Why didn't they choose an AVR?

[highfigh]

Great point, they typically measured THD up to 20,000 Hz. As indicated in the review RichB linked, even at that relatively low slew rate, the AHB2 would have a bandwidth of 100 kHz. I have never seen anyone measured THD at even 25 kHz. Of course slew rate is measured as dv/dt it is stated as volt per second afterall, obviously dv/dt (v=velocity) for a car is acceleration. That why the reviewer also mentioned the rated power. At 200 W into 8 ohms, the AHB2's output voltage would have to be higher, so at the same dv/dt, it would take longer to reach the peak voltage required for the particular load it is driving.

THD is measured wide-band, but the upper frequency distortion isn't audible unless you're a bat, or something.

I already mentioned the derivative for acceleration, but it doesn't only apply to a car.

 

[Verdinut]

A lot of the performance in a tube amp depends on the output transformer(s). They do just fine at high frequencies with transformers that are capable- Allen Bradley used McIntosh MC-75 amps for data transfer but I don't know what the baud rate was- I suspect it was pretty low, since this amp came out in 1961.

Talking about McIntosh amps, an old friend of mine who managed two hi-fi shops before retiring, told me about a situation with Tannoy Dual-Concentric Monitor speakers which they were presenting in one store. In the early 1970s, they had connected the Tannoys to a McIntosh SS amp which, of course was using an autoformer in the output stage. That McIntosh amp had a low damping factor of only 13 and the Tannoys sounded lifeless and muddy, but when they switched the amp to the newly released Sony TA-3200F, the speakers sounded as they were meant to.

 

[PENG]

I think most audiophiles equate slew rate to the treble and damping factor to the bass, right?

More or less..

 

[PENG]

THD is measured wide-band, but the upper frequency distortion isn't audible unless you're a bat, or something.

I already mentioned the derivative for acceleration, but it doesn't only apply to a car.

You did!!

 

[PENG]

Talking about McIntosh amps, an old friend of mine who managed two hi-fi shops before retiring, told me about a situation with Tannoy Dual-Concentric Monitor speakers which they were presenting in one store. In the early 1970s, they had connected the Tannoys to a McIntosh SS amp which, of course was using an autoformer in the output stage. That McIntosh amp had a low damping factor of only 8 and the Tannoys sounded lifeless and muddy, but when they switched the amp to the newly released Sony TA-3200F, the speakers sounded as they were meant to.

8 is indeed low, which Mc would go that low?

 

[TechHDS]

More or less..

There's that Factor thing again more or less.
Could swear I read somewhere that we didn't mention damping factor in here. . But just what I thought the slew rate, is connected to Dampening Factor!. Something has to control the movement of the drivers.

ALL I know, is I am sure glad it wasn't me this time that brought up that Damping Factor thing.
Sure hope you guys got all ya fines paid up? Cause that Sherrif in here, AKA 'Loveinthehd' sure goes by the book. Just duct if he comes after you guys, cause that book is thick sure wouldn't want y'all to get hit on the head with it.

 

[PENG]

There's that Factor thing again more or less.
Could swear I read somewhere that we didn't mention damping factor in here. . But just what I thought the slew rate, is connected to Dampening Factor!. Something has to control the movement of the drivers.

ALL I know, is I am sure glad it wasn't me this time that brought up that Damping Factor thing.
Sure hope you guys got all ya fines paid up? Cause that Sherrif in here, AKA 'Loveinthehd' sure goes by the book. Just duct if he comes after you guys, cause that book is thick sure wouldn't want y'all to get hit on the head with it.

Two different issues, unrelated.

 

[TechHDS]

Two different issues, unrelated.

@PENG, was just messing around with you guys. At my age I get the tone controls mixed up with the bass and treble sometimes. On my good days with the ringing in my hearing when it act's up I couldn't tell you if the THD or the SNL is , aggravating my hearing. Can't tell you over the last 10 year's how many tweeters I've changed out and found out they weren't even bad.

 

[highfigh]

@PENG, was just messing around with you guys. At my age I get the tone controls mixed up with the bass and treble sometimes. On my good days with the ringing in my hearing when it act's up I couldn't tell you if the THD or the SNL is , aggravating my hearing. Can't tell you over the last 10 year's how many tweeters I've changed out and found out they weren't even bad.

What does Saturday Night Live have to do with this discussion?

