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[Truthslayer]

So you're against scholarships?

No, absolutely not. Those who are truly talented (mentally) who may not have the funds and excel in useful areas. Who can truly benefit themselves and society to further their education, scholarships are great. I was referring to this free for all college idea being promoted today.
Today at 9:18 AM

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Truthslayer said:

Kew, I don't think i recommended one over the other.

(kew)Seriously? WTF?

Truthslayer said:

I know some wont quiver about the 3500, but I wouldn't take it even if it were for free.

Truthslayer said:

But even if i did somehow unwittingly recommend one vs the other. What's the problem with that?

(kew)
I have absolutely no problem with that, my intent was to add more information with my post.
Note that I said "I wouldn't" be too quick to recommend one over the other (on the basis of the cooling system) without more information!
If I had said "You shouldn't" I would better understand where your post was coming from

KEW- many apologies if their was confusion with my post, and I may have miss read your post. As it seems some seem to be miss reading or miss interpreting my post. I am all for you adding more info. Getting all the info possible to aid in ones final decision, is great in my opinion. My concern was just to give the OP some things to think about over the two units, which was why I supplied the gut shots. But there were some who seem to think I was pushing him towards the 3600. And my concerns were not valid.

 

[Pogre]

Getting all the info possible to aid in ones final decision, is great in my opinion. My concern was just to give the OP some things to think about over the two units, which was why I supplied the gut shots. But there were some who seem to think I was pushing him towards the 3600. And my concerns were not valid.

If you're going to compare products with such a big discrepancy in price to give someone something to think about, why not bring up the 4500? In the context of this thread that seems like it'd make more sense. As far as the heat sinks and repositioned transformers go I think it only makes sense to beef up heat dissipation and change the layout to accommodate the 2 additional amp channels. It wasn't necessarily done because of realized problems or issues as you suggest.

 

[snakeeyes]

I wonder if Denon makes any profit on 3500 at $550. Do they make $50 ? Less?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

.
I'm willing to be very generous with my budget.
Spend it well spend it once. I am coming to see that a denon avrx3600h would do and spend good money on a nice power amp. It is a shame that a nice receiver worth solid money becomes worthless after a too short time just from technology obsolescence but it is what it is I suppose

How long will some of these new amps last? I suppose it depends on the brand. I've seen some amps needing repairs after 3 - 5 years.

So if you can get an AVR to last 15 - 20 years, that's awesome.

I think for MOST cases, most of these AVRs (including the Denon-3000 series and Yamaha-1000 series) will do just fine without needing external amps.

I think for the rare cases where you actually require external power amps, it might be best to use a separate Pre-pro, instead of an AVR.

The main reason is because without a way to completely separate or "disconnect" the amp section from the preamp section in the AVRs, Gene recently said that most of these AVRs may clip if the volume is high enough.

So to conclude, I think most AVRs will do just fine for most cases, which means most people don't even need to use an external amp in the first place.

But for those cases where a lot more power/ VOLUME is needed, you might be better off using a separate Pre-pro + amp, instead of AVR + Amp.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It was Gene's review that stated that the ECO mode would not compromise sound quality if you used external amplification. He may have learned more since then.
I would like to see the measurements showing this on D&M if you can provide a link!
I certainly am no expert on this, but my understanding is the power and voltage changes from ECO mode would be at the amplifier level, not at the pre-amp level!

@KEW
I do believe you have this right. Pre out voltage is unaffected.
I use external amplification on my mains with a Marantz 6012. Eco mode has not affected performance one bit. The only thing it did was lower the AVR’s temp from egg frying to cool to the touch.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wonder if Denon makes any profit on 3500 at $550. Do they make $50 ? Less?

I think @M Code said they make the money some other way. I can never remember how they make the money.

 

[snakeeyes]

I think @M Code said they make the money some other way. I can never remember how they make the money.

Maybe they don’t make money at that price. LOL

 

[snakeeyes]

@KEW
I do believe you have this right. Pre out voltage is unaffected.
I use external amplification on my mains with a Marantz 6012. Eco mode has not affected performance one bit. The only thing it did was lower the AVR’s temp from egg frying to cool to the touch.

Mmm eggs frying.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Mmm eggs frying.

Right?! It’s lunch time!!!

 

[Truthslayer]

If you're going to compare products with such a big discrepancy in price to give someone something to think about, why not bring up the 4500? In the context of this thread that seems like it'd make more sense. As far as the heat sinks and repositioned transformers go I think it only makes sense to beef up heat dissipation and change the layout to accommodate the 2 additional amp channels. It wasn't necessarily done because of realized problems or issues as you suggest.

