tekton - the next big thing?

ratso

ratso

Full Audioholic
mundorfs, meh a little too snake-oily for me. i find it more interesting that they are now offering the pendragon with seas drivers to appease the "audiophile" crowd though.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You thinking what I'm thinking Andrew? lol. I'll gladly review and take measurements after auditioning for VERY little. I'm pretty sure I could convince the ol' G/F to make our 4th bedroom an audition room lol. I'm as unbias as they come
When you master the art of speaker measurements, you can come over my house sometime and measure my speakers. :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
We really seem to be descending to drivel.

We have new members who need to do research and be more discriminating.

Those Tektons need a wide berth at over 2K.

So that put a a couple of cheap Eminence woofers in a box running full range either side of three tweeters.

This is the frequency response of those 10" drivers.



Remember these are running full range, so what you see is what you will get.

Clearly those speakers need crossing over at 500 Hz or below.

The next issue is that the Free air resonance is 66 Hz. This sets the lowest limit the speakers can reproduce, in fact it will be a bit higher.

The poor reviewer who gave up his 800 Ds clearly can't tell true bass from a peaked bass. If those speakers appear to have bass they must have a peak north of 66 Hz from improper tuning.

Those speakers are below most "white van" and pure and simple junk.

Don't tell me I should listen to them. I have done this long enough to know exactly how they sound and its called awful.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
We really seem to be descending to drivel.

We have new members who need to do research and be more discriminating.

Those Tektons need a wide berth at over 2K.

So that put a a couple of cheap Eminence woofers in a box running full range either side of three tweeters.

This is the frequency response of those 10" drivers.



Remember these are running full range, so what you see is what you will get.

Clearly those speakers need crossing over at 500 Hz or below.

The next issue is that the Free air resonance is 66 Hz. This sets the lowest limit the speakers can reproduce, in fact it will be a bit higher.

The poor reviewer who gave up his 800 Ds clearly can't tell true bass from a peaked bass. If those speakers appear to have bass they must have a peak north of 66 Hz from improper tuning.

Those speakers are below most "white van" and pure and simple junk.

Don't tell me I should listen to them. I have done this long enough to know exactly how they sound and its called awful.
Man, I'm jealous of you, TLS Guy.

You can dog these speakers and get away with it clean; no one says a word.

But when OUSooner2 and I even HINT at saying anything negative, like no FR graphs and pricing, we get lashed. :eek:

Not fair at all. :D
 
ousooner2

ousooner2

Full Audioholic
That's what I'm sayin'!! I guess because I'm "new" to THIS site, I automatically don't know what I'm talking about and can't voice my opinion :eek:



By the way...VERY anxious to see what our government is going to do about this Libya/Egypt attack. This hasn't been done since 1979 and it resulted in someone almost getting heavily bombed. Hell...the Germans didn't even do it! Anyways, I'm sure they're more worried about bailing out GM....AGAIN.

*end rant* lol
 
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jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
Man, I'm jealous of you, TLS Guy.

You can dog these speakers and get away with it clean; no one says a word.

But when OUSooner2 and I even HINT at saying anything negative, like no FR graphs and pricing, we get lashed. :eek:

Not fair at all. :D
That's because his post contained actual, relevant information.

It's not some conspiracy against you or any new guys. TLS Guy's post was just..... better.
 
whasaaaab

whasaaaab

Junior Audioholic
interview with eric mentions why he went with eminence speakers

A Quick Q&A with Eric Alexander of Tekton Design

Questions by Steve Lefkowicz

PFO - Is Tekton an outgrowth or extension of some other business you are in? Is this now your full time, primary business? Or was it more an extension of audio as a hobby? How long have you at this?

EA - Tekton Design is my entire focus venture at the moment. I do this full-time (10-12 hours daily) and have done since 2005.

Here's a brief explanation from my eBay page: "My passion for audio and speaker building began at a very young age. My grandfather was a carpenter, and when I was 5 years old, he began offering me his wood scraps, along with a hammer and nails, for my experimentation. I got my first taste of electronics in the 6th grade, when my teacher at school let me put my creative energy into the exploration of all kinds of electronic gadgets. At that time, I also embarked on my music career, first learning to play the trumpet, and then transitioning to percussion instruments, which I still play today. My first official loudspeaker debut was at the age of 14, when I spent two solid days designing, building, and painting a pair of speakers for a neighborhood dance party. This was the same time that my hormones were kicking in, and so of course, my endeavors were mostly for impressing the girls. The bonus was the girls (and guys) were impressed, and the speakers really didn't sound half-bad! Obviously, speaker designing and building has been a life-long passion, and has turned into a great career for me."

