Why is it so hard to find a integrated amp with the 3 things I want ?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No initially I was going to get a AVR, but if I'm doing a two channel then why would I get a class D amp AVR then ?

Because AVR/AVP sound as good or better, measure as well or better.

And in 2CH, MCH AVR can be more powerful than many integrated amps.

For example, the Yamaha RX-Z11 AVR can output 387W x 2Ch 4 ohms, Yamaha RX-A3000 series can output 294W x 2Ch 4 ohms,

And AVR (like the Yamaha) have a 7-band Parametric EQ, which is much better than a “Tone Control”.

 

[Davvy]

If speakers need equalizing then they are lousy speakers, and you should not have bought them. In any event, AVRs and AVPs have equalizer functions, which are far better and more versatile than the old Baxandall tone controls.

It is clear to me that you have a lot of misconceptions and that you need to do a lot more study of system design before you spend any money, otherwise it will disappear down the drain. It is adherence to good engineering practices and skillful implementation that builds superior systems.

"a lot of misconceptions" ok big dog. Yes I'm still learning and I wouldn't buy anything really soon, which I've already said.

 

[Davvy]

Because AVR/AVP sound as good or better, measure as well or better.

And in 2CH, MCH AVR can be more powerful than many integrated amps.

For example, the Yamaha RX-Z11 AVR can output 387W x 2Ch 4 ohms, Yamaha RX-A3000 series can output 294W x 2Ch 4 ohms,

And AVR (like the Yamaha) have a 7-band Parametric EQ, which is much better than a “Tone Control”.

Thanks, maybe I should just get a AVR then, it would save me some money too.

 

[Trell]

And AVR (like the Yamaha) have a 7-band Parametric EQ, which is much better than a “Tone Control”.

Easy to access and use tone controls can be handy for some content, and I do so on occasion on my RME ADI-2 DAC FS.

 

[Swerd]

Yeah I know of it, I read so so things about it like heating up etc... I'll think about it.

Don't believe everything you read or hear on the internet. Much of it can be out-of-date info. Years ago, it might have been useful, but now continues to be passed on by people who don't know any better.

I actually listed to that YT video. It was over-generalized nonsense – an advertisement disguised as information.

You seem to be curious to get into audio, but your inexperience leads you to be easily misled. Curiosity is great, and there's nothing wrong with inexperience. It's good that you came here, asking questions.

The first thing I'd say about audio is that good sound quality comes mainly from good speakers. Unfortunately, the market is full of speakers that sound less than good. So, you have to spend some time listening to different speakers. There's no substitute for that. And you have to decide on your price range. Spending more money on speakers can definitely result in better sound, but not always. But there's no sense in listening to speakers that you simply can't afford.

Once you know what speakers you like, then its much easier to choose amplification for them. Choose an amp that has enough power to drive your speakers loud enough, without ever going into clipping. A clipping amp will not only sound poor, it can damage your speakers, seriously shortening their life. All the rest is deciding which functions, features, and price best suit your needs. Don't spend a lot of your time worrying over differences in sound quality coming from different brand names of audio electronics. Spend that time listening to different speakers.

 

[panteragstk]

I've had a ton of amps and AVRs over the years and I can say that I 100% agree with @Swerd on this. Speakers are the most important part. Then the electronics.

I've been looking for a similar AVR or Integrated amp for a system I'm putting together, but if I find something 2ch that has the feature set I want, I find the price is often a bit absurd for what I was actually getting.

When it comes to something that will handle HDMI like I want, an AVR makes a LOT more sense economically and with features too. Yes, the AVR will probably have some bloat in the way of features, but that won't stop it from sounding pretty damn good. You'd be hard pressed to beat the SQ for the money.

However, I do have one system in my office that is "separates" in the way that I have a DAC and a separate amp connected to it. They both get very good reviews on ASR so I had no issue spending the money, which was less than $200 for both. They sound excellent, but you aren't getting much in the way of inputs. If something like that would work for your use case it's easy to test and the SQ is really great for the money.

ASR might be a good place to add for getting information on some of the integrated amps you're looking at. Amir reviews a ton of stuff so there might be one that he doesn't tear apart that will work for you. Check the AVR measurements too since you're concerned with how good they can sound.

Between the information here and on ASR (audio science review) you'll have plenty to read. A lot will be opinions, but if they have science and facts behind them they're better than "this power cord will make your system sound better. Trust me." Lots of BS to wade through in audio.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks, maybe I should just get a AVR then, it would save me some money too.

