Towers vs Bookshelf/subs

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Maybe he needs to come over to your place and get a little education/reality check audio wise.

Well most people just don't really care about audio.

My wife's best friend's husband sells high-end projectors, so he cares about PQ. I kind of thought PQ & SQ go hand-in-hand with theater sound like Dolby Atmos, SDDS, LPCM, etc. But no, he has a Sony HTIB. But he drives a new BMW X5, so he just doesn't care about audio.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Who cares how much they weigh? The enclosure isn't exactly huge, and since the panels are somewhat small you wouldn't need a lot of internal bracing. A few dowels should get the job done. The weight is a plus as far as I see it.

Have you seen the Klippel of the KEF Reference woofers? Quite good. I'd rather own a SS Illuminator, but not bad nonetheless!

Anyway, 6.5k is far too costly for the 201/2, IMO. It is too SPL limited (down low) for that price... One 6.5" LF driver and low sensitivity to boot? Jeff B's Continuum has a very tight tolerance and it's more sensitive than the 201/2. I'm not saying the continuum is a better loudspeaker than the 201/2, but it's a pretty neutral speaker with similar max SPL for $5,000 cheaper..

You really should control your caffeine intake... first you argue, then you support my case, then you agree.

Weight and size affect production cost, which looks relatively low in the case of the 201/2, as say compared to the 207/2, which is only 3x the price. As for the mid-tweeter, it is just one assembly that looks a lot lower cost to make than a midrange and a discrete tweeter.

 

[monkish54]

You really should control your caffeine intake... first you argue, then you support my case, then you agree.

Weight and size affect production cost, which looks relatively low in the case of the 201/2, as say compared to the 207/2, which is only 3x the price. As for the mid-tweeter, it is just one assembly that looks a lot lower cost to make than a midrange and a discrete tweeter.

This aggression will not stand, man. You should reread the post.

I didn't argue, support you, then agree. I argued that the weight was a plus, let you know that the drivers are pretty sweet, and then agreed that the cost of the product is too high. I can argue with one point while agreeing with another. It's not all or nothing.

Weight and size affect production cost, which looks relatively low in the case of the 201/2, as say compared to the 207/2, which is only 3x the price. As for the mid-tweeter, it is just one assembly that looks a lot lower cost to make than a midrange and a discrete tweeter.

Concentric drivers are more expensive to produce. I imagine by quite a lot, actually. Go rip up an old driver and realize you have to make room for an entire tweeter assembly and do so just right so that the cone of the MF/LF driver acts as a waveguide. Concentric drivers are very sophisticated. Even off-the-shelf coaxials that are far less sophisticated than KEF and TAD are very expensive.

As for the weight and size of the enclosure itself, we are in agreement.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Concentric drivers are more expensive to produce. I imagine by quite a lot, actually.

I knew you'd say that. If only the stock market was so predictable.

 

[monkish54]

I knew you'd say that. If only the stock market was so predictable.

Yes, I tend to say things that are factual. Maybe I should be less accurate so as to be less predicable. That would really help the community.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All these speakers probably seem overpriced if we just look at the cost of the individual parts.

The $22,000 Salon2 & $30K Blade probably "seem" overpriced as well.

If we buy aftermarket parts & drivers, would they add up to $5K (805D2), $6K (201/2), $22K (Salon2), & $30K (Blade)?

What if we could buy at dealer cost? The 805D2 for $3K, 201/2 for $3K, Salon2 $12K, and Blade $16? Of course, not counting research & labor.

Diamond tweeters (although equivocally not superior to Beryllium) might be justified. Aftermarket diamond tweeters cost ~ $3-4K/PR. So getting the 805D2 at $3K seems like a bargain - if you actually think the sound is better than other speakers.

And since we are talking about cost effectiveness, I think it leads back to my hypothesis that Sat + Subs seems to be more cost effective than towers.

For example, the RBH T1 (92dB/2.83v/m) is much liked by our leader Gene. It is accurate & dynamic w/ SPL to shame most towers that have sensitivity no higher than 90dB or lower. Team such Sats w/ accurate & dynamic subs, and I think it is more cost effective than most towers.

Of course, the argument is than Sats just don't sound as good as towers.

To each his own.

 

[monkish54]

I think it leads back to my hypothesis that Sat + Subs seems to be more cost effective than towers.

Cost effective, and all around a better idea than towers alone, IMO. Sat + sub gives one the option to place the bass transducers where they are needed, rather than allowing bass transducers to be restrained by the placement of high and mid frequencies. full range + sub is "better" one could argue because it is more flexible (and SPL could be increased depending on the sat) but it wouldn't be the most cost effective. If you want the best sound you can get for the cheapest possible price, sub + sat are a great way to go!

I'll ask Kevin about the parts cost of the Salon 2 next time I see him. I'd guess around 5k maybe 7.. I probably won't be able to post it on the web, but I'll let you know if it's close to my guess.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What....... You guys pals now?

Yeah, if dealer cost is $12K, I bet actual cost is like $3K.

I bet the 201/2 actual cost is like $750 since dealer cost is $3K.

So all these speakers seem overpriced.

 

[monkish54]

What....... You guys pals now?

Yeah, if dealer cost is $12K, I bet actual cost is like $3K.

