thank you for the comments. Again, it is all speculative until we have had a chance to listen to them.
i would consider measurements to be 1/2 of the equation. is it not true, that the corvette z06 measures extremely well? superb acceleration, brakes, skidpad tests, yet many "expert" reviewers deem it has some lacking qualities, like road feel and handling perception? it does not inspire confidence at the limits of tire adhesion like other cars do. how do you measure confidence, or easy of handling? or how the car transmits road feel to the driver?
Easy, you compare it to other cars, which have been objectively and subjectively measured, ideally, during the same testing session. Then there is also the argument to be made that acoustic memory is much different than something that pulls on multiple senses at the same time, rather than a single sense. They both share the emotional aspect, but the fact that the whole process of reviewing a car has a very active aspect to it along with multiple sense being piqued all at the same time and in a very strong manner (i.e. the possibility of serious injury or death makes it a much stronger, more accurate memory than the passive act of listening.
again, speakers are in the same vein as cars. there is an objective quality as well as a subjective one. you can measure speakers all day long and yet find that what you desire may not be the one that measures flattest ( yes, heresy, but let me continue) even when the flat frequency response is deemed a design goal?
having said that, it may also be true that a very uneven frequency plot will likely not sound great either. it is again, up to the ear and not the microphone to make the final call.
Given the narrow criteria you've given (no offense meant) yes they fit very closely to each other. Trying to build a product that meets certain criteria at a given price point.
No is arguing that everyone should prefer a speaker with the flattest response curve. Hey, if you happen to like a speaker that doesn't accurately produce sounds then power to ya. However, having the measurements lets you know what it is that you prefer and don't prefer. Without measurements you're just shooting blind in an ocean of speakers. Having measurements helps ensure you don't waste your time trying out things that you know for a fact you won't like and for those that do prefer accurate sound, they will gravitate towards the ones with the flattest frequency response.
I don't recall anyone claiming, in this thread, that all speakers with a similar FR will sound the same. It is merely the metric in which you can weed out speakers you know you won't like based on your own personal tastes (be that accurate sound or not).
my point, is that several seasoned veterans here have commented that they DON'T NEED to listen to them to know that they are bad. that is a presumptuous comment to make (based of course on their vast amount of experience and knowledge) . how can you know until you have listened to them???
I don't find it presumptuous, but I know where they are coming from. They have certain things they look for in a speaker's performance and based on physics, the odds of the Pendragon meeting those criteria are extremely thin. That's not opinion, it is fact based in science. Now, could these speakers turn out much better than they think they will? Sure. Will they be the flattest speakers in their respective price range? Probably not. Some will like them, some will not. If you are familiar enough with the science of loudspeaker design, and you have pinned down exactly what you like in a loudspeaker, then no it is not presumptuous to say that they will be horrible (although it should be said they will sound horrible to them specifically and not all people).
the same criticism applied here as the Dr. Barry Marshall example. Criticism based upon preconceived knowledge, experience, impressions vs looking at the data and having an open mind.
If the science of sound and acoustics were so well defined and cut and dried, vs the unfathomable design of the human body, then wouldn't all highend speakers use the SAME design? SAME tuning? SAME driver? Same technology?
NO they would not use the SAME of all the things you listed above. Just because we know what is the most desirable does not mean that a singular design is capable of all those things. You must choose the things you want your speaker to be good or great at and know that other things will suffer because of it. If you were familiar with loudspeaker design this would make perfect sense to you.
Again, the example you gave is not entirely valid. I explained why before and my response directly above this goes a bit further to disprove the connection.
Yet, just a quick perusal in the hifi journals will demonstrate the highend speakers are as different as fingerprints are.
Clearly, there are many different ways to achieve a reliable good sounding speaker. All I am saying, is give it a chance with an open mind before you have declared based on the design on paper, that something is good or crap.
Hifi journals generally aren't the best measure for objective opinions. They serve their purpose and have their strengths, but being completely objective when the companies in question have shelled out big money to have their speakers reviewed (and who also probably bought advertising space) doesn't exactly make sense.
Yes there are. All will have their tradeoffs, but at least we KNOW what we are shooting for and how to achieve it, just not everything at once.
as for acoustic memory, she is indeed an unfaithful mistress. don't trust her!! However, in lieu of dragging my speakers over to the demo, i will have to use that as well.
one idea: why don't we use recordings of common sounds in our homes? use a high quality digital recorder to record familiar sounds? door closing. toilet flushing, your hands clapping, a sneeze, the timer on the microwave, the sound of the wife's footsteps over the hardwood floor? Your wife's voice recording a phrase. then play them back on the speakers? if the sound is similar, we have a winner!!
Of course the sound is familiar. All those sounds have an emotional aspect that far outweighs the actual "sound" of the noise. The exact memory of what you heard is like a sharp rock sitting in the desert. Given time, the sharpness will fade and you will only be left with the vague remnants of what you think you remembered. Except that in terms of acoustic memory, this all happens in the span seconds or tenths of seconds.
i agree that music has so MANY emotional ties, that it is NOT a good or very reliable source to test speakers with. Test tones aren't fun either, but it seems that a NON music source may be the best option. plus it's easily reproduceable. Hard to get Eric Clapton come to my living room to demo my speakers against!
Not at all. When it comes to spending your own money what you hear is the bottom line. I've never said anything different. However, without the objective stuff I'm not going to go out of my way to hear a pair of speakers when I know I prefer accurate sound. YMMV