Well I brought up the 3600 after the 3500 because 3600 comes after 3500 and before 4500 (lol) No , seriously though, I never mentioned the 4500 because it seemed like to me, you thought I shouldn't bring up the 3600 over the 3500 due to the $500 difference in price. And the 4500 was $1000 difference or so in price. Plus I believe there was not to much a difference in the 3600 vs the 4500. And I could be wrong, but I think the 3600 offered more power than he 4500.c
EDIT- I was wrong on the power aspect, think of another product.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It was Gene's review that stated that the ECO mode would not compromise sound quality if you used external amplification. He may have learned more since then.
I would like to see the measurements showing this on D&M if you can provide a link!
I certainly am no expert on this, but my understanding is the power and voltage changes from ECO mode would be at the amplifier level, not at the pre-amp level!

Maybe the preamp voltage is unaffected by the ECO mode.

I don't know if @gene or @PENG has actually measured the Preamp voltage in ECO mode.

But Gene did say that most AVRs (including Denon and Marantz) will clip when using external amps if the volume is high enough if there is not a mode to disconnect the preamp section from the amp section (Amp Disconnect Mode).

To me, that defeats the purpose of using external amps - so you can turn up the volume.

If you don't need to turn the volume up that high, then you probably don't need an external amp in the first place.

 

[PENG]

Maybe the preamp voltage is unaffected by the ECO mode.

I don't know if @gene or @PENG has actually measured the Preamp voltage in ECO mode.

But Gene did say that most AVRs (including Denon and Marantz) will clip when using external amps if the volume is high enough if there is not a mode to disconnect the preamp section from the amp section.

To me, that kind of defeats the whole purpose of using external amps - so you can turn up the volume.

If you don't need to turn the volume up that high, then you probably don't need an external amp in the first place.

Eco mode does not affect the preout voltage. Marantz confirmed it (I linked their response before), and yes I did do some measurements, had it > 4 V, never shutdown either.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Eco mode does not affect the preout voltage. Marantz confirmed it (I linked their response before), and yes I did do some measurements, had it > 4 V, never shutdown either.

So "ECO" mode is good for cases where you don't want/need to use a lot of power.

Now DM needs to add the "AMP DISCONNECT" mode to all their AVRs.

 

[PENG]

So "ECO" mode is good for cases where you don't want/need to use a lot of power.

Now DM needs to add the "AMP DISCONNECT" mode to all their AVRs.

If your volume is at around -40 to -45 assuming your vol 0 is calibrated to 85 dB avg at seat, you should be able to have it on without losing any performance and the unit will run cooler for sure.

Otherwise turn it off and put fan(s) on top, or don't use any int amp, then you can have eco on full time. You can also set it to "auto" though if your volume is always higher than the trigger point, then you may as well set it to "Off". I hope in the near future they would upgrade the trigger point to be temperature dependent, say heat sink temperature instead of volume position dependent.

 

[lovinthehd]

No, absolutely not. Those who are truly talented (mentally) who may not have the funds and excel in useful areas. Who can truly benefit themselves and society to further their education, scholarships are great. I was referring to this free for all college idea being promoted today.

So socialism only works for those doing lifetime military tours?

 

[Truthslayer]

So socialism only works for those doing lifetime military tours?

Socialism doesn't work period. Maybe in theory, but not in practice. Everyone complains about the government having to much power now, yet some want to have Socialism giving all the power over to the Government. There are no success stories of countries going with the Socialist path. Anyone who cant see that, there isn't much help for them other than a mental heath facility.
Capitalism is a proven success, it may not be perfect, but nothing is. There are always going to be things in life that just aint fair. That's life. But capitalism makes it easier to make things more fair. With Socialism, nothing is fair. Some deserve more for their efforts than others do, if you create a product, employee people and have a successful business, you deserve to reap the rewards. It's ok to be jealous or envious of those raking in the bank, ( some deserve it and some may not deserve) but that should not give us the right to take away from those who have more than others. I think most people would like to have more than they already have, but with Socialism you wont get the opportunity to have more. Everyone will all have same share, regardless if they work harder or less than the other guy. Only capitalism provides that opportunity.
Your comment regarding only working for those in the military doing lifetime military tours is absurd. You must have no concept of what is entailed with the military. The Work that is done, the commitment, sacrifices etc.
All those who seem to want socialism, I challenge them to go and live in a socialist ran country and then tell us how much they liked it and how great it worked out for them. LOL