 

[highfigh]

Talking about McIntosh amps, an old friend of mine who managed two hi-fi shops before retiring, told me about a situation with Tannoy Dual-Concentric Monitor speakers which they were presenting in one store. In the early 1970s, they had connected the Tannoys to a McIntosh SS amp which, of course was using an autoformer in the output stage. That McIntosh amp had a low damping factor of only 8 and the Tannoys sounded lifeless and muddy, but when they switched the amp to the newly released Sony TA-3200F, the speakers sounded as they were meant to.

The 3200F is a beast! Not an exciting amp to look at, but it was definitely capable of driving speakers without a problem. We had one connected to a pair of Altec 19 speakers, fed by a Sony TA-8450 preamp, a Sony PS-X7 or Empire 698 turntable with one of several cartridges (often, a Micro-Acoustics 2002e, QDC-1 or an Empire 2000Z) and if we felt like moving things, a Sony EL-7 Elcasette.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Could swear I read somewhere that we didn't mention damping factor in here. . But just what I thought the slew rate, is connected to Dampening Factor!. Something has to control the movement of the drivers.

ALL I know, is I am sure glad it wasn't me this time that brought up that Damping Factor thing.
Sure hope you guys got all ya fines paid up? Cause that Sherrif in here, AKA 'Loveinthehd' sure goes by the book. Just duct if he comes after you guys, cause that book is thick sure wouldn't want y'all to get hit on the head with it.

Well, practically all these specs (SNR, THD, FR, Crosstalk, Slew Rate, Damping Factor) are WNL (within normal limits) and inaudible every time they measure them.

We see Sound & Vision Magazine say that dreaded phrase too often - WNL - and they don’t even show us the measurements, which I hate.

I know they are all WNL and inaudible, but I still want to see the numbers anyway.

So usually we don’t debate these specs because we realize they are inaudible.

But for the audiophiles who believe these specs make all amps significantly different sounding (even when Level-matched and played WNL), all these specs are fair game - Damping Factor and Slew Rate are equally important as SNR and THD.

If they think that having a SNR of 130dB and THD of 0.00001% make the amps sound better than the rest, then they need to be told that having a Slew Rate of 16V/uS is pathetic (even a $200 HK Receiver has 2.5 times better Slew rate) and Damping Factor of 350 is absolutely nothing to brag about.

 

[TechHDS]

Well, practically all these specs (SNR, THD, FR, Crosstalk, Slew Rate, Damping Factor) are WNL (within normal limits) and inaudible every time they measure them.

We see Sound & Vision Magazine say that dread phrase too often - WNL - and they don’t even show us the measurements, which I hate.

I know they are all WNL and inaudible, but I still want to see the numbers anyway.

So usually we don’t debate these specs because we realize they are inaudible.

But for the audiophiles who believe these specs make all amps significantly different sounding (even when Level-matched and played WNL), all these specs are fair game - Damping Factor and Slew Rate are equally important as SNR and THD.

If they think that having a SNR of 130dB and THD of 0.00001% make the amps sound better than the rest, then they need to be told that having a Slew Rate of 16V/uS is pathetic (even a $200 HK Receiver has 2.5 times better Slew rate) and Damping Factor of 350 is absolutely nothing to brag about.

I had HK stereo back in the day, I believe it was their 3490? 120 × 2. loved the way it sounded. I called HK, talked with one of their Tech's about that 3490 he said, and I quote, we put a lot of research into the preamp and amp in that unit. He went we wanted it to sound ' analog' as much as possible. I went tube like sound? cause the unit has a nice 'warm' like sound to it. Used some analogies to describe the conversation is all. Thanks ADTG for posting up, but yeah starting to understand a lil more each time I hang out with you ole timers. Make since though.

 

[Verdinut]

The 3200F is a beast! Not an exciting amp to look at, but it was definitely capable of driving speakers without a problem. We had one connected to a pair of Altec 19 speakers, fed by a Sony TA-8450 preamp, a Sony PS-X7 or Empire 698 turntable with one of several cartridges (often, a Micro-Acoustics 2002e, QDC-1 or an Empire 2000Z) and if we felt like moving things, a Sony EL-7 Elcasette.

Absolutely! I owned one TA-3200F for over 40 years years and recently sold it. The only service it required was the replacement of the pilot lamp.

 

[Verdinut]

8 is indeed low, which Mc would go that low?

It was the MC2505. My mistake as it was 13, still a very low figure for the 15 ohm Tannoy. British speakers were using 15 rather than 16 ohms for their transducer impedances then.

http://manualzz.com/doc/1252012/mcintosh-mc2505-specifications

 

[Verdinut]

Mc used to do clinics at Hi-Fi dealer shops in the early 1970s. They offered to test other manufacturers products as well for comparison. I was told this by a Hi-Fi shop owner:
They were using a Variac in their testing. What they were doing is that, when they were to test a different amplifier from their own, they would fix the incoming voltage to 95 volts. Of course, the other brand product would not meet its specs!

