Why didn't they choose an AVR?

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I mentioned the output voltage/bandwidth factor in my post#153. No idea what took him so long to repeat the same as though it's some new discoveries. The math's simple and straightforward. I wasn't going to post neither just could resist.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
It's actually been shown people can't even tell the difference between midrange drivers when they've both been EQ'd as long as both are within their mechanical and electrical limits. I suspect this would apply to nearly all aspects of audio. People vastly overestimate their ability to hear things.

Amps aren't even up for debate anymore. It's the speakers that need to be put to the test now.

I suspect our abilities there are far weaker than we anticipate too. I'm hopeful we'll get more studies on the subject.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.... People vastly overestimate their ability to hear things....

I suspect our abilities there are far weaker than we anticipate too. I'm hopeful we'll get more studies on the subject.
How true. Some just cannot accept this for whatever reason.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
There have been cases like the Pioneer SC-07 that measured and was reviewed well yet had trouble dealing with 4 Ohm loads. What does that have to do with DSP'ed midranges?

I have actually heard the AHB2 in my system and it sounded damn good. It has the cleanest first watt of anything I have seen measured. The ATI AT522NC is close, and the AT6000 may be between the two. Is that important? Maybe, maybe not.

The AHB2 is expensive, so I'll probably get an ATI AT522NC.
Whatever I buy, I'll try it on my main system.
Sulu says: Oh my!

- Rich
 
E

<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
The Benchmark amp slew rate measurement of "16V/uS" came from AVMentor.

http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2016/benchmark_dac2hgc_ahb2_2.shtml
Yes I'm aware of the article. That's exactly the one I was referring to where John Siau pointed out to me that there was a misprint and discrepancy.

The other slew rate numbers from other manufacturers came from their websites or other publications.

I didn't make up some numbers.
Yes I'm aware that those are manufacturers specs. What you're not aware of is that once again you are comparing apples and oranges. Those amps all have different wattage/voltage ratings so your comparisons are meaningless.

The ATI numbers are interesting though, it seems like they're saying that the bandwidth of their amps decreases as they get more powerful?

BTW, higher slew rate is not necessarily better. It can bring it's own set of problems. Trust me, I have a rare 160 watt amp with a 260 V/uS slew rate (talk about bandwidth!) and many of it's limited production siblings never made it due to oscillation issues. Luckily, mine is stable. ;)

So what is the slew rate measurement of the Benchmark amp since they didn't list that info on their website or manual ?
Since you asked, to quote what John Siau told me "The 16V/us number was also measured 0% to 100%. The actual slew rate is somewhat higher. The slew rate is exactly what would be expected from a 100W with a 200 kHz bandwidth"

If that's still not clear enough, look at the Nomograph I posted.

He was on both the Fleets enema and the Golytely. :D
Finally, an area where you are a SME! :D If I needed an enema I'd definitely ask you- but I wouldn't ask you about amps, that's for sure...

I mentioned the output voltage/bandwidth factor in my post#153. No idea what took him so long to repeat the same as though it's some new discoveries. The math's simple and straightforward. I wasn't going to post neither just could resist.
Kudos to you...Yes, you did touch on that in post #153 (I didn't miss it and I would've mentioned it in my post if I thought you'd be so miffed) but obviously it wasn't clear enough for some which is why I posted.

In post #171 ACDTG still says "...then they need to be told that having a Slew Rate of 16V/uS is pathetic (even a $200 HK Receiver has 2.5 times better Slew rate)" ...and if you're still not 100% sure he's confused - even after my last post (#218), just read post #220 again. He still doesn't get it.o_O

Why don't you directly call out bald faced inaccuracies and misinformation posted by high post count (supposedly knowledgeable) members here?

This is not acceptable for a forum like AH.
 
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
My brother bought a Techniques receiver with a sticker claiming 0.0001% distortion. It sounded like crap driving his JBL L105's. Then he bought a Phase Linear 300 WPC monters. Much better :)

One day, I was upstairs and heard a tremendous hum and jumped off the couch. He had removed the phone in connection with the amp powered on. The woofer was fused in its extended position :p

- Rich
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
BTW, higher slew rate is not necessarily better.
Ah, so when your amp has a slew rate of 16 V/uS per 100WPC, it's not necessarily bad.

But when your amp has a SNR of 120dB, it's necessarily much better than other amps even though all these SNR are INAUDIBLE?

