tekton - the next big thing?

[psbfan9]

And, another thread goes to hell in a biscuit. Or basket, what ever you prefer.

 

[fuzz092888]

And, another thread goes to hell in a biscuit. Or basket, what ever you prefer.

I prefer biscuit. You can't eat a basket. Unless the basket is made from biscuit.

 

[psbfan9]

I have eaten biscuits that have been basket like baked by bastard bakers.

Now I want gravy. And a pair of Tekton speakers. I hear they're the next big thing.

 

[templemaners]

Now I want gravy. And a pair of Tekton speakers. I hear they're the next big thing.

Make sure you get the crossover upgrade. They don't truly shine without that.

 

[cpp]

I have eaten biscuits that have been basket like baked by bastard bakers.

Now I want gravy. And a pair of Tekton speakers. I hear they're the next big thing.

Biscuits compared to speakers, that's a first for me. I like good old fashion southern biscuits which must means I (not my wife) likes good old fashion speakers, I guess

 

[jonnythan]

Now I want gravy. And a pair of Tekton speakers. I hear they're the next big thing.

They're not the next big thing. Really, they're not. Their product line is anemic and there's nothing there to appeal to the masses. There's zero reason to think they will be a big thing.

 

[freeflap]

a very interesting thread. LOT's of opinions LOT's of Conjecture, but frankly little in terms of Actual hands on listening / measurements.

I have not heard them either, but given the several GLOWING reviews, it's hard not to give them a decent audition. I plan on arranging a listening test soon. someone near me in washington DC has a pair.

a couple comments to consider:
1. these are NOT the only 10" and 1" combinations on the market. The craig chase SHO10 use a similar setup.

2. designs do not always look good on paper, that wind up being very good designs in real life. Take the Porsche 911. A stupid design. Rear Engine? Uneven weight bias? Yet is still considered a world class supercar that only gets better with age.

3. Unless you have the product in hand, it is premature to make conclusive statements as to the validity or fallacy of a product.

example:
Dr. Barry Marshall. Gastroenterologist. Studied the behavior of peptic ulcer disease. Up to the 1980's it was widely believed in the science of medicine, that spicy foods, stress, acidic foods caused stomach ulcers. Dr. Marshall looked at the ulcer biopsies and found a curious common bacteria was present in almost all cases. He presented his theory that all peptic ulcers were caused by an infection, H. Pylori, and NOT acidic, spicy foods.

when he presented his data, he was laughed at. ridiculed. he actually LOST his job given how embarrassing such a claim was. ALL THE SCIENTISTS WITH DECADES MORE EXPERIENCE claimed he was an idiot and a fool. etc.....

however, as time progressed, he was proven..... RIGHT. In 2005, 25 years after he made his ridiculous claim, Dr. Marshall was awarded the Nobel prize in medicine for his discovery. He rewrote the science of peptic ulcer disease and proved all his critics, who had vastly more experience than him, were WRONG.

----

My point is that although we should ALWAYS remain skeptical, as there are so many examples of crap out there, we should also retain an open mind and approach each new speaker, amp, etc... with an unbiased opinion as possible until we have the chance to listen to them.

You never know who will be the next Barry Marshall.

 

[fuzz092888]

a very interesting thread. LOT's of opinions LOT's of Conjecture, but frankly little in terms of Actual hands on listening / measurements.

Which is what we're asking for , well more measurements than subjective impressions. There seem to be an abundance of the latter and not enough former.

I have not heard them either, but given the several GLOWING reviews, it's hard not to give them a decent audition. I plan on arranging a listening test soon. someone near me in washington DC has a pair.

I'm sure any of us, the hardcore detractors included would be interested in an audition if it were possible.

The only thing I can say about your audition is, don't get caught up with the emotional rush you get when auditioning them. The excitement, combined with content that may lend itself to the strengths of the speaker would just be another subjective opinion to throw on the pile. The other issue at hand is that you'll be comparing these speakers against acoustic memory, which is unreliable at best.