I think the take away message is that it's fine either way - Integrated Amp or AVR or AVP + Amp.

If you've always had your HEART set on Integrated Amps, then it's fine (if you can find one that has all the features you want and at the price you are willing to pay).

But many of us are using MCH AVR for just 2CH Stereo Music. I currently use a Yamaha RX-A3080 (294W x 2Ch 4 ohm) and was using a Denon AVR-5308 (339W x 2Ch 4 ohms) before that. So plenty of power for 2Ch!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Easy to access and use tone controls can be handy for some content, and I do so on occasion on my RME ADI-2 DAC FS.

I believe your point is that simple analog tone control knobs are simpler to use than the AVR's EQ, which is a good point. And many people love these simple tone controls.

My point is that if the OP decides to get an AVR/AVP, he can also use these more advanced EQ's if he wants to. And while the analog tone controls are simpler, the PEQ is more advanced and could potentially produce better EQ results.

 

[dlaloum]

As an aside, many AVR's also have "tone controls" - on their remote, or on their Smartphone app control - what they tend not to have, is the physical knobs on the front panel.

eg: The current Integra/Pioneer/Onkyo's have treble, bass, and "vocal" buttons on the remote.

As others have said - the biggest impact on your sound will be your speakers and the room (and the speakers placement IN the room)...

Once you have chosen your speakers, you can then choose your Integrated... (a receiver IS an Integrated amp! - just more stuff is integrated! )

In my case, the current AVR I chose did not have sufficient power/current to properly drive my speakers, so I paired it with external power amps.... the AVR it replaced was higher powered and handed the speakers fine. (hence I chose an AVR with pre-outs so I could run it as a sophisticated Pre-amp, with my power amps)

The other thing that many AVR's bring to the table that typical integrated's don't - is proper Room & Speaker DSP correction.
Don't underestimate the value of good room/speaker EQ it is a paradigm shift, and substantially improves the results achievable in our typically imperfect living arrangements!

Good AVR's have good DAC's, good preamps, and a wealth of tuning options - they are the complete opposite of minimalist analogue preamps/integrateds.

But if you want to move into today's world of bluetooth, wifi, HDMI etc... then minimalist analogue is not going to get you there!

 

[Davvy]

That was a lot of good information in the last few posts, especially the bit about worrying more about speakers than what's driving them and a good avr will sound as practically as good as ingrated amp of about equal value and not worrying about what class amps are.

So anyway I'm interested in these avrs.

Onkyo TX RN6100 $799
Second choice, Denon x2800h $1199

The Onkyo have tone controls right on the remote, but I checked the Denon's manual it has them too, but I'm assuming it's separate from adyssey and I'll be able to access them easily otherwise I won't get the Denon.

By the way if I want a certain sound of signature should that only be sought through the speakers and not do AVR right, I think someone said already.

I was gonna ask which one do you think would sound better the Denon or the onkyo and do they have similar sound signatures like if one is more neutral than the other, but I understand that might be a really difficult question to answer. I just want something easy to use, which one would you choose or suggest.

By the way these are the speakers I'm interested in and I'm actually kind of probably going to buy a couple of the ones I'm mentioning. After watching so many videos of people auditioning speakers I kind of have the itch to have multiple pairs of speakers also.

MA Bronze 100
Klipsch 600II
WD EVO 4.1
Polk Reserve 200
Elac Debut Ref DBR62

So as you can see my price range for speakers is about between $500 and $600 give or take.

By the way what's the rule of thumb if I buy $500-$600 speaker's approximately how much should I spend on a AVR ?

Thanks

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe the better question is why do you want to cheap out on speakers? Up to 3k for an amp to power those? What's the point?

 

[Davvy]

Maybe the better question is why do you want to cheap out on speakers? Up to 3k for an amp to power those? What's the point?

I'm no longer gonna spend that kind of money read my last post #30.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm no longer gonna spend that kind of money read my last post #30.

I'm still trying to get you to spend more on speakers....

 

[Davvy]

I'm still trying to get you to spend more on speakers....

LOL, I think $500-600 is enough.