If we are just talking about numbers, then the slew rate of 16 V/uS per 100WPC amp is low when compared to a slew rate of 40 V/uS per 70WPC $200 amp.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
In post #171 ACDTG still says "...then they need to be told that having a Slew Rate of 16V/uS is pathetic (even a $200 HK Receiver has 2.5 times better Slew rate)" ...and if you're still not 100% sure he's confused - even after my last post (#218), just read post #220 again. He still doesn't get it.o_O

Why don't you directly call out bald faced inaccuracies and misinformation posted by high post count (supposedly knowledgeable) members here?

This is not acceptable for a forum like AH.
I don't call people out on every single technical inaccuracies for a variety of reasons, may be I am wrong but to me this is just a hobby forum so we should not be too serious all the time. By the same token I was never "miffed" by anyone expressing opinions as long as they don't present their opinions as facts, and only then I would call them out (only if I happen to have the facts on my side).

It is no surprise that many people, mostly audiophiles especially those who read and believe professional reviews. Like THD+N, do I think RichB could be influenced by the specs between 0.0003% and 0.001%? Of course I do, and I know he's okay with what I am saying now as I just know him (electronically) well enough. So absolutely, and I stated that in my other previous posts that 16 V/uS is more than enough from bandwidth stand point for 100 W output, but then like the THD+N 0.0003% vs 0.001%, or frequency response 10-23,000 Hz versus 5-50,000 Hz +/- 0.5 dB, we shouldn't be surprised when people prefer slew rate to be higher even for 100 W amps.

To clarify a point (for ADTG I guess), and I am sure you know this already since you now have obviously done your research, that since slew rate is a rate of change, i.e. dV/dt, it is not meaningless technically speaking in theory. It is pointless in practice, but only if one takes the same view on the THD+N and Freq response examples I mentioned. Slew rate of 32 V/uS still means the voltage will increase by 32 V per microseconds regardless of the output voltage. Everything else being equal, at 100 W, or even 300 W output, I have no doubt 16 V or 32 V/uS would not make any "audible" difference to humans, but then when it comes to technical specs difference versus discernible difference by humans, let's not pick and choose at what point a specification becomes meaningless. In fact, @Verdinut and I both have found out recently that even a low cost pro amp can in fact sound totally transparent to us mortal human beings. I am not totally surprised, as @Isiberian post#225 summed it up very well, so I don't need to elaborate.

On last point, I am not sure if you always did it before posting, but you always have yourself covered by at least "Googleable" facts in your follow up posts. For that, I do enjoy reading your posts and would engaged in discussions that involved technical facts. I just hope we can all be less antagonizing in the way we respond to posts, and try harder to more clearly separate subjective opinions from facts and vice versa.
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
What does that have to do with DSP'ed midranges?
The point is it's silly to think that you can actually hear differences in amps when people can't even hear differences between midrange drivers which have real measurable FR differences in their response.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I have to agree. Another point to add, the KEF reference 201/2 and the Revel Ultima Salon 2 have the flattest FR I have ever seen, yet still quite ugly compared that to that of any good class AB amps. Below are the prettiest plots one can measure from any speakers, in an anechoic chamber. With any room mode factored in, all bets are off. Even then, if you simply move a couple inches, they should sound much more different than that between amps with 16 vs 32 vs 60 V/uS and/or 0.0001% vs 0.05% THD+N or whatever specs that turn people on.

Almost forgot, that's just FR, their distortions are also much higher, though the KEF's 201/2 is among the lowest I have seen, lower than that of the Salon2, but still much higher compared to amp's.




 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hate to remind ADTG, iirc he had both at one time and got rid of them for the RBHs, that's crazy if you ask me.:D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Hate to remind ADTG, iirc he had both at one time and got rid of them for the RBHs, that's crazy if you ask me.:D
ADTG likes his bass just so. That wasn't happening with the Revels or the KEFs.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
my condolences ...........
I didn't go out of my way to get it. It fell in my lap for the price of $0. It's a Denon 3805 from sometime over a decade ago. I typically use the Direct mode. I have other integrated and separate amps that manage to sound essentially the same somehow. Even the tone controls and EQ manage to get set the same way per speaker choice out of 7 pairs.

The reason I keep using it is for convenient bass management when I need it or choose to mess with it for different speaker/sub combinations.

After cycling through, and trying to find an audible difference, or ultimately superior sound out of 9 different amplifiers over the last year, I have come to the conclusion that the actual "conveniences" that match one's listening needs are stronger than the often imagined sound improvement, or differences of other amps.

I've had opportunity to buy others for a song, or new, and I am one who will collect things and rotate their use, just because. I have no WAF telling me what I can, or cannot buy, and have the disposable income to piss away on such things.

Seas drivers should be able to work with any amp and be a credit to the worst of them if they wanted to impress me.
 
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