Enjoy yourself, but understand the limitations of your audition. If objective measurements were available for the speakers in question, your subjective opinions would be much more useful, because it would give us a reference point for comparing the speakers and your opinion against other speakers that are known to be very good and very bad.

Also, has a pair of what exactly? You did not specify model unless I missed it.

a couple comments to consider:
1. these are NOT the only 10" and 1" combinations on the market. The craig chase SHO10 use a similar setup.

Your point isn't valid, since most of the negative discussion has been about the pen dragons.

2. designs do not always look good on paper, that wind up being very good designs in real life. Take the Porsche 911. A stupid design. Rear Engine? Uneven weight bias? Yet is still considered a world class supercar that only gets better with age.

From my own point of view, my issue isn't with the design, but with the lack of information. From what we're given, it appears to be a poor design. Given more information about development and implementation of the features that were utilized there would probably be a much more positive reaction. The Pendragon also appears to utilize design features that are known to be poor together, so without the additional information, we are left with no other alternative but to try and some to terms with something we know to be poor (unless it is implemented in some new and innovative way, again no information to the contrary) and the subjective positive reviews (which don't mean a whole lot because they're.............subjective).

3. Unless you have the product in hand, it is premature to make conclusive statements as to the validity or fallacy of a product.

I agree that conclusive statements may be premature, but drawing educated conclusions based on physics isn't premature at all. We're still awaiting objective data to the contrary, which may be the case, but until we see it, those conclusions are completely valid. They're not things some of the guys are pulling out of their rear ends, they're things that have been learned over years of loudspeaker design and implementation study, and by extension acoustical theory.

example:
Dr. Barry Marshall. Gastroenterologist. Studied the behavior of peptic ulcer disease. Up to the 1980's it was widely believed in the science of medicine, that spicy foods, stress, acidic foods caused stomach ulcers. Dr. Marshall looked at the ulcer biopsies and found a curious common bacteria was present in almost all cases. He presented his theory that all peptic ulcers were caused by an infection, H. Pylori, and NOT acidic, spicy foods.

when he presented his data, he was laughed at. ridiculed. he actually LOST his job given how embarrassing such a claim was. ALL THE SCIENTISTS WITH DECADES MORE EXPERIENCE claimed he was an idiot and a fool. etc.....

however, as time progressed, he was proven..... RIGHT. In 2005, 25 years after he made his ridiculous claim, Dr. Marshall was awarded the Nobel prize in medicine for his discovery. He rewrote the science of peptic ulcer disease and proved all his critics, who had vastly more experience than him, were WRONG.

----

My point is that although we should ALWAYS remain skeptical, as there are so many examples of crap out there, we should also retain an open mind and approach each new speaker, amp, etc... with an unbiased opinion as possible until we have the chance to listen to them.

You never know who will be the next Barry Marshall.

Interesting example, but the field of medicine and the way sound travels from a source (be it point, line, etc) is a lot better understood than the human body and all its intricacies and variability. I don't consider the two equivalent, IMHO.

 

[freeflap]

thank you for the comments. Again, it is all speculative until we have had a chance to listen to them.

i would consider measurements to be 1/2 of the equation. is it not true, that the corvette z06 measures extremely well? superb acceleration, brakes, skidpad tests, yet many "expert" reviewers deem it has some lacking qualities, like road feel and handling perception? it does not inspire confidence at the limits of tire adhesion like other cars do. how do you measure confidence, or easy of handling? or how the car transmits road feel to the driver?

again, speakers are in the same vein as cars. there is an objective quality as well as a subjective one. you can measure speakers all day long and yet find that what you desire may not be the one that measures flattest ( yes, heresy, but let me continue) even when the flat frequency response is deemed a design goal?

having said that, it may also be true that a very uneven frequency plot will likely not sound great either. it is again, up to the ear and not the microphone to make the final call.

my point, is that several seasoned veterans here have commented that they DON'T NEED to listen to them to know that they are bad. that is a presumptuous comment to make (based of course on their vast amount of experience and knowledge) . how can you know until you have listened to them???

the same criticism applied here as the Dr. Barry Marshall example. Criticism based upon preconceived knowledge, experience, impressions vs looking at the data and having an open mind.