 

[lovinthehd]

Socialism doesn't work period. Maybe in theory, but not in practice. Everyone complains about the government having to much power now, yet some want to have Socialism giving all the power over to the Government. There are no success stories of countries going with the Socialist path. Anyone who cant see that, there isn't much help for them other than a mental heath facility.
Capitalism is a proven success, it may not be perfect, but nothing is. There are always going to be things in life that just aint fair. That's life. But capitalism makes it easier to make things more fair. With Socialism, nothing is fair. Some deserve more for their efforts than others do, if you create a product, employee people and have a successful business, you deserve to reap the rewards. It's ok to be jealous or envious of those raking in the bank, ( some deserve it and some may not deserve) but that should not give us the right to take away from those who have more than others. I think most people would like to have more than they already have, but with Socialism you wont get the opportunity to have more. Everyone will all have same share, regardless if they work harder or less than the other guy. Only capitalism provides that opportunity.
Your comment regarding only working for those in the military doing lifetime military tours is absurd. You must have no concept of what is entailed with the military. The Work that is done, the commitment, sacrifices etc.
All those who seem to want socialism, I challenge them to go and live in a socialist ran country and then tell us how much they liked it and how great it worked out for them. LOL

LOL you are a socialist poster child with your career. Especially in the US. At least I assume you didn't do it out of the good of your heart without pay. Socialist democracies like ours are fairly successful, and many in the west in general....at least as good as it's gotten. We don't have pure capitalism nor have we ever had pure capitalism. Nice that you got your end of the socialist stick, but others don't deserve it?

 

[Truthslayer]

LOL you are a socialist poster child with your career. Especially in the US. At least I assume you didn't do it out of the good of your heart without pay. Socialist democracies like ours are fairly successful, and many in the west in general....at least as good as it's gotten. We don't have pure capitalism nor have we ever had pure capitalism. Nice that you got your end of the socialist stick, but others don't deserve it?

Wow, you really are cukoo! Your one of those who sits at home screaming and crying how you know better than others and how the country should be run. SJW's eh. Spewing his nonsense to others, but never willing to put his life on the line to back his views. And while the military is just now making a decent living, it has not always been that way. The pay was poop for a long time. You think you could serve and not get paid LOL. You must be under some false illusion the military pays for everything. I don't know anyone who joined for the money. They do it for the love and dedication of this country, our beliefs and values, and to protect our fellow citizens, even the cukoos with your views. Because without the military protecting your rights and views to spew out what nonsense you believe, you would get your socialist country. Then I would like to see how much you then enjoyed socialism. Pretty easy to sit behind a desk spouting off your nonsense and not be willing to lay your life on the line to back those views.
Socialist democracies LOL. Show me where that works. We are a democratic republic. Were we offer some social services to help those in need.
We may not have pure capitalism as you say, but we operate on a capitalism platform. As far as what others deserve, in this country MOST (maybe not all ) get out what they put in. And if they spent less time crying and whining and started doing something to help themselves, they would be more happy in the long run. As I said before, if you enjoy socialism so much. Go live in a socialist run country. Be sure and let us know how that worked out for you.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wow, you really are cukoo! Your one of those who sits at home screaming and crying how you know better than others and how the country should be run. SJW's eh. Spewing his nonsense to others, but never willing to put his life on the line to back his views. And while the military is just now making a decent living, it has not always been that way. The pay was poop for a long time. You think you could serve and not get paid LOL. You must be under some false illusion the military pays for everything. I don't know anyone who joined for the money. They do it for the love and dedication of this country, our beliefs and values, and to protect our fellow citizens, even the cukoos with your views. Because without the military protecting your rights and views to spew out what nonsense you believe, you would get your socialist country. Then I would like to see how much you then enjoyed socialism. Pretty easy to sit behind a desk spouting off your nonsense and not be willing to lay your life on the line to back those views.
Socialist democracies LOL. Show me where that works. We are a democratic republic. Were we offer some social services to help those in need.
We may not have pure capitalism as you say, but we operate on a capitalism platform. As far as what others deserve, in this country MOST (maybe not all ) get out what they put in. And if they spent less time crying and whining and started doing something to help themselves, they would be more happy in the long run. As I said before, if you enjoy socialism so much. Go live in a socialist run country. Be sure and let us know how that worked out for you.

We do live in a socialist democratic country, just the way it is. Talk about spewing nonsense, tho....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Did somebody hit the "POLITICS" mode, instead of the "ECO" mode?

I shy away from 2 things: Politics and Religion.