Towers vs Bookshelf/subs

[psbfan9]

Ordinarily I would agree but the 8Ts load bass into a room unlike any other speaker I've ever experienced. I wouldn't trade the 8Ts setup as a fullrange system for 8T Satellites with 2 or 4 of its bass modules properly placed in the room for anything but maybe home theater. The way the bass integrates with the satellite speaker is seamless and almost impossible to do with a separated sub/sat system. Has to be heard to really understand.

Gene, would you say that Philip Bamberg's designs are a better example of what ADTG is doing than the 8Ts? His speakers seem to be a sub/sat, modular design, but on a much smaller scale than the 8Ts.

 

[gene]

Gene, would you say that Philip Bamberg's designs are a better example of what ADTG is doing than the 8Ts? His speakers seem to be a sub/sat, modular design, but on a much smaller scale than the 8Ts.

Sorry haven't been following ADTG's 20-30 different speaker setups I like Philip's approach and his stuff looks solid. Great build quality, great drivers, great know how in execution.

My point was small bookshelf speakers paired with multiple subs can be great but you never get enough upper bass output in the 60-150Hz range with these type of setups in my opinion.

I really like pairing subs with taller flloorstanders that don't have a lot of extension below 50Hz but lots of output in the upper bass region.

Depends on the room size, listening habits, etc. In a room the size of the Audioholics Showcase, big speakers with incredible dynamic range are essential, especially when we are cranking a Steve Wilson Blu-ray

 

[Irvrobinson]

My point was small bookshelf speakers paired with multiple subs can be great but you never get enough upper bass output in the 60-150Hz range with these type of setups in my opinion.

I really like pairing subs with taller flloorstanders that don't have a lot of extension below 50Hz but lots of output in the upper bass region.

This reflects my limited experience too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My point was small bookshelf speakers paired with multiple subs can be great but you never get enough upper bass output in the 60-150Hz range with these type of setups in my opinion.

What if you XO @ 150 Hz with great subs?

Wouldn't these subs play the 60-150 Hz region as well (flat + high clean low distortion output) as the towers?

Also, wouldn't monitors like the T1 and 92dB+ high efficiency monitors be capable of higher output in the upper bass region than many towers with sensitivity of under 90dB/2.83v/m ?

For example, towers: Phil3 is 85dB/2.83v/m, the Salon2 is 86dB/2.83v/m, B&W 800D2 is 90dB, KEF 207/2 is 91dB.

The monitors: Klipsch KL650 is 92dB, RBH SX-T1 is 92dB, One Pi is 93dB, JTR S8 95dB, etc.

 

[gene]

What if you XO @ 150 Hz with great subs?

Wouldn't these subs play the 60-150 Hz region as well (flat + high clean low distortion output) as the towers?

Also, wouldn't monitors like the T1 and 92dB+ high efficiency monitors be capable of higher output in the upper bass region than many towers with sensitivity of under 90dB/2.83v/m ?

For example, towers: Phil3 is 85dB/2.83v/m, the Salon2 is 86dB/2.83v/m, B&W 800D2 is 90dB, KEF 207/2 is 91dB.

The monitors: Klipsch KL650 is 92dB, RBH SX-T1 is 92dB, One Pi is 93dB, JTR S8 95dB, etc.

Yes but now you have to place 2 subs in close proximity to the main speakers so that they blend properly and aren't localized. Hence, why not just go back to sub/sat tower system like a T2 and bass manage and EQ the bottom subs? Excellent results can be achieved like this, especially since the main front speakers are typically spaced roughly 1/4W distance of the width of the room.

 

[ImcLoud]

How about towers and subs I have played with so many different combos and crossovers, to me that is half the fun setting it all up, makes me feel like I had something to do with the sound more than just writing the check... I have spent just as much time setting up my buddies systems as mine, my favorite being sierra towers and uls15 dual drive with the xls1 pre amp because that is much easier then playing with crossovers and fmods...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes but now you have to place 2 subs in close proximity to the main speakers so that they blend properly and aren't localized. Hence, why not just go back to sub/sat tower system like a T2 and bass manage and EQ the bottom subs? Excellent results can be achieved like this, especially since the main front speakers are typically spaced roughly 1/4W distance of the width of the room.

Yes, actually I was thinking precisely of the T2 system when I wrote that.

But you're saying the T1 should handle the 60Hz-20kHz and the 1010 sub should handle only 20-60Hz?