I have had some type of audio related employment since 1986. I have worked for Kimber Kable, Diaural (based on my patents), Edge Audio (who became Aperion Audio), Soundtube Entertainment (the largest speaker manufacturer in Utah), and now Tekton Design. I have also contributed to many other significant engineering efforts as a consultant and have now have over 50 commercially available loudspeaker models to my credit. My 'Broadbeam' tweeter patent owned by SoundTube Entertainment has now likely sold into the $30 million range to date.

PFO - What was your inspiration for designing speakers? Other brands you admire, or was it more a case of not finding what you wanted in the market already?

EA - I knew I wanted to design audio gear as an early teenager. Live music and I love audio. I am also a past engine builder and I owned a dragster in my early 20's. I literally extrapolated the passion for pushing the envelope forward through motorsport into my audio career. This brief video somewhat explains current design philosophy:

PFO - It seems you have two distinct lines, one based on full range drivers and open baffles, and one based on pro audio drivers and vented boxes. How do you differentiate the two lines? Are they for distinctly different tastes?

EA - Tekton started out selling full-range products. I'm now moving into the phase of offering products I have great faith and personal confidence in.

PFO - Looking specifically at the model Lore, I’m curious about your choice of the Eminence 10 inch driver. It is specified as a bass guitar driver, so how did you decide it was a good choice for high quality home audio in the first place? What led you in that direction?

EA - It was all based on need. I seek out the ideal transducer for my needs. In the past I had many transducers designed to my specs. Eminence has built custom parts for me in the past and I have confidence in their products. However, they are a pro audio manufacture so looks are the last thing on their radar—not too compatible with hi-fi regarding the stunning visuals.

PFO - Looking at retail prices, between the Eminence 10 inch driver and the Audax Gold tweeter, it would seem that almost half the retail price of the Lore is in just the drivers. The cabinets seem quite nicely made, too, so how do you keep your retail price where it is?

EA - You are correct. Over the years in the industry I learned what worked and what didn't work, what I needed to do insure how to be profitable and stay in production in the early phase of this venture.

PFO - All your speakers are very high efficiency. I’m guessing you are a fan of low powered tube amps? I’ve mostly been using a KT88 based amp with the Lore, which runs either 5-watts in triode or 15-watts in pentode mode. What are your favorite amps (or tubes) for your speakers?

EA - Actually, my favorite amps are massive wattage. You can never have too much power. However, I have a real soft spot and passion for tubes. So many of my guitar band mates were so passionate about tube amplification and I knew there must be something of substantial merit there. One of my favorite tube amplifiers is the Mesa Baron—long gone the way of the dodo bird now.

PFO - You seem to be flying under the radar a little bit. Any plans for increased presence in the market? Will you be attending Rocky Mountain Audio Fest or any other Hi-Fi shows in the future? Might we see you in California at T.H.E Show in Newport next summer?

EA - I cannot promise show attendance due to a young family. However, Yes! Tekton is planning big in the future. I have many things in the works here.

anothe great review is foundt at parttimeaudiofile called digging into the pendragons, since this is my first post i cannot paste the link
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's what I'm sayin'!! I guess because I'm "new" to THIS site, I automatically don't know what I'm talking about and can't voice my opinion :eek:
Some people get offended when we talk about the speakers they own.

And then some people just hate and find reasons to hate when you have a lot more than they do or have a better degree or bigger house or better speakers, etc. It makes them feel better. So you may want to use that Ignore List feature for certain people. I have. Works great. :D
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
That's because his post contained actual, relevant information.

It's not some conspiracy against you or any new guys. TLS Guy's post was just..... better.
He did make one mistake. That is not the woofer used in the pendragon. I believe Tekton uses this one. It does dig deeper, fs=35hz, but still pretty lumpy with a big midrange peak.
 
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ousooner2

ousooner2

Full Audioholic
He did make one mistake. That is not the woofer used in the pendragon. I believe Tekton uses this one. It does dig deeper, fs=35hz, but still pretty lumpy with a big midrange peak.
That's the one I was thinking they used also, but the SENS. spec shows 92db, so I wonder how they concluded 98db. Either the xmax/xmech is lower than stated and efficiency increased or maybe a larger motor structure...who knows.

8db swing (in the wrong way lol) from 500-1.5Khz. Hm
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
He did make one mistake. That is not the woofer used in the pendragon. I believe Tekton uses this one. It does dig deeper, fs=35hz, but still pretty lumpy with a big midrange peak.
I doubt it.

The driver you list has a lower sensitivity. If those drivers were on parallel then that would boost the sensitivity, but then they could not claim 8 ohm impedance. This driver is only available as 8 ohm.

The driver I quoted is available in eight and 16 ohm versions. I would bet that there are two of the 16 ohm speakers in parallel and then the sensitivities match.

Anyhow, the reference sensitivity at 500 Hz, which one takes as the benchmark, as it is in the middle of the power range, still shows it peaking 6db above that reference as the cone breaks up. So either way it will not sound good.

