Upgrade: AMP or Speakers?

[serenity737]

My two cents,

If you are happy with your speakers upgrade your amp. If you are uncertain about keeping your speakers shop around. Identify some source material you know very well, bring it with you, and check out what is available. Remember to have salesmen match loudness levels. If you find a speaker you like better then put your money there. Much easier to upgrade adding an amp later for a system which has the sound you prefer than to spend your cash for something (like an amp) which won't have nearly as much impact on your listening experience.

Best,

Mike

 

[JerryLove]

Thanks Jerry. I'm very unecertain about Emotiva because of their price... Is the sound quality can be as good as a Marantz MM8003 for instance?

Amps don't have a sound. A well built amp is flat across the entire audiable spectrum.

Emotiva will sound the same as whatever other amp you'd like at a given wattage. For reference, I just bought Yamaha pro amps for my latest quest for audio nirvana. I'd have listed them, but you have to adapt to pro-style connectors to use them (something I had to do regardless)

BTW I'm a big fan of your avatar pic! Rock and Roll!

Thank you. It's a decent pic of me

Thinking about it, that salesman is FoS. He also told me (while watching a shitty picture on a 6k$ McIntosh DVD player) that Blu-Ray discs where increasing about 6x the pixels number, but the picture wasn't necessarily better.

What he has told you is technically correct for any defintion of "better" other than "more pixels".

That said: the thing that will make-or-break it will be the quality of the data on the disk itself, not the playback unit. The PS3 is an excellent playback unit for both DVD and Blu-Ray

BTW this is a saleman selling 20,000$+ McIntosh product. Not so different than the kids at Best Buy selling Bose Acoutismass system...

In defense of McIntosh: they are a very good product. Perhaps a better comparison would be MonsterCable.

 

[jeanseb]

In defense of McIntosh: they are a very good product. Perhaps a better comparison would be MonsterCable.

I agree with that 100%! What I meant is that think it's sad that a salesman selling very high-end product should have more knowledge than the guy at Best Buy. Just my opinion.

Thanks Jerry!

 

[jeanseb]

Here's an update on my quest of upgrading my speakers:

So I want to the Dumoulin store, where one of my friend is working as a salesman.

First of all, we played "Companion" from Patricia Barber on a pair of Paradigm Studio 60 v5 for a couple tracks. The sound was clear, neat, solid. We then decided to see if playing the same speakers on different amps (all in Pure Direct mode) would make any difference. All in all, we tried 4 AVR (Denon 3310, Yamaha RX-V1065, Marantz SR6004 and Marantz SR5004). The result was........ they sounded all the same! I couldn't believe it! It was true!

Speakers made the difference though.

So now that I know that my RX-V1600 can probably do the job, let's look at speakers. After being very pleased with the Studios, my friend switched the setup to Klipsch WF-35. W O W

After picking up my jaw from the floor with my left hand, I couldn't resist but to play as many records as I could on this kit. We played Stan Getz 1963, Tracy Chapman (Self Titled) in DDD, Dave Matthews & Tim Reynold, Tiësto - In Search of Sunrise 7, Hotel Coste, etc.

To conclude that wonderful experience, I had with me my copy of Max Payne BD (and the killer DTS-HD track that comes with). This is where I saw what these speakers could really do. So crisp, punchy, tight, solid! The dialogue was insanly clear! Like I never heard before on any other HT. WOW!

I spent from 5:00pm to 9:00pm in the HT showroom and, honestly, I think I could have slept on the floor just to keep listening at them.

I think I am truly in love

I'm putting an ad for my Athena/Energy 7.0 system right away!

 

[JerryLove]

Congratz on finding some speakers you love.

Remember that speakers interact *heavily* with their envyronment. Minor placement changes can have a large effect. Make sure there's an audition period (return policy) before you take them home.

And see? We weren't lying about amps sounding the same... though I think all the amps you tried are right around 100WPC.

 

[jeanseb]

though I think all the amps you tried are right around 100WPC.

I'm not telling that having a 200WPC McIntosh wouldn't make a difference, but I think that the other salesman telling me that Marantz were better "sonic" amp than Yamaha was off the track.

 

[JerryLove]

I'm not telling that having a 200WPC McIntosh wouldn't make a difference, but I think that the other salesman telling me that Marantz were better "sonic" amp than Yamaha was off the track.

I'm not discussing brand. They should all sound the same. And I'm not saying more wattage would help either of those speakers. That's unclear.

I'm saying *if* there was going to be a difference, it would be when there was a considerable change in WPC output. Underdriving a speaker causes inferior sound (at least I hope so, or I've wasted a lot of money )

 

[cfrizz]

I'm not discussing brand. They should all sound the same. And I'm not saying more wattage would help either of those speakers. That's unclear.

I'm saying *if* there was going to be a difference, it would be when there was a considerable change in WPC output. Underdriving a speaker causes inferior sound (at least I hope so, or I've wasted a lot of money )

Precisely. Don't use the word AMP for everything. Jeanseb, there is a difference between separate amplification and receivers. What some of us were saying is the amplifier in your RECEIVER is probably not up to the task, and adding a separate AMPLIFIER of significant wattage, might have made a difference.

I hope that you have truly found your speakers and don't end up with listener fatigue from all of that clarity due to the tweeters.

Personally I would still try a separate Emotiva XPA 2 with your current speakers before buying new speakers just to know for certain. Maybe someone on here with one lives in your area that will let you check it out on your system.

 

[jeanseb]

Precisely. Don't use the word AMP for everything. Jeanseb, there is a difference between separate amplification and receivers. What some of us were saying is the amplifier in your RECEIVER is probably not up to the task, and adding a separate AMPLIFIER of significant wattage, might have made a difference.

