4 ohms, and where there is a wide shift of impedance phase angles (a wider range than from -45° to +45°) are the most difficult to drive. A speaker with relatively low sensitivity (as many small bookshelves can be), that goes down to 4 ohms, but does not have a wide shift in phases angles, is probably not a difficult load for most amps or receivers. But look out for those insensitive, less than 4 ohm speakers that also go through drastic shifts in impedance phase angles. Most, but not all speaker manufacturers do not show this kind of info.

Time to stop, for now. More to come.

 

[everettT]

Bumping up your budget would be my advise as well. Revel has good sale on the M16 and has very good performance for the price.

Revel Concerta2 M16 (High Gloss Black)

Bookshelf speaker

www.crutchfield.com

Revel M16 Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Revel M16 stand-mount/bookshelf speaker. I purchased this through my company and it arrived a few days ago. Can't tell you my cost :), but retail price is US $900 (sold $450 each). As you can expect, when you pay more, you do get more as far...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Of what you have, the Polk would be my choice.

Polk Reserve R200: Spinorama and measurements (a really nice surprise!)

Well, after being disappointed by the Focal Solo6 Be, I have something better for you. Here's the new Polk Reserve R200, at $700 a pair. Behold: Say whatttt. I mean okay, the Di curves aren't the best, but look how flat that listening window is! It handily outdoes the more expensive Legend...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Swerd]

By the way these are the speakers I'm interested in and I'm actually kind of probably going to buy a couple of the ones I'm mentioning.
MA Bronze 100
Klipsch 600II
WD EVO 4.1
Polk Reserve 200
Elac Debut Ref DBR62

And now, to your list of speakers:

Monitor Audio Bronze 100
SoundStage has measured them. And so has AudioScienceReviews. Both indicate that these aren't bad speakers at all. Put them high on your list. Make an effort to hear them.

Be sure to look at the Impedance and Impedance Phase curves. And as an example of exaggerated sensitivity, Monitor Audio says these speakers have a sensitivity of 87 dB, but SoundStage says they measured 84.4 dB (averaged over the audio range of 300Hz-3kHz, on Listening Window, measured at 2.83V/1m). 84.4 dB is believable, but not 87 dB.

Klipsch 600II
Klipsch speakers are not for everyone. Many, including myself, think they are very bright sounding, to the point of sounding tinny or harsh. Others like them. So be sure which type of listener you are.

Also, be aware that Klipsch has historically been known to highly exaggerate it's sensitivity numbers. For the RP 600 II, Klipsch claims 94.5 dB, and Erin measured 86 dB. Personally, I have great trouble believing any sensitivity claim for a home speaker that's more than 90 dB.

Erin’s Audio Corner says these “are among the more neutral sounding Klipsch speakers I’ve listened to and the data shows reasonable linearity. However, there is a treble boost starting around 8kHz.”

Wharfdale EVO 4.1
AudioScienceReviews gave them a favorable review. I was surprised to read that because ASR is often highly critical.

Polk Reserve 200
AudioScienceReviews also liked these speakers. My same comments as for the EVO 4.1.

Elac Debut Ref DBR62
Again, AudioScienceReviews like these! In fact, they seemed to like the Elacs a bit better than the EVO or the Polk.

With all of these reviews, you can see reliable measurements of frequency response, impedance responses, and honest measurements of sensitivity. Comparisons among those speakers and predictions of their overall sound quality should be easier. From those you will be able to guess if they are tough to drive for an amp.

Above, I suggested looking in a slightly higher price range than $500-600. These are my two personal picks for very good sounding small bookshelf speakers. Both are sold only by Internet Direct from the manufacturers. You will not find them in any stores or online vendors such as Amazon. I've heard them and highly recommend both. Both Ascend Acoustics and Salk are highly reputable speaker makers and have been in business for quite a few years.

Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1
They have been measured by SoundStage, and look very good.

FWIW, Ascend Acoustics publishes a full set of reliably believable measurements of its speakers. Ascend's measurements look quite similar to those of SoundStage.

Salk SongSurround I
They have not been measured by SoundStage, but are also very good.

Good luck with your search!

 

[Davvy]

Bumping up your budget would be my advise as well. Revel has good sale on the M16 and has very good performance for the price.

Revel Concerta2 M16 (High Gloss Black)

Bookshelf speaker

www.crutchfield.com

Revel M16 Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Revel M16 stand-mount/bookshelf speaker. I purchased this through my company and it arrived a few days ago. Can't tell you my cost :), but retail price is US $900 (sold $450 each). As you can expect, when you pay more, you do get more as far...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Of what you have, the Polk would be my choice.

Polk Reserve R200: Spinorama and measurements (a really nice surprise!)

Well, after being disappointed by the Focal Solo6 Be, I have something better for you. Here's the new Polk Reserve R200, at $700 a pair. Behold: Say whatttt. I mean okay, the Di curves aren't the best, but look how flat that listening window is! It handily outdoes the more expensive Legend...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm definitely going to look at the Revel M16's tonight their on special right now for $346 a piece.

 

[Davvy]

If you consider spending $500-$600 on speakers and much more on amplification, then reverse the prices, you'll definitely have a better sounding system. Sometimes, it's possible to find low-priced speakers that sound really good, but it's not easy.

Mid-priced electronics usually sound just fine with better speakers but with speakers that can't do what you want, you'll never hear what you think high priced electronics should deliver. The speaker price range you're looking at is a difficult one- they usually sound good, but the lowest octave is left wanting- they almost do everything, but can't.

Speakers determine the 'sound' of the system and there's more to this than just frequency response specs- some speakers direct the sound in a narrower path, some provide better off-axis response and they need to work in the room where they'll be located. Also, this dispersion makes a difference when placing the speakers- some work well near a back wall, some don't, some sound better when you're on-axis, some sound fine when you're not in a small 'sweet spot'. One brand won't sound the same as others- call it 'personality', 'sonic signature' or whatever, a lot of factors determine the sound quality and it can take time to find the ones you prefer, partially because there's always something in the music you listen to that brings out the best and worst in a given speaker. NOTHING is perfect but if you make the decision to buy speakers, it's best to listen,- don't buy the specs.

Also, if you like a speaker that doesn't have two sets of binding posts, DO NOT reject them as your choice- those don't add a single thing to the sound.

Okay it sounds like what your saying as is others, spend more on speakers then electronics. So in my case get something like a AVR that has what I need but nothing more so in that case I've already found one for $699 and spend more on speakers like $1000, is that correct ?

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm definitely going to look at the Revel M16's tonight their on special right now for $346 a piece.

I think you have a pretty good short list. The only one I would knock off would be the Klipsch.

I would take a look at the KEF range of coaxial speakers. They measure well, and coaxial speakers have a lot of advantages, when it comes to speech reproduction and use in the AV environment. In addition it makes adding a center an easy proposition. Coaxial designs are the absolute optimal for center channels, and that way you will have a perfectly matched front three.