If the science of sound and acoustics were so well defined and cut and dried, vs the unfathomable design of the human body, then wouldn't all highend speakers use the SAME design? SAME tuning? SAME driver? Same technology?

Yet, just a quick perusal in the hifi journals will demonstrate the highend speakers are as different as fingerprints are.

Clearly, there are many different ways to achieve a reliable good sounding speaker. All I am saying, is give it a chance with an open mind before you have declared based on the design on paper, that something is good or crap.


as for acoustic memory, she is indeed an unfaithful mistress. don't trust her!! However, in lieu of dragging my speakers over to the demo, i will have to use that as well.

one idea: why don't we use recordings of common sounds in our homes? use a high quality digital recorder to record familiar sounds? door closing. toilet flushing, your hands clapping, a sneeze, the timer on the microwave, the sound of the wife's footsteps over the hardwood floor? Your wife's voice recording a phrase. then play them back on the speakers? if the sound is similar, we have a winner!!

i agree that music has so MANY emotional ties, that it is NOT a good or very reliable source to test speakers with. Test tones aren't fun either, but it seems that a NON music source may be the best option. plus it's easily reproduceable. Hard to get Eric Clapton come to my living room to demo my speakers against!


peace.

 

[fuzz092888]

thank you for the comments. Again, it is all speculative until we have had a chance to listen to them.

i would consider measurements to be 1/2 of the equation. is it not true, that the corvette z06 measures extremely well? superb acceleration, brakes, skidpad tests, yet many "expert" reviewers deem it has some lacking qualities, like road feel and handling perception? it does not inspire confidence at the limits of tire adhesion like other cars do. how do you measure confidence, or easy of handling? or how the car transmits road feel to the driver?

Easy, you compare it to other cars, which have been objectively and subjectively measured, ideally, during the same testing session. Then there is also the argument to be made that acoustic memory is much different than something that pulls on multiple senses at the same time, rather than a single sense. They both share the emotional aspect, but the fact that the whole process of reviewing a car has a very active aspect to it along with multiple sense being piqued all at the same time and in a very strong manner (i.e. the possibility of serious injury or death makes it a much stronger, more accurate memory than the passive act of listening.

again, speakers are in the same vein as cars. there is an objective quality as well as a subjective one. you can measure speakers all day long and yet find that what you desire may not be the one that measures flattest ( yes, heresy, but let me continue) even when the flat frequency response is deemed a design goal?

having said that, it may also be true that a very uneven frequency plot will likely not sound great either. it is again, up to the ear and not the microphone to make the final call.

Given the narrow criteria you've given (no offense meant) yes they fit very closely to each other. Trying to build a product that meets certain criteria at a given price point.

No is arguing that everyone should prefer a speaker with the flattest response curve. Hey, if you happen to like a speaker that doesn't accurately produce sounds then power to ya. However, having the measurements lets you know what it is that you prefer and don't prefer. Without measurements you're just shooting blind in an ocean of speakers. Having measurements helps ensure you don't waste your time trying out things that you know for a fact you won't like and for those that do prefer accurate sound, they will gravitate towards the ones with the flattest frequency response.

I don't recall anyone claiming, in this thread, that all speakers with a similar FR will sound the same. It is merely the metric in which you can weed out speakers you know you won't like based on your own personal tastes (be that accurate sound or not).

my point, is that several seasoned veterans here have commented that they DON'T NEED to listen to them to know that they are bad. that is a presumptuous comment to make (based of course on their vast amount of experience and knowledge) . how can you know until you have listened to them???