They are similar speakers and this one has a lower sensitivity than the one that matches the Tektron speaker in question because it does have a lower F3.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Remember these are running full range, so what you see is what you will get.

Clearly those speakers need crossing over at 500 Hz or below.
He did make one mistake. That is not the woofer used in the pendragon. I believe Tekton uses this one. It does dig deeper, fs=35hz, but still pretty lumpy with a big midrange peak.
Without knowing any details of the Pendragon design provided by the manufacturer, I'm going to assume this is a 2-way speaker with two 10" guitar/PA type drivers and three 1" ring radiator-type tweeters.

I have never heard of any decent 2-way home audio speaker with 10" woofers and 1" tweeters.

It doesn't really matter which Eminence 10" drivers are used. Neither one will make a decent sounding 2-way speaker. Especially if the 10" drivers try to cover the mid range.

10" drivers running full range may be fine for guitar amps, but not for hifi :eek: :eek: :eek:. There is likely to be cone break up or resonant noise in the upper frequency range as low as 500 Hz and certainly above 1000 Hz. The graph TLS Guy provided clearly shows that. A FR graph may show how loud that sounds, but it doesn't indicate how ugly or distorted that sound might be. That's what low-pass filters were made for.

Even if we assume there is no ugly noise in the upper frequency range of the bass driver, it still will combine poorly with 1" tweeters in a 2-way speaker. There will be a giant off-axis hole in the mid range response. Any cone driver broadcasts sound widely as long as the sound wavelengths are larger than the cone diameter. As sound wavelengths approach the cone diameter, the sound begins to beam, and off-axis sound falls off significantly. It's like comparing light from a bare light bulb to light from a spotlight. Spotlights may be good as flashlights but beaming drivers make for poor home audio speakers.

Because of the good possibility of unwanted noise from 10" drivers trying to do mid range, because 10" drivers project mid range frequencies in a narrow beam, and because few 1" tweeters do well playing as low as 500 Hz, this speaker should be at least a 3-way.
 
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ousooner2

ousooner2

Full Audioholic
Wait so you mean that

- Beaming is bad?
- It's not ideal for a 10" to cover all the way up into the lower midrange?
- Multiple mediocre drivers don't make 1 good one?

I'm confused. :D
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Wait so you mean that

- Beaming is bad?
- It's not ideal for a 10" to cover all the way up into the lower midrange?
- Multiple mediocre drivers don't make 1 good one?

I'm confused. :D
It will sound terrible – unless you add oil-filled silver capacitors :rolleyes: ;) :D.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Spotlights may be good as flashlights but beaming drivers make for poor home audio speakers.
While for the I agree with your post, I wouldn't be that quick to judge a speaker based on the sheer width of its off-axis response. The smoothness - yes - a 1" tweeter will cause a flare in off axis response trying to mate to a 10" woofer. But things change if that 1" tweeter isn't splashing sound around the room.

But there are some pretty good speakers out there using larger drivers high in frequency - AJ's Soundfield 1812, Gedlee Abbey, Audiokinesis Planetarium, Vapor Arcus. And there are also some pretty good large panel speakers out there like that are pretty beamy (although they can have a lot of destructive interference as they basically become arrays)

Beaming done right isn't necessarily bad - IE LeCleac'h horns.

What is wrong, is a speaker to beam, and then randomly "flare" off-axis in the critical 200hz to 8khz range.
 
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D

daxriggs

Enthusiast
I've had a pair of the Pendragons for about 4 months now and I am more than happy with them. I am thinking about getting the Mundorf silver in oil upgrade though, to see what I might be missing. It seems a lot of people haven't head them yet. If you want to hear them for yourself and don't mind making the drive I live in the Baton Rouge, LA area. I'll be more than happy to audition them to someone interested.
 
ousooner2

ousooner2

Full Audioholic
Wish I was closer so I could have a listen! I might be in New Orleans sometime soon so I might shoot you a PM
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I think he was talking about the cost of drivers vs the final product. Philharmonic is probably one of the exceptions. But, he did just raise the price so he has a little better margins (granted some is eaten up on the cabs).

But, I haven't seen any advertising so that can at least be taken out of the equation.
If by little better margins you mean he now makes $100 per pair instead of $50......:p;)

Don't forget the $50 per pair that gets donated as well.

Also there are some advertising costs. Mainly the cost of the new website and the money he spends on going to CAF. It's obviously not as much as other companies, but it's not nothing either.

Just an FYI :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
While for the I agree with your post, I wouldn't be that quick to judge a speaker based on the sheer width of its off-axis response. The smoothness - yes - a 1" tweeter will cause a flare in off axis response trying to mate to a 10" woofer. But things change if that 1" tweeter isn't splashing sound around the room.