I was thinking letting the 1010 sub handle 20Hz-150Hz, and letting the T1 handle 150Hz-20kHz.

 

[gene]

Yes, actually I was thinking precisely of the T2 system when I wrote that.

But you're saying the T1 should handle the 60Hz-20kHz and the 1010 sub should handle only 20-60Hz?

I was thinking letting the 1010 sub handle 20Hz-150Hz, and letting the T1 handle 150Hz-20kHz.

• No the T1 satellites should be crossed over at 80Hz 2nd order HPF.
• The T1 bass modules should be crossed over above 80Hz, likely 120Hz or 150Hz with a 4th order LPF.
• Single band EQ is all that is needed to flatten out the extra low end extension if they are placed too closely to a corner and/or your listening seats are closer than 1/4L of the room to the backwall.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Another thing I meant to say is that 3 of the best measured (+/- 1dB) speakers in the world happen to be all bookshelf speakers: the KEF 201/2, NHT Absolute Zero, and Klipsch KL650-THX. Another one is the KEF LS50.

Of course, "measurements" aren't everything.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Another thing I meant to say is that 3 of the best measured (+/- 1dB) speakers in the world happen to be all bookshelf speakers: the KEF 201/2, NHT Absolute Zero, and Klipsch KL650-THX. Another one is the KEF LS50.

Of course, "measurements" aren't everything.

Maybe, but at $6500/pair with stands for the 201/2... whew!... that's quite a pile of change for 27lbs and two drivers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Maybe, but at $6500/pair with stands for the 201/2... whew!... that's quite a pile of change for 27lbs and two drivers.

Actually the 201/2 is a 3-way.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Actually the 201/2 is a 3-way.

True, but there are only two drivers. The midrange and tweeter are coaxial, so there are only two driver assemblies.

 

[monkish54]

Maybe, but at $6500/pair with stands for the 201/2... whew!... that's quite a pile of change for 27lbs and two drivers.

Who cares how much they weight? The enclosure isn't exactly huge, and since the panels are somewhat small you wouldn't need a lot of internal bracing. A few dowels should get the job done. The weight is a plus as far as I see it.

Have you seen the Klippel of the KEF Reference woofers? Quite good. I'd rather own a SS Illuminator, but not bad nonetheless!

Anyway, 6.5k is far too costly for the 201/2, IMO. It is too SPL limited (down low) for that price... One 6.5" LF driver and low sensitivity to boot? Jeff B's Continuum has a very tight tolerance and it's more sensitive than the 201/2. I'm not saying the continuum is a better loudspeaker than the 201/2, but it's a pretty neutral speaker with similar max SPL for $5,000 cheaper..

For 6.5K I'm thinking LSR6332 surround setup.

My entire HT room is going to cost me about 8.5k. My HT room will cost just a little bit more than your KEF 201/2, ADTG.

That includes the following:

• Carpeting the room
• Air conditioning unit
• Emotiva XPR-5
• $1,500 refurbished AVR (probably the Yamaha 3000 or Denon 4520) for use as processor.
• Custom rear and center channel speakers
• Ebson 8350 Projector
• Screen for use with projector
• Couch and powered reclining chairs.
• Room treatments
• New garage door

This does not include the ~7K I've spent (or will spend in the coming months in the case of custom speakers) on the following:

• Philharmonic 2's
• SR6004
• 2 x JBL W15GTI MKII
• MDF for use with JBL W15GTI MKII
• EP4000
• Custom front speakers build and veneered by Del with digital/electronic xo designed by DM.

It's pretty insane that I've spent/will spend so much money. I still have another 2 JBL W15GTI MKII's I want to build before my HT room is underway (I have to tear out the workbench for added space in the room) and I want to add another 220v 30A line in there.

Hopefully my custom build will turn out well!

Okay, done blathering.

 

[monkish54]

True, but there are only two drivers. The midrange and tweeter are coaxial, so there are only two driver assemblies.

Define driver assemblies?

The tweeter has it's own magnet, pole piece, suspension, voice coil, shorting rings (if used in the tweeter..I imagine they are..), etc. As far as I see it, there are 3 separate drivers in the 201/2--which is why I am critical of it's max SPL.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Who cares how much they weight? The enclosure isn't exactly huge, and since the panels are somewhat small you wouldn't need a lot of internal bracing. A few dowels should get the job done. The weight is a plus as far as I see it.

