Why is it so hard to find a integrated amp with the 3 things I want ?

[lovinthehd]

Oh, I agree. I was just kidding about the SINAD.

I think Power Output is a lot more important than THD+N because all the THD+N levels are so low and inaudible.

Plus at higher levels, i.e. at high amp output/high volume of speakers, you're not likely to "hear" any differences in any case....power is more important at the higher levels than distortion.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You make more a fuss over SINAD than many, tho

True, but I was REACTING to all the fuss. So just making a fuss by saying, "Hey, it's not a big deal!"

But I guess by reacting to all the fuss, I added more fuss, which is the point?

 

[lovinthehd]

Cause it's an easy number to focus on. Especially for those that don't really understand why the numbers are important.

And that ASR ranks that way?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Plus at higher levels, i.e. at high amp output/high volume of speakers, you're not likely to "hear" any differences in any case....power is more important at the higher levels than distortion.

If I could make just one point about all the fuss , a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, we've always talked about THD+N. But I do not remember people ever making any fuss over THD+N!

We might say that 0.009% THD+N is great and 0.005% is also great and 0.001% is also great. But it felt like no big deal or fuss back then.

Now it's like, "Ooh, THD+N of 0.0001% is so awesome and just gotta have it for $3,000 even though my AVR can actually output more power into 4 ohms x 2Ch!"

There, I guess I just added even more FUSS to it.

 

[panteragstk]

And that ASR ranks that way?

I guess. I know there is more to things than a single number, but if it becomes a standard of sorts it would allow us to easily compare articles and reviews from different sites.

If everyone had the same standard of measurements, it'd help us all out. Granted, that's only so useful considering that a SIGNIFICANT amount of amps that don't do well according to Amir, probably don't have any audible issues.

 

[lovinthehd]

If I could make just one point about all the fuss , a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, we've always talked about THD+N. But I do not remember people ever making any fuss over THD+N!

We might say that 0.009% THD+N is great and 0.005% is also great and 0.001% is also great. But it felt like no big deal or fuss back then.

Now it's like, "Ooh, THD+N of 0.0001% is so awesome and just gotta have it for $3,000 even though my AVR can actually output more power into 4 ohms x 2Ch!"

There, I guess I just added even more FUSS to it.

Fuss away! I don't remember lots of discussion about THD or THD+N particularly, altho I do remember a few guys saying they can hear the difference between .01 and .001 % of either

 

[lovinthehd]

I guess. I know there is more to things than a single number, but if it becomes a standard of sorts it would allow us to easily compare articles and reviews from different sites.

If everyone had the same standard of measurements, it'd help us all out. Granted, that's only so useful considering that a SIGNIFICANT amount of amps that don't do well according to Amir, probably don't have any audible issues.

All ya need to compare SINAD to THD+N is math skills (or a calculator). When Amir says they don't do well it is simply the level of engineering he's commenting on, not the audible part, but I think many people get that wrong. He mentions that fairly frequently.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And that ASR ranks that way?

Because everyone knows that the higher the SINAD, the more sweet, chocolatey and airy the sound is. Even the bass has more slam and tightness and speed when the AVR/AVP/Amp has the highest SINAD.

 

[lovinthehd]

Because everyone knows that the higher the SINAD, the more sweet, chocolatey and airy the sound is. Even the bass has more slam and tightness and speed when the amp has the highest SINAD.

Then again that makes no more sense than ranking things by THD+N for audible issues....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When Amir says they don't do well it is simply the level of engineering he's commenting on, not the audible part, but I think many people get that wrong. He mentions that fairly frequently.

That might be one point of debate - saying that lower THD+N = better engineering.

But what does better engineering correlate with? Better sound quality? Better reliability?

There are $500 AVR's from 20-30 years ago that seem to be more reliable than many newer $2K AVRs that have much lower THD+N measurements.

 

[lovinthehd]

That might be one point of debate - saying that lower THD+N = better engineering.

But what does better engineering correlate with? Better sound quality? Better reliability?

There are $500 AVR's from 20-30 years ago that seem to be more reliable than many newer $2K AVRs that have much lower THD+N measurements.

Better engineering of the signal path I'd say. Better sound quality or reliability would be other things....and judging one era's consumer electronics to another can be difficult in several ways...build quality is one thing that is very hard to review unless you wait 20 years.

 

[Trell]

All ya need to compare SINAD to THD+N is math skills (or a calculator). When Amir says they don't do well it is simply the level of engineering he's commenting on, not the audible part, but I think many people get that wrong. He mentions that fairly frequently.

And Amir has a several measurements that are not just one single number for a single frequency in his reviews. It’s the totality of those measurements that are useful.

 

[lovinthehd]

And Amir has a several measurements that are not just one single number for a single frequency in his reviews. It’s the totality of those measurements that are useful.

Of course, but some people seem to focus on the charts based on SINAD too much....

 

[dlaloum]

@PENG and I have talked about this 2-ohm topic.