 

[oldloder]

Have you looked at the Marantz NR1200? I believe it checks all of your essential needs boxes for $800. As to audiophile quality from connecting wirelessly to the receiver it has bluetooth but I cannot vouch for it's quality. That said for ~$70 you can get the Topping BC3 and connect it to an optical digital input and have near state of the art wireless matching or exceeding CD quality resolution. I have used several Marantz slim AVR receivers - NR1402, NR1403, and the NR1606 and fed them with standalone DAC's all of which use the LDAC bluetooth codecs and the limiting factor will undoubtedly become the quality of your speakers as has been suggested.

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL, I think $500-600 is enough.

Then don't spend as much on the amp would be my starting point. Really, the speakers are key. Not the electronics beyond what you need them to do.

 

[oldloder]

I should say that the NR1200 will likely have all the quality you seek with the possible exception of wireless via Bluetooth, etc. With an NR1200 or any other comparable AVR then you could experiment with auditioning higher quality speakers if you'd like to take the next step up ... it would be an ear opening experience. If you are open to assembling a kit or have interest or capability in carpentry there are many diy kits for between $500 - $600 that would be comparable to store bought speakers that could costs thousands at a store.

 

[TLS Guy]

LOL, I think $500-600 is enough.

That is nowhere near enough. You can not get decent speakers for that money, even if you build them yourself. You can not even buy decent drivers for that money, before you even build a box and build a crossover. You have your priorities backwards. Speaker quality is totally dominant in the sound of a system.

 

[Trell]

The Onkyo have tone controls right on the remote, but I checked the Denon's manual it has them too, but I'm assuming it's separate from adyssey and I'll be able to access them easily otherwise I won't get the Denon

On my Denon 2015 model AVR X4200W the tone controls are not enabled if DynamicEQ is on.

 

[dlaloum]

As a rule of thumb - I would allocate a larger budget to speakers than to AVR....

Roughly speaking my speakers cost about 2x what my AVR did

In terms of getting optimal sound - there are aspects of the speakers that are more or less fixed - dispersion pattern, transparency, also the specific type of colourations (distortion) that a speaker imposes.

For example - Electrostatics are very very transparent and low distortion - but (depending on design) - they can be SPL limited, as well as bass limited, and some designs have a very small optimal listening space (narrow MLP) - but some people will happily live with their limitations in exchange for the perfection of their transparency and low distortion (something that very few if any dynamic speakers can match)

Alternatively some people will happily sacrifice some transparency in exchange for thunderous bass, and kick drums that can really give you that "thump in the chest" feeling .... stats won't do that!

Movies have loads of thunderous bass effects - and that can be achieved with good subs, or with good full range speakers - but if you want excellent high quality timbre, in addition to bass sound pressure levels for effects - that can get expensive too...

You need to know what compromises you are willing to make - and what compromises you AREN'T willing to make (unless price is no object - we all have to make our compromises!)

Once you have chosen your speakers - this will then drive what the AVR you choose will need...

If you have speakers with high SPL efficiency (high output per Watt) then you will be able to live with a less powerful AVR.... if they are lower SPL efficiency you will need a more powerful AVR.
If the speakers have an 8ohm impedance - they will work well with almost any AVR, if they have a 4ohm impedance - then you will need to carefully choose the AVR, as they will need more current (and it can be hard to determine which AVR's will work for speakers that require high current) - for 4 ohm speakers you may need to investigate further and find an impedance/frequency chart to help with determining what kind of amp they might need.

Some speakers (including my own mains - Anthony Gallo Reference 3.2) - just don't suit most AVR's - my speakers drop down to 1.6ohm (even though the specifications state 4 ohm)- and that means that most AVR's struggle to provide the current required.... which is why I run external power amps with them.
My previous speakers (Quad ESL63 & Quad ESL989) worked just fine with the AVR, and didn't require an external amp to get the best from them.

So pick the speakers first - and then you look around for an amp to suit them.
The speakers will have the biggest impact on the overall "sound" or "voicing" of the system.

The Voicing of the system can of course be tuned, if you have a sufficiently sophisticated AVR (most AVR's have some sort of Speaker/Room EQ software built in... this gets better as you go up the range with AVR's) - but best results are achieved by starting off with speakers that are voiced as you like them, and then using the AVR for final fine tuning - not by getting speakers that don't suit you then trying to get EQ to completely change their sound.

(I had to sacrifice my Quad electrostatics on the altar of domestic harmony - my Gallo speakers were chosen to be suitable for domestic harmony - but also because they sound very "electristatic like" - very transparent)