Have you seen the Klippel of the KEF Reference woofers? Quite good. I'd rather own a SS Illuminator, but not bad nonetheless!

Anyway, 6.5k is far too costly for the 201/2, IMO. It is too SPL limited (down low) for that price... One 6.5" LF driver and low sensitivity to boot? Jeff B's Continuum has a very tight tolerance and it's more sensitive than the 201/2. I'm not saying the continuum is a better loudspeaker than the 201/2, but it's a pretty neutral speaker with similar max SPL for $5,000 cheaper..

For 6.5K I'm thinking LSR6332 surround setup.

My entire HT room is going to cost me about 8.5k. My HT room will cost just a little bit more than your KEF 201/2, ADTG.

That includes the following:

• Carpeting the room
• Air conditioning unit
• Emotiva XPR-5
• $1,500 refurbished AVR (probably the Yamaha 3000 or Denon 4520) for use as processor.
• Custom rear and center channel speakers
• Ebson 8350 Projector
• Screen for use with projector
• Couch and powered reclining chairs.
• Room treatments
• New garage door

This does not include the ~7K I've spent (or will spend in the coming months in the case of custom speakers) on the following:

• Philharmonic 2's
• SR6004
• 2 x JBL W15GTI MKII
• MDF for use with JBL W15GTI MKII
• EP4000
• Custom front speakers build and veneered by Del with digital/electronic xo designed by DM.

It's pretty insane that I've spent/will spend so much money. I still have another 2 JBL W15GTI MKII's I want to build before my HT room is underway (I have to tear out the workbench for added space in the room) and I want to add another 220v 30A line in there.

Hopefully my custom build will turn out well!

Okay, done blathering.

I'm at my wife's friend's house. The husband has a theater room. I just checked it out. The room looks really nice. The 6 leather recliners are super nice. The 65" Samsung TV looks nice. And for the sound system....drum rolls......he's got a Yamaha HTIB.

 

[monkish54]

I'm at my wife's friend's house. The husband has a theater room. I just checked it out. The room looks really nice. The 6 leather recliners are super nice. The 65" Samsung TV looks nice. And for the sound system....drum rolls......he's got a Yamaha HTIB.

A piece of my soul just died...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Define driver assemblies?

The tweeter has it's own magnet, pole piece, suspension, voice coil, shorting rings (if used in the tweeter..I imagine they are..), etc. As far as I see it, there are 3 separate drivers in the 201/2--which is why I am critical of it's max SPL.

View attachment 12395

Yeah, I agree there are 3 separate drivers, just implemented differently than non-concentric drivers. And yeah, I would have liked higher sensitivity. But KEF rates the 201/2 at 110dB max SPL. And I don't really listen to THX reference level.

If I did it over, I still wouldn't go w/ any speakers that don't provide measurements. I would go for the 92dB/2.83v/m RBH SX-T1, which turn my 5 SX-1010 into five T2 towers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A piece of my soul just died...

And he's telling the kids to be careful w/ his "surround sound system"

I'm thinking to myself, "I wouldn't even buy my 10 YO daughter that piece of crap system.

Oh, he also has a nice pool table and bar area. And movie posters nicely framed.

But a HTIB.

 

[templemaners]

And he's telling the kids to be careful w/ his "surround sound system"

I'm thinking to myself, "I wouldn't even buy my 10 YO daughter that piece of crap system.

Oh, he also has a nice pool table and bar area. And movie posters nicely framed.

But a HTIB.

Maybe he needs to come over to your place and get a little education/reality check audio wise.

 

[ImcLoud]

I have a customer that has a gorgeous home theater, huge screen and projector, 3 levels of really nice seating {black leather theater seats with a center aisle}, movie posters all down the hall way going to the theater, they have awesome theater lights that say their family name by all the seating, double doors to enter, a little ticket machine, big pop corn machine, they even have a little {24" long} candy counter with all theater candy in it. One of the most impressive theaters I ever seen, so much detail and thought went into it...{They are a very successful gay couple, the nicest people you ever meet but they are so anal about everything being perfect, when I installed their dual RU98i tankless hot water system, one of the units had the efficiency sticker on a little crooked, they asked if I could straiten it, so I took them off both units, and after I did they came down with some goo gone to make sure all the glue was off}... But anyway, when I looked at the sound system it was an Onkyo with an 8" subwoofer!!!

I told them , that was not rite and there should be laws against doing that. But they said it sounds fine, and the bass is REALLY loud, they had to turn it down!!!!