I don't find it presumptuous, but I know where they are coming from. They have certain things they look for in a speaker's performance and based on physics, the odds of the Pendragon meeting those criteria are extremely thin. That's not opinion, it is fact based in science. Now, could these speakers turn out much better than they think they will? Sure. Will they be the flattest speakers in their respective price range? Probably not. Some will like them, some will not. If you are familiar enough with the science of loudspeaker design, and you have pinned down exactly what you like in a loudspeaker, then no it is not presumptuous to say that they will be horrible (although it should be said they will sound horrible to them specifically and not all people).

the same criticism applied here as the Dr. Barry Marshall example. Criticism based upon preconceived knowledge, experience, impressions vs looking at the data and having an open mind.

If the science of sound and acoustics were so well defined and cut and dried, vs the unfathomable design of the human body, then wouldn't all highend speakers use the SAME design? SAME tuning? SAME driver? Same technology?

NO they would not use the SAME of all the things you listed above. Just because we know what is the most desirable does not mean that a singular design is capable of all those things. You must choose the things you want your speaker to be good or great at and know that other things will suffer because of it. If you were familiar with loudspeaker design this would make perfect sense to you.

Again, the example you gave is not entirely valid. I explained why before and my response directly above this goes a bit further to disprove the connection.

Yet, just a quick perusal in the hifi journals will demonstrate the highend speakers are as different as fingerprints are.

Clearly, there are many different ways to achieve a reliable good sounding speaker. All I am saying, is give it a chance with an open mind before you have declared based on the design on paper, that something is good or crap.

Hifi journals generally aren't the best measure for objective opinions. They serve their purpose and have their strengths, but being completely objective when the companies in question have shelled out big money to have their speakers reviewed (and who also probably bought advertising space) doesn't exactly make sense.

Yes there are. All will have their tradeoffs, but at least we KNOW what we are shooting for and how to achieve it, just not everything at once.

as for acoustic memory, she is indeed an unfaithful mistress. don't trust her!! However, in lieu of dragging my speakers over to the demo, i will have to use that as well.

one idea: why don't we use recordings of common sounds in our homes? use a high quality digital recorder to record familiar sounds? door closing. toilet flushing, your hands clapping, a sneeze, the timer on the microwave, the sound of the wife's footsteps over the hardwood floor? Your wife's voice recording a phrase. then play them back on the speakers? if the sound is similar, we have a winner!!

Of course the sound is familiar. All those sounds have an emotional aspect that far outweighs the actual "sound" of the noise. The exact memory of what you heard is like a sharp rock sitting in the desert. Given time, the sharpness will fade and you will only be left with the vague remnants of what you think you remembered. Except that in terms of acoustic memory, this all happens in the span seconds or tenths of seconds.

i agree that music has so MANY emotional ties, that it is NOT a good or very reliable source to test speakers with. Test tones aren't fun either, but it seems that a NON music source may be the best option. plus it's easily reproduceable. Hard to get Eric Clapton come to my living room to demo my speakers against!

Not at all. When it comes to spending your own money what you hear is the bottom line. I've never said anything different. However, without the objective stuff I'm not going to go out of my way to hear a pair of speakers when I know I prefer accurate sound. YMMV

 

[ImcLoud]

Easy, you compare it to other cars, which have been objectively and subjectively measured, ideally, during the same testing session. Then there is also the argument to be made that acoustic memory is much different than something that pulls on multiple senses at the same time, rather than a single sense. They both share the emotional aspect, but the fact that the whole process of reviewing a car has a very active aspect to it along with multiple sense being piqued all at the same time and in a very strong manner (i.e. the possibility of serious injury or death makes it a much stronger, more accurate memory than the passive act of listening.



Given the narrow criteria you've given (no offense meant) yes they fit very closely to each other. Trying to build a product that meets certain criteria at a given price point.

