Trolling 201: Advanced Flooshing

[mulester7]

My point is that, for this very reason, the sub is equally, if not more important than the (subjective/objective) quality of the other speakers, principly the L/C/R.

.....RJ, a sub will NEVER be more important than any combination of the main's regiment....I suspect this line of thinking would apply to attempts to bring up the quality of the main's regiment, which a sub cannot do if implemented properly....

If you listen to 2.1 music, then any kind of sub that doesn't adequately extend the quality of the mains, has a detrimental effect upon the overall music you're hearing from your ("priority received") mains. The same holds true with 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 home theater audio.

....I would say the only speakers this would hold true with MIGHT be the Axiom's that have a powered subwoofer onboard....any 3-way speaker that claims 30 hz as a low is still ruled by the industry standard of +/- 3db, which could mean 60 hz, and usually does....

And we don't need Gene's gloves. I have a cream pie in my hand right now....awaitin'....

.....RJ, I'll duck that pie and knock knots on yore head faster than you can rub 'em....go for the main's regiment, Guys, and add the appropriate subs when you can go them....out......

 

[Darth Mike]

.....good post, Darth, and I would go with two subs of the same line that are 10 inch over a single 8....but, from what I've read here at this site, I would go with two Hsu 1's over two of the Infinity 10's....two subs for $600 ain't bad, trust me, I wish I could have gotten out for that....I love two subs in the front soundstage....and, let us never forget the immortal words of Patrick Henry spoken in 1775....

On March 23, 1775, the American patriot Patrick Henry gave a speech to his fellow Virginians in St. John's Church in Richmond, where the Virginia legislature was meeting at the time. The speech is famous for the closing line, "I KNOW NOT WHAT COURSE OTHERS MAY TAKE; BUT AS FOR ME, GIVE ME TWO SUBS IN THE FRONT SOUNDSTAGE, OR GIVE ME DEATH!"

I agree with you totally, I was only recommending dual PSW-10's because it would be an affordable solution to bass normality and still whoop tail over those cheesy polk HTiB subs. I would definitly choose dual STF-1's over the afforementioned, but for the price pint he is in I would say its a wee bit overkill, especially for Primus 150 mains. I doubt that the guy buying these wants to spend over twice what he has into his mains to buy more bass than needed. Properly setup I will dare to say dual PSW-10's will be more than enough for a normal listener in a 15x20 room. By all means the STF-2 is a superior subwoofer though, and I wouldn't TOUCH a PSW-8 with a 10 foot pole!

 

[mulester7]

Mulester,

You're one of the LAST persons on this forum that I would expect to hear say that subwoofers aren't that important.

Say, how many of those monster SVS's subs do you have?

BTW: I like three subs on the front soundstage.

.....Major, the LAST thing I am saying is that subs aren't WONDERFUL AND IMPORTANT....I'm thinking in terms of new guys just getting into the hobby and trying to point out what is important to me were I to be able to do things over....if one stays in this hobby and it becomes a hobby, they're GOING to do some upgrading from a plateau from which they began....I'm only trying to advise personal opinions about what I would emphasize were I starting over....didn't you establish your Canton's before now going for HSU 3 Turbo's?....and actually, these SVS mini-barns will end up only dealing with about 40-50 hz down....three bass seperates in sealed type II boxes will take it from 40-50 up to about 175 hz....if I had it to do over, I sure would not have gotten the SVS subs I have which arguably go down to 20 hz as per a full sinewave in a larger room....starting over with the present system, I would have placed more emphasis on more bass seperates in type II sealed boxes geared more toward the listening position of about 12 feet, and probably would have gotten two of the SVS PB 10's, which are front-firing and arguably go down to 18 hz per large room....I'm not going to chop up the mini-barns for firewood though....and, sure, I love them....they are front firing as well, and will snuff a bic lighter at about 5 feet....oh well.....

 

[mulester7]

I agree with tyou totally, I was only recommending dual PSW-10's because it would be an affordable solution to bass normality and still whoop tail over those cheesy polk HTiB subs. I would definitly choose dual STF-1's over the afforementioned, but for the price pint he is in I would say its a wee bit overkill, especially for Primus 150 mains. I doubt that the guy buying these wants to spend over twice what he has into his mains to buy more bass than needed. Properly setup I will dare to say dual PSW-10's will be more than enough for a normal listener in a 15x20 room. By all means the STF-2 is a superior subwoofer though, and I wouldn't TOUCH a PSW-8 with a 10 foot pole!

.....total agreement, Darth....at most entry level points, two PSW-10's would be the way to go....two subs in the front soundstage allow you to lower the gain on both for longevity of the subs, and you still get plenty....I assure you, two subs in the front soundstage sound like 3 over 1....let's break for supper, Guys, I hear the buffet line at Kentucky Fried calling me.....out........