I hope that you have truly found your speakers and don't end up with listener fatigue from all of that clarity due to the tweeters.

Personally I would still try a separate Emotiva XPA 2 with your current speakers before buying new speakers just to know for certain. Maybe someone on here with one lives in your area that will let you check it out on your system.

I might have express myself in a wrong way. What I enjoy the most out of "good" speakers, is their ability to sound very good (and natural) at a low volume. My actuel system can play very darn loud! But the Klipsch seems way more precise and clear (3.5x the price too).

I'm not a fan of extreme loud music and movies. In that case, would an Emo XPA would make any difference?

 

[Zaluss]

IMO order of upgrades SHOULD be speakers, source/dac, amp.

Though I've gone amp, source/dac, speakers hehe.

 

[cfrizz]

I might have express myself in a wrong way. What I enjoy the most out of "good" speakers, is their ability to sound very good (and natural) at a low volume. My actuel system can play very darn loud! But the Klipsch seems way more precise and clear (3.5x the price too).

I'm not a fan of extreme loud music and movies. In that case, would an Emo XPA would make any difference?

Yes it would. That was the biggest shock that I got when I listened to the difference between my receiver & the adding a 205wpc Parasound amp to the mix.

What I gained the most from adding the amp was greater clarity across the board AT LOWER VOLUME! When I listened to my system with just the Denon receiver my normal volume level at low listening levels was -30, & even then it was hard to make out some of the lyrics. When I got the amp I had to turn it DOWN to -40 & all of a sudden, I was hearing the lyrics nice & clear.

I was now picking up subtle instruments & vocals that I never heard before from cd's I thought I knew very well. They were always there, but whether at loud volume or low volume, the receiver simply couldn't articulate the small nuances.

Just like you, I always thought that the benefit of having a separate amp meant I could go very loud. I could not have been more wrong. It was all the other differences that came through from having the amp that made it to this day, the BEST expenditure I have made on my system.

It was my intention to get Polk's LSI 15 speakers, but I had to get the amp first since Denon's aren't made to drive 4ohm speakers. However, once I got the amp, my upgrade to the LSI's went on indefinite hold since my then 15 year old Polk RTA-8 speakers were suddenly sounding better than ever, since they were finally operating to their full potential!

 

[JerryLove]

The speakers and room will have the most effect on your sound. After that, the next thing I would look at is amp. Then most anything else.

 

[jeanseb]

The speakers and room will have the most effect on your sound. After that, the next thing I would look at is amp. Then most anything else.

Thanks again Jerry!

I got one question for you: Is a more sensible speaker will require less power to get the same sound quality out of it?

 

[JerryLove]

Thanks again Jerry!

I got one question for you: Is a more sensible speaker will require less power to get the same sound quality out of it?

I assume you mean "sensitive".

Yes. Sensitivity says nothing at all about sound quality: it tells you how much power you need for a given SPL (volume). So a more sensitive speaker will be louder at a given amount of power than a less sensitive one.

Remember, evere 3db doubles (or halves) the wattage needed. So a 92db speaker will require half the power for a given volume that an 89db speaker will.

 

[jeanseb]

I assume you mean "sensitive".

Yes. Sensitivity says nothing at all about sound quality: it tells you how much power you need for a given SPL (volume). So a more sensitive speaker will be louder at a given amount of power than a less sensitive one.

Remember, evere 3db doubles (or halves) the wattage needed. So a 92db speaker will require half the power for a given volume that an 89db speaker will.

I know that the Klipsch That I'm looking at (WF-35) are rated at 97dB. Would that be a good thing for me?

 

[serenity737]

Jeanseb,

Not good or bad. Rather, if you the speakers are a fit for you, it you really like their sound on preferred source material that is what is most important. If the Klipsch are more efficient than the speakers you have now they may go further - open up more - using the same level of amplification you already have. This may decrease the need for you to seek out a new amp.

Best thing for you to do is to arrange to take them home for a trial period and try them out. If it is "all good" then have confidence in the choice you have made.

Best,

Mike

 

[jeanseb]

What is the advantage of Bi-Amplification over Bi-Wiring. On my RX-V1600, I got 2 options:

1-Bi-Wire it using Speaker A + B

2-Bi-Amplify it using the surround back

Which one should I use?

Thanks!!

 

[JerryLove]

What is the advantage of Bi-Amplification over Bi-Wiring. On my RX-V1600, I got 2 options:

Bi-wiring offers you nothing but (vitrually) thicker wire. It would be a way to use, for example, 50' of 14 gague instead of 25' of 10 gague.

BiAmping allows you to run the HF and LF drivers on seperate amps. This is important under one of two conditions:
1) If your using an active crossover (your speaker is not)
2) If your amplifier cannot drive both halves of your speaker (since HF uses a fraction of the power of LF, that's unlikely).

In your case, there's likely no advantage to either.

 

[jeanseb]

2) If your amplifier cannot drive both halves of your speaker (since HF uses a fraction of the power of LF, that's unlikely).

So let's say that I put a hand on a Klipsch WF system, using Bi-Amp on the mains wouldn't make any difference?

 

[JerryLove]

So let's say that I put a hand on a Klipsch WF system, using Bi-Amp on the mains wouldn't make any difference?

It's very unlikely that it would. An amp that can drive your LF can drive your whole speaker.

And remember: even though it's not being used to drive both halfs, because there's a passive crossover post amp, rather than an active pre-amp, the amp doesn't know it's not. It will try to reproduce the entire waveform.

Regardless. A single more powerful amp will be cheaper than two "powerful enough" amps anyway.

and at 97db sensitivity: you can run 117db at 100WPC. A jackhammer is only 100db (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#Examples_of_sound_pressure_and_sound_pressure_levels)