No is arguing that everyone should prefer a speaker with the flattest response curve. Hey, if you happen to like a speaker that doesn't accurately produce sounds then power to ya. However, having the measurements lets you know what it is that you prefer and don't prefer. Without measurements you're just shooting blind in an ocean of speakers. Having measurements helps ensure you don't waste your time trying out things that you know for a fact you won't like and for those that do prefer accurate sound, they will gravitate towards the ones with the flattest frequency response.

I don't recall anyone claiming, in this thread, that all speakers with a similar FR will sound the same. It is merely the metric in which you can weed out speakers you know you won't like based on your own personal tastes (be that accurate sound or not).



I don't find it presumptuous, but I know where they are coming from. They have certain things they look for in a speaker's performance and based on physics, the odds of the Pendragon meeting those criteria are extremely thin. That's not opinion, it is fact based in science. Now, could these speakers turn out much better than they think they will? Sure. Will they be the flattest speakers in their respective price range? Probably not. Some will like them, some will not. If you are familiar enough with the science of loudspeaker design, and you have pinned down exactly what you like in a loudspeaker, then no it is not presumptuous to say that they will be horrible (although it should be said they will sound horrible to them specifically and not all people).



NO they would not use the SAME of all the things you listed above. Just because we know what is the most desirable does not mean that a singular design is capable of all those things. You must choose the things you want your speaker to be good or great at and know that other things will suffer because of it. If you were familiar with loudspeaker design this would make perfect sense to you.

Again, the example you gave is not entirely valid. I explained why before and my response directly above this goes a bit further to disprove the connection.



Hifi journals generally aren't the best measure for objective opinions. They serve their purpose and have their strengths, but being completely objective when the companies in question have shelled out big money to have their speakers reviewed (and who also probably bought advertising space) doesn't exactly make sense.

Yes there are. All will have their tradeoffs, but at least we KNOW what we are shooting for and how to achieve it, just not everything at once.





Of course the sound is familiar. All those sounds have an emotional aspect that far outweighs the actual "sound" of the noise. The exact memory of what you heard is like a sharp rock sitting in the desert. Given time, the sharpness will fade and you will only be left with the vague remnants of what you think you remembered. Except that in terms of acoustic memory, this all happens in the span seconds or tenths of seconds.



Not at all. When it comes to spending your own money what you hear is the bottom line. I've never said anything different. However, without the objective stuff I'm not going to go out of my way to hear a pair of speakers when I know I prefer accurate sound. YMMV

Oh my god, Fuzz, I hate when you do this.... The inside a quote anal-ization of someone else post... It drives me bat **** crazy.... Just quote his entire post, and put "You suck" under it, make life sooo much easier for me..

 

[fuzz092888]

Oh my god, Fuzz, I hate when you do this.... The inside a quote anal-ization of someone else post... It drives me bat **** crazy.... Just quote his entire post, and put "You suck" under it, make life sooo much easier for me..

Don't worry, once school is over I'll have a lot less time to do stuff like that

 

[ImcLoud]

Don't worry, once school is over I'll have a lot less time to do stuff like that

LOL, me too, once my shoulder is back in action, I will prolly hardly be on here..

 

[fuzz092888]

LOL, me too, once my shoulder is back in action, I will prolly hardly be on here..

Well hopefully PT will be over as well not long after school so I'll be back to checking this once a day. Man I hate PT. Not so much for the going, but because it reminds me how much I've lost.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

a very interesting thread. LOT's of opinions LOT's of Conjecture, but frankly little in terms of Actual hands on listening / measurements.

I have not heard them either, but given the several GLOWING reviews, it's hard not to give them a decent audition. I plan on arranging a listening test soon. someone near me in washington DC has a pair.

a couple comments to consider:
1. these are NOT the only 10" and 1" combinations on the market. The craig chase SHO10 use a similar setup.

2. designs do not always look good on paper, that wind up being very good designs in real life. Take the Porsche 911. A stupid design. Rear Engine? Uneven weight bias? Yet is still considered a world class supercar that only gets better with age.