 

[M Code]

I had HK stereo back in the day, I believe it was their 3490? 120 × 2. loved the way it sounded. I called HK, talked with one of their Tech's about that 3490 he said, and I quote, we put a lot of research into the preamp and amp in that unit. He went we wanted it to sound ' analog' as much as possible. I went tube like sound? cause the unit has a nice 'warm' like sound to it. Used some analogies to describe the conversation is all. Thanks ADTG for posting up, but yeah starting to understand a lil more each time I hang out with you ole timers. Make since though.

Lets kleer the air about the HK and 3490..
From the mid-70s up to 2010, the amplifier stages of HK receivers (stereo & multi-channel) were designed by Richie Miller. Over the years, HK products received very positive feedback especially about their sonic performance all using amplifier topologies designed by Richie. Richie would design/build the amplifier as a prototype and then the design was taken to the Far East to be integrated into the final product. Through each step of development proto, off-tool 1, off-tool 2 and finally mass production Richie would evealute and tweak the amplifier/power supply stages for best performance. Probably his most famous design was the HK Citation series, highly rated even today. We knew Richie very well and worked closely with him for >12 years, also I should mention I was the original product manager for the 3490 as well. However in 2010, after Dr.Harman retired the entire HK design team was disbanded, and the HK products were sourced/designed in China. Note that the later Harman stereo receivers like the 3770, but compare certain specs like weight vs the 3490, 3490 weighed 27 lbs 3770 weighed 13 lbs. Basically today Harman International now owned by Samsung has moved away from audio/hifi components to push blue-tooth speakers and 12V OE auto-infotainment systems. Now no more AVRs except for Lexicon some rebadged Arcam models..

But as Bob Dylan says.. "the times are achangin"..

Just my $0.02...

 

[TechHDS]

Lets kleer the air about the HK and 3490..
From the mid-70s up to 2010, the amplifier stages of HK receivers (stereo & multi-channel) were designed by Richie Miller. Over the years, HK products received very positive feedback especially about their sonic performance all using amplifier topologies designed by Richie. Richie would design/build the amplifier as a prototype and then the design was taken to the Far East to be integrated into the final product. Through each step of development proto, off-tool 1, off-tool 2 and finally mass production Richie would evealute and tweak the amplifier/power supply stages for best performance. Probably his most famous design was the HK Citation series, highly rated even today. We knew Richie very well and worked closely with him for >12 years, also I should mention I was the original product manager for the 3490 as well. However in 2010, after Dr.Harman retired the entire HK design team was disbanded, and the HK products were sourced/designed in China. Note that the later Harman stereo receivers like the 3770, but compare certain specs like weight vs the 3490, 3490 weighed 27 lbs 3770 weighed 13 lbs. Basically today Harman International now owned by Samsung has moved away from audio/hifi components to push blue-tooth speakers and 12V OE auto-infotainment systems. Now no more AVRs except for Lexicon some rebadged Arcam models..

But as Bob Dylan says.. "the times are achangin"..

Just my $0.02...

M Code, thanks, the 3490 I had was before 2010. Was a very solid unit, it's refreshing to get first-hand knowledge from you guys in here. That unit had no problem at all handling 4 Ohm speaker's at least the ones I was using with it. I made the jump to HK 3600 AVR and it to performed well untill the HDMI went out. Sad that HK went by the wayside.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Basically today Harman International now owned by Samsung has moved away from audio/hifi components to push blue-tooth speakers and 12V OE auto-infotainment systems. Now no more AVRs except for Lexicon some rebadged Arcam models..

So no more HK AVR for now?

Only Lexicon has AVR models?

And Arcam AVR are rebadged Lexicon AVR?

 

[M Code]

So no more HK AVR for now?

No more, they are still selling out 3 year old refurbs..

Only Lexicon has AVR models?
And Arcam AVR are rebadged Lexicon AVR?

Yup, Harman bought them last year (July). Arcam's official name is A&R Cambridge Ltd. They showed some rebadged Arcams as Lexicon @ CEDIA and CES 2018.

Here is a link to the subject purchase..
http://www.audioholics.com/news/britains-arcam-acquired-by-harman-international-and-samsung

Just my $0.02...

 

[M Code]

1 more follow-up note..
Arcam was actually owned by Jam Industries in Canada, but Jam has been the Canadian distributor for Harman International for the last 15 years..

Just my $0.02...