 

[majorloser]

.....Major, the LAST thing I am saying is that subs aren't WONDERFUL AND IMPORTANT....I'm thinking in terms of new guys just getting into the hobby and trying to point out what is important to me were I to be able to do things over....if one stays in this hobby and it becomes a hobby, they're GOING to do some upgrading from a plateau from which they began....I'm only trying to advise personal opinions about what I would emphasize were I starting over....didn't you establish your Canton's before now going for HSU 3 Turbo's?....and actually, these SVS mini-barns will end up only dealing with about 40-50 hz down....three bass seperates in sealed type II boxes will take it from 40-50 up to about 175 hz....if I had it to do over, I sure would not have gotten the SVS subs I have which arguably go down to 20 hz as per a full sinewave in a larger room....starting over with the present system, I would have placed more emphasis on more bass seperates in type II sealed boxes geared more toward the listening position of about 12 feet, and probably would have gotten two of the SVS PB 10's, which are front-firing and arguably go down to 18 hz per large room....I'm not going to chop up the mini-barns for firewood though....and, sure, I love them....they are front firing as well, and will snuff a bic lighter at about 5 feet....oh well.....

Actually I bought two powered subwoofer the SAME time I bought the Canton towers (good deal). I opted for the powered subs over the larger Canton towers.

Hindsight being 20/20........

I'd have bought the larger towers AND bigger subwoofers

BTW: "mini-barns".....I like that Could definitely use them as chicken coups.

 

[mulester7]

BTW: "mini-barns".....I like that Could definitely use them as chicken coups.

.....Major, I find eggs inside of the subs all the time as my 40-or-so yard chickens are free to come and go....one problem though....I'm going to have to start going further away from the house to relieve myself in the woods, I guess....the chickens are trackin' it in the house lately....now I'm gone.....

 

[STRONGBADF1]

.....good post, Darth, and I would go with two subs of the same line that are 10 inch over a single 8....but, from what I've read here at this site, I would go with two Hsu 1's over two of the Infinity 10's....two subs for $600 ain't bad, trust me, I wish I could have gotten out for that....I love two subs in the front soundstage....and, let us never forget the immortal words of Patrick Henry spoken in 1775....

On March 23, 1775, the American patriot Patrick Henry gave a speech to his fellow Virginians in St. John's Church in Richmond, where the Virginia legislature was meeting at the time. The speech is famous for the closing line, "I KNOW NOT WHAT COURSE OTHERS MAY TAKE; BUT AS FOR ME, GIVE ME TWO SUBS IN THE FRONT SOUNDSTAGE, OR GIVE ME DEATH!"

Now for the WAF part the history books left out...

Mrs. Henry- "Don't they make any thing smaller and why do you need two of them?"

Patrick Henry- "But dear Thomas Jefferson has a monster two driver sub and George Washington has his own theater room with two subs!"

Mrs. Henry- "I don't care who has what! I don't want all that junk cluttering the living room! And thats final"

Patrick Henry- "But smoochums..."

Mrs. Henry- "No buts!"

Patrick Henry- "Yes dear"

He was known for talking big in front of his freinds!

 

[Sheep]

2 subs in the front stage will not have a flat response (in most cases).

Thats why my subs are in opposing corners. Unfortunately, they don't match...

SheepStar

 

[Darth Mike]

Now for the WAF part the history books left out...

Mrs. Henry- "Don't they make any thing smaller and why do you need two of them?"

Patrick Henry- "But dear Thomas Jefferson has a monster two driver sub and George Washington has his own theater room with two subs!"

Mrs. Henry- "I don't care who has what! I don't want all that junk cluttering the living room! And thats final"

Patrick Henry- "But smoochums..."

Mrs. Henry- "No buts!"

Patrick Henry- "Yes dear"

He was known for talking big in front of his freinds!

His being snatch-whipped is not our concern, he didn't mention WAF, so we never factored it in.

 

[Darth Mike]

2 subs in the front stage will not have a flat response (in most cases).

Thats why my subs are in opposing corners. Unfortunately, they don't match...

SheepStar

For a normal listener, dual subs will sound very nice...if adjusted properly...

 

[STRONGBADF1]

My vote for a HT system is for all the speakers including the sub(s) to be of equal quality.(sound quality) Don't put one over the other. Now if that means puting off buying the sub(s) So you can get the quality you desire from the rest of the setup so be it. Don't spend good money for bad no matter what price range your in.

SBF1

 

[Sheep]

For a normal listener, dual subs will sound very nice...if adjusted properly...

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/SubwooferplacementP16.php

This article contains different scenarios of subwoofer placements, and the response of each.

My layout (subwoofer wise)

Dual subs in the front stage:

SheepStar

 

[STRONGBADF1]

For a normal listener, dual subs will sound very nice...if adjusted properly...

For a normal listener one modest sub adjusted properly will sound awsome.

SBF1

 

[STRONGBADF1]

If you can foresee being willing and able to put more money in to a system down the road buy the best speakers (2.0 3.0 5.0) you can afford then add as money allows. If not and you want it all at once make all your components of equal (sound) quality. It doesn't make any sense not to. To me anyway...but thats why we have a great fourm like this so people can see many ways to go about this hobby and then deside what works best for their ears and wallet.