I bet the 201/2 actual cost is like $750 since dealer cost is $3K.

So all these speakers seem overpriced.

Turns out he comes into the restaurant my mother and I work pretty often. In fact, my mother who had no idea who he was, was fairly "close" with him. She's known him for 2 years....NEVER SAID ANYTHING.

She took me over to his table a few weeks ago and introduced me. He's a very nice guy! He invited me down to meet Sean Olive and have a listening test!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Turns out he comes into the restaurant my mother and I work pretty often. In fact, my mother who had no idea who he was, was fairly "close" with him. She's known him for 2 years....NEVER SAID ANYTHING.

She took me over to his table a few weeks ago and introduced me. He's a very nice guy! He invited me down to meet Sean Olive and have a listening test!

Holy crap.

Very cool story.

If Kevin asks me (which he wouldn't ) what I would change about the Ultima2 line, I would say to make the Gem2 look like a mini-Studio2.

I initially wanted to get Revel Salon2 x 2 & Gem2 x 3, but the aesthetic of the Gem2 turned me off big time - it looks like a "surround speaker", instead of a SERIOUS audiophile monitor.

 

[monkish54]

Holy crap.

Very cool story.

If Kevin asks me (which he wouldn't ) what I would change about the Ultima2 line, I would say to make the Gem2 look like a mini-Studio2.

I initially wanted to get Revel Salon2 x 2 & Gem2 x 3, but the aesthetic of the Gem2 turned me off big time - it looks like a "surround speaker", instead of a SERIOUS audiophile monitor.

I'll let him know. It doesn't look nearly as good, I agree. I told him the Salon 2 was the first speaker I had ever heard that I truly wanted to take home..

I have heard hundreds of loudspeakers to date, and my list has maybe 7 different speakers, the Salon 2 still among them.

 

[walter duque]

Maybe, but at $6500/pair with stands for the 201/2... whew!... that's quite a pile of change for 27lbs and two drivers.

You think that's crazy, I went to my local dealer and these are 15k for speakers and 7.5k for the stands. I don't even remember what brand they where.

 

[monkish54]

You think that crazy, I went to my local dealer and these are 15k for speakers and 7.5k for the stands. I don't even remember what brand they where.

Great drivers--awful price..

 

[cpp]

And he's telling the kids to be careful w/ his "surround sound system"

I'm thinking to myself, "I wouldn't even buy my 10 YO daughter that piece of crap system.

Oh, he also has a nice pool table and bar area. And movie posters nicely framed.

But a HTIB.

is that like Bose on crack


Hey monkish now I know where my grill grates went

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The TAD CR1 monitors are $37,000/pair, matching stands are $3600/pair.

Sensitivity is 86dB/2.83v/m, concentric drivers, 101 lbs, 24.7" tall.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/tad-compact-reference-cr1-loudspeaker-specifications

TAD CR1:

KEF 201/2:

REVEL Salon2:

 

[ski2xblack]

I knew you'd say that. If only the stock market was so predictable.

I have the power to move markets; when I buy, the price drops. Should I let you know so you can buy on the dips?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just noticed that the $180,000 Focal Grande Utopia III uses a 16" built-in subwoofer XO @ 80Hz. No wonder it can go down to 18Hz flat.

That's similar to using a dedicated Sub XO @ 80Hz with a monitor on top.

Why, I bet Nathan can build a sweet Funk Grande Utopia IV using dual 18" built-in subs XO @ 80Hz w/ the Funk tower on top.

 

[monkish54]

I just noticed that the $180,000 Focal Grande Utopia III uses a 16" built-in subwoofer XO @ 80Hz. No wonder it can go down to 18Hz flat.

The 16" woofer in the $180,000 Focal Grande Utopia EM uses a field coil instead of permanent magnet.

Scroll to see how parameters change with more DC voltage across the field coil.

400 EXC SUPRAVOX

 

[ImcLoud]

Where can we go to listen to them? $180,000,
I bought a piece of property 10 years ago, actually bought a house with 3 times the local land minimum, so I sub divided it, fixed up the house, and sold the house for a little more than I paid for the property leaving me with 2 "FREE" buildable lots. I cleared the lots, had them perked and built a 2 family rental home on one, that I am keeping, and the other is ready for construction, it actually already has a foundation and driveway {got a really good deal on pouring 2 foundations vs 1 when I built the 2 family}. Anyway, the other lot is closing next week and I sold it for $155K, so for that piece of land and another $25K {plus sales tax would be over $12000 more} I can have a set of them babies.. LOL My point being, that is a lot of money for a pair of speakers, and if you have them Im sure you wouldn't want emo electronics running them... All the time I spent at that property meeting surveyors, cutting down trees, Digging foundations, grading driveways, ect... The profit can not even buy me a pair of speakers.... Although by the time my kids are in college I will probably need to sell 5 more pieces of property to pay for it, hmmm college educations for my kids or speakers, its getting a lot closer now...

 

[JerryLove]

I just noticed that the $180,000 Focal Grande Utopia III uses a 16" built-in subwoofer XO @ 80Hz. No wonder it can go down to 18Hz flat.

That's similar to using a dedicated Sub XO @ 80Hz with a monitor on top.

As long as by "monitor" you are referring to a 3-way, 4-driver system.