3. Unless you have the product in hand, it is premature to make conclusive statements as to the validity or fallacy of a product.

example:
Dr. Barry Marshall. Gastroenterologist. Studied the behavior of peptic ulcer disease. Up to the 1980's it was widely believed in the science of medicine, that spicy foods, stress, acidic foods caused stomach ulcers. Dr. Marshall looked at the ulcer biopsies and found a curious common bacteria was present in almost all cases. He presented his theory that all peptic ulcers were caused by an infection, H. Pylori, and NOT acidic, spicy foods.

when he presented his data, he was laughed at. ridiculed. he actually LOST his job given how embarrassing such a claim was. ALL THE SCIENTISTS WITH DECADES MORE EXPERIENCE claimed he was an idiot and a fool. etc.....

however, as time progressed, he was proven..... RIGHT. In 2005, 25 years after he made his ridiculous claim, Dr. Marshall was awarded the Nobel prize in medicine for his discovery. He rewrote the science of peptic ulcer disease and proved all his critics, who had vastly more experience than him, were WRONG.

----

My point is that although we should ALWAYS remain skeptical, as there are so many examples of crap out there, we should also retain an open mind and approach each new speaker, amp, etc... with an unbiased opinion as possible until we have the chance to listen to them.

You never know who will be the next Barry Marshall.

Hi I would certainly love to hear them as well. I promise not to write anything negative about them. I agree that dismissing a speaker for what is perceived as a design flaw is totally invalid, and it's all in the listening. And you're welcome to stop by Bethesda to hear the Philharmonics for a comparison.

 

[ahblaza]

Well hopefully PT will be over as well not long after school so I'll be back to checking this once a day. Man I hate PT. Not so much for the going, but because it reminds me how much I've lost.

It is a wake up call to finally realize what you had after losing it Lately I feel like I'm a sandwich shy of a picnic

 

[fuzz092888]

It is a wake up call to finally realize what you had after losing it Lately I feel like I'm a sandwich shy of a picnic

You know it. Getting injured is a real b!tch

 

[ahblaza]

You know it. Getting injured is a real b!tch

Not injured, just deteriating, need hip replacement....

 

[ImcLoud]

I can't complain too much, I did it to my self, and I am man enough to admit it, but the repair and healing process is sooooooo long.... My shoulder used to feel like a well lubricated machine, now it feels like someone put grinding compound in there with a hand full of crushed glass for good measure... Makes all kinds of noises, pops, and it feels like I have a second joint in there... I had one of the best surgeons in the country, but he said with such a violent injury to such a large shoulder mechanism he was lucky to be able to fix it, because the weight of the unsupported muscle tissue is contently pulling on the repaired area. He said I have 5 lbs of muscle with leverage re-damaging the repair every time I move it... And I can feel it..

 

[freeflap]

Hi I would certainly love to hear them as well. I promise not to write anything negative about them. I agree that dismissing a speaker for what is perceived as a design flaw is totally invalid, and it's all in the listening. And you're welcome to stop by Bethesda to hear the Philharmonics for a comparison.

thanks for the offer. I am hoping to listen to the pendragons this month. am getting in contact with the seller on audiogon.

i've not heard the philharmonics before. i looked at the website: the woodwork looks fantastic and they do look very well made. are the top and bottom sections separate?

i've been on and off again into audio for the past 25+ years. Have heard apogee scintillas, B&W 801's, Bose 900's ( yes i said it), snells, spendor sp1, ads, DIY speakers, Norh drum speakers ( i own the Norh 7's using scanspeak drivers. still a superb bookshelf speaker) martin logan hybrids, eminent tech planars, maggies, and wilson audio watt / puppies. I have to say that although audio memory may be fleeting and short, some impressions do stay with you long term. it's been 20+ years since i heard the apogee scintillas and I still remember how much i DONT like them!