I think the Denon 3000 AVR series tested down to 2-ohm at ~ 170W and passed, while many external “Amps” failed this test. So just because it is an external amp doesn’t mean it will be more stable than an AVR or another amp like ATI.

If you own Maggies, I think The Audio Critic tested the ATI 60WPC amp down to 1-ohm using the power cube test.

Bottom line - just start at low volume and increase from there.

Also, other than some Maggies, what other speakers actually go down to 2-ohms and below?

Several Electrostatic speakers come to mind (Acoustat)

The Gallo speakers with the CDT tweeter (my own ones drops down to 1.65 ohm on the tweeter)

It is quite common for various full range speakers to drop down to 3 ohm in the bass - especially if they use multiple paralleled woofers... would not be surprising if some of them dipped lower. - but also at crossover points the crossover can result in an impedance dip (or rise) depending on its design.

In terms of "starting at low volumes" - that works fine if your objective is not letting out the "Magic Smoke" - some vintage designs with less protective circuits than is currently the norm, would litterally go up in flames on a low impedance load!

But as I have observer before - many amps that are not designed for low impedance loads, will audibly deteriorate into low impedance loads, even though they achieve quite reasonable SPL's.

My 100W AVR sounded congested, lost much of its midrange clarity, and soundstaging/imaging collapsed... this didn't happen with either the Quad 606 or Crown XLS2500 - both of which are indeed rated for 2 ohm - all testing was done at normal listening level = 72db - so lack of power was not the issue.

I suspect that many amps (including my AVR) get unstable into low impedances, and start throwing out various types of distortion - (no measurements as I have not tools for that)

 

[lovinthehd]

Several Electrostatic speakers come to mind (Acoustat)

The Gallo speakers with the CDT tweeter (my own ones drops down to 1.65 ohm on the tweeter)

It is quite common for various full range speakers to drop down to 3 ohm in the bass - especially if they use multiple paralleled woofers... would not be surprising if some of them dipped lower. - but also at crossover points the crossover can result in an impedance dip (or rise) depending on its design.

In terms of "starting at low volumes" - that works fine if your objective is not letting out the "Magic Smoke" - some vintage designs with less protective circuits than is currently the norm, would litterally go up in flames on a low impedance load!

But as I have observer before - many amps that are not designed for low impedance loads, will audibly deteriorate into low impedance loads, even though they achieve quite reasonable SPL's.

My 100W AVR sounded congested, lost much of its midrange clarity, and soundstaging/imaging collapsed... this didn't happen with either the Quad 606 or Crown XLS2500 - both of which are indeed rated for 2 ohm - all testing was done at normal listening level = 72db - so lack of power was not the issue.

I suspect that many amps (including my AVR) get unstable into low impedances, and start throwing out various types of distortion - (no measurements as I have not tools for that)

If the avr sounded that bad, why didn't you simply return it?

 

[Davvy]

By the way can I keep bookshelf speakers in my unheated garage during cold winter months. I live in Ohio and it does get down to the 10f degree range sometimes not often. Would that cause in any damage to the speakers ?

 

[lovinthehd]

By the way can I keep bookshelf speakers in my unheated garage during cold winter months. I live in Ohio and it does get down to the 10f degree range sometimes not often. Would that cause in any damage to the speakers ?

I suppose there are limits, and it doesn't get quite as cold here as your place, but did get down into the high 20s here lately and once in a while will hit the teens....never noticed my outdoor speakers having any particular issues. My workshop is unheated and may be slightly warmer (converted garage), but have had speakers of all types in there for years without issue. Does make me wonder if there are meaningful issues with lower temps for speaker components and whether it's an operating temperature or storage temperature difference....

 

[Davvy]

I suppose there are limits, and it doesn't get quite as cold here as your place, but did get down into the high 20s here lately and once in a while will hit the teens....never noticed my outdoor speakers having any particular issues. My workshop is unheated and may be slightly warmer (converted garage), but have had speakers of all types in there for years without issue. Does make me wonder if there are meaningful issues with lower temps for speaker components and whether it's an operating temperature or storage temperature difference....

I guess I should have been more clear, I won't be using them in the garage, they will stay in their retail box. I want to keep them in the garage for storage only.

 

[lovinthehd]

I guess I should have been more clear, I won't be using them in the garage, they will stay in their retail box. I want to keep them in the garage for storage only.

I'd worry much less about storage rather than use Transport could be an issue otherwise Hopefully someone with a better technical idea of the "dangers" can help out....

 

[dlaloum]

If the avr sounded that bad, why didn't you simply return it?

It didn't sound that bad through the pre-outs...

In fact with my other amps in the circuit, the setup sounded identical to my previous AVR ... as it should when playing "direct" (no EQ adjustments etc...)

None of the current crop of (affordable) AVR's have any indication that they would effectively handle low impedance speakers (which would require a high current power supply - and none of them have that!).

I have some hope that the flagship Onkyo/Integra/Pioneers due to come out early next year might be promising...