But there are some pretty good speakers out there using larger drivers high in frequency - AJ's Soundfield 1812, Gedlee Abbey, Audiokinesis Planetarium, Vapor Arcus. And there are also some pretty good large panel speakers out there like that are pretty beamy (although they can have a lot of destructive interference as they basically become arrays)

Beaming done right isn't necessarily bad - IE LeCleac'h horns.

What is wrong, is a speaker to beam, and then randomly "flare" off-axis in the critical 200hz to 8khz range.
Yes, but the beaming of those speakers is because of uncontrolled cone break up and that's nasty.

This thread has had a lot of attention. I think this is because of the endless attraction of something for nothing.

It is understandable in these hard pressed economic times that people are looking for lower budget items.

As usual this thread highlights that there is eternal frustration with speakers.

So it is a good time to examine the issues, which relate to the inter related confounding variables that bedevil the loudspeaker designer.

Understandably of late their is a desire for high sensitivity speakers, to stretch the limitations of receiver amplifiers and avoid the expense of external amplification.

First we need to clear up again confusion over sensitivity and and efficiency.

Sensitivity of a speaker is the db level on axis at 1 meter, either with a drive of 1 watt or 2.42 volts. For an 8 ohm speaker the number will be the same, for a four ohm speaker the sensitivity will be 3 db higher for the 2.42 volt spec versus the 1 watt spec, and the four ohm speaker will draw twice the power of the 8 ohm speaker.

Now, the above measurement tell you nothing about the power delivered into the room.

Now lets take a speaker that really beams. Pretty much all of its power will be on axis. Now lets take a speaker of the same sensitivity but with wide dispersion. The latter speaker will deliver much more power into the room and be much more efficient than the speaker that beams even though they have the same sensitivity. The latter speaker will be more frugal of amp power.

So when considering sensitivity specs you must understand how it is specified. Manufacturers always conceal the sensitivity loss of four ohm speaker by specifying 1 meter with 2.42 volt five rather than 1 watt 1 meter.

You must also have an eye on the dispersion characteristics of the speaker, to get an idea of the power the speaker will deliver to the room.

The next issue is that as a cone break up the speaker generally has a peaking response. This raises the sensitivity rating by virtue of the peak and beaming.

The designer of the speaker in question has driven the 10" paper drivers through their break up zone, when he should not have.

For a speaker to have a balanced pleasing sound in room it needs to have its off axis response mirror the on axis response but with some HF roll off on axis.

Other issues that cause speakers to run receivers into trouble include impedance drops in the power band, especially when coupled with adverse phase angles between voltage and current.

Unfortunately few manufacturers supply the impedance and phase angles of their speakers. Worse many and may be most outright lie about the impedance of their speakers.

Now high sensitivity is a laudable goal as it not only conserves amplifier power, but reduces voice coil heating, and therefore thermal compression and driver failure.

Unfortunately this is where a confounding variable rears its head. There is an inverse relationship between flux density and therefore sensitivity and bass extension.

Now the above and other factors in modern speaker design has made thermal compression a much bigger problem than it was previously.

The complaints about mushy ill defined mid range voiced in this thread and others, are due I believe in the vast majority of "affordable" speakers being awash in thermal compression.

In order to minimize reflections and improve imaging cabinets have become narrower and drivers commensurately smaller. This results in a need to boost the lower frequencies progressively below the point where a speaker transitions from a half space to a full space radiator. This occurs at a higher frequency as the cabinet is narrowed. This is the baffle step response and requires compensation, called BSC.

So it is typical for a speaker I described for the baffle step response to kick in at 600 Hz, so the power has to be boosted by 6 db at 300 Hz, 12 db at 150 Hz and 18 db at 75 Hz. Now remember that for every 3db increase you have to double the power drive.

So, is it any wonder the voice coils heat. Heat builds by the square of the current not in linear fashion. This is especially true in the HT environment and especially aggravated by the limited dynamic range of the current pop culture. The voice coils can't get a break.

This heating pushes voice coil resistance through the roof, cutting power and upsetting the response as the crossovers can only be designed for one impedance, not a range.

Just consider the heat a 40 watt light bulb generates and you see the problem. At 1000 watt drive you have a toaster or electric fire in the voice coil gap.

Designing drivers that mitigate thermal compression is formidable feat of precision engineering and I don't see it appearing in budget speakers any time soon.

We really need a good alternative to the moving coil driver. Unfortunately I don't see one on the horizon. I don't see any easy way out of the confounding variables imposed by the physics of these drivers either.

We have not even got to the problems of crossovers and cabinet tuning and design, but its getting late.

The bottom line is that high performance speakers are likely to remain very expensive items for the foreseeable future.

There just are no simplistic solutions.
 
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