Unless money isn't an issue, I would not spend the extra money on more than one sub until I realized the one sub I have isn't enough for me any more. I realize that mutiple subs (set up properly) can give a flatter response but most only have one and are very happy.

SBF1

 

[Tomorrow]

.....RJ, a sub will NEVER be more important than any combination of the main's regiment....I suspect this line of thinking would apply to attempts to bring up the quality of the main's regiment, which a sub cannot do if implemented properly........I would say the only speakers this would hold true with MIGHT be the Axiom's that have a powered subwoofer onboard....any 3-way speaker that claims 30 hz as a low is still ruled by the industry standard of +/- 3db, which could mean 60 hz, and usually does.........RJ, I'll duck that pie and knock knots on yore head faster than you can rub 'em....go for the main's regiment, Guys, and add the appropriate subs when you can go them....out......

You have gone a bit further than Colonel Sanders for this stretch, Mulester. And you keep ignoring two very important points, here.

1. A sub that is inferior to the quality of the mains WILL degrade the total sound you hear from whatever source, while a sub of superior quality to the mains will not degrade the sound. Yes or no?

2. We are dealing with a real person, his purchasing budget, and his already-made decision to go with a specific set of speakers. This is not hypothetical stuff we're munching on, here, and we might have gotten a bit off the old train track. Yes? (No is not an option on this one, lol. )

 

[mulester7]

You have gone a bit further than Colonel Sanders for this stretch, Mulester. And you keep ignoring two very important points, here.

1. A sub that is inferior to the quality of the mains WILL degrade the total sound you hear from whatever source, while a sub of superior quality to the mains will not degrade the sound. Yes or no?

2. We are dealing with a real person, his purchasing budget, and his already-made decision to go with a specific set of speakers. This is not hypothetical stuff we're munching on, here, and we might have gotten a bit off the old train track. Yes? (No is not an option on this one, lol. )

.....man, you just won't quit....RJ, show me WHERE I said get an INFERIOR sub....most sub low-pass cut-off points are at what?....correct, 80 cycles or so....at 80 hz down playing the sub by itself, you hear NO midrange voices or ANY part of the voices, and are lucky to even know what key you are in with music....so, which is more important, 80 cycles down to 30 or so, or 80 cycles up to 20,000 with voices, all the instruments, drums and cymbals, and tinkling wind-chimes?....we all love our subs and they are a WONDERFUL add, but we seemed to get along just fine without them up until about 1990, didn't we?....now, there's nothing you can come back with that's going to back me off of saying "place a priority on the main's regiment", then add an "appropriate" sub or subs when you can....too many people take an attitude of just getting by with a main's regiment mixing in much cheaper brands on surrounds and centers, so they can get that $1500 sub....that's backwards thinking for the presence of your sound chamber, upgraditis will set in all too soon, and it should, imo.....

 

[mulester7]

2 subs in the front stage will not have a flat response (in most cases).

.....Sheep, that's because in "most cases", people try two subs that are down-firing, and the room resonances and damping deficiencies play a larger role....

 

[Sheep]

.....Sheep, that's because in "most cases", people try two subs that are down-firing, and the room resonances and damping deficiencies play a larger role....

It's not the firing direction of the woofer, it's the waves interacting with eachother and the walls.

I linked the response of front ported subwoofers a couple posts up.

SheepStar

 

[mulester7]

It's not the firing direction of the woofer, it's the waves interacting with eachother and the walls.

I linked the response of front ported subwoofers a couple posts up.

SheepStar

.....Sheep, I love two front-firing subs in the front soundstage, supporting the front soundstage, equally split apart from the middle close to being in the corners....I don't see that wave interaction from direct front-firing cone dispersement could cause the total effect to not be as flat at lower frequencies....are you saying which direction the ports are facing makes a difference?....my subs port to the left side, do front ports make a difference?....but I will say this....I heard a system one time that had down-firing subs in opposing corners, and honestly I seemed to hear slightly lower pitches from the rear one dissonantly going against the pitches of the front one when I faced the front, and vice-versa when I turned and faced the rear....kind of like when I stand out in front of the train I am on in a siding to watch a passing train go by, which is called a roll-by inpection that must be done from the ground by the conductor....the approaching train is blowing his horn for a crossing getting closer I am close to, and as his head-end goes by me, the horn pitch lowers.....

 

[Jack Hammer]

Not taking any sides here...

I bought front speakers, then surrounds, then upgraded the fronts again all while using a crappy Jensen HTIB 8" sub. There was a huge difference in the sound quality of my current sub vs that crappy Jensen unit. That being said, for me, if I had to redo it, I'd have bought even nicer fronts and then upgraded the sub. I've been very happy with my sub, actually I'm considering adding another to make it more obnoxious. While the new sub really adds a "WOW!" effect to movie watching I get more overall effect from my front speakers and surrounds. Bear in mind, I was still using a crappy Jensen HTIB 8" sub from the getgo to still give me some LFE, you gotta have something to add lower frequencies.

My $0.02

Jack