tekton - the next big thing?

[Matt34]

If by little better margins you mean he now makes $100 per pair instead of $50......

Don't forget the $50 per pair that gets donated as well.

Also there are some advertising costs. Mainly the cost of the new website and the money he spends on going to CAF. It's obviously not as much as other companies, but it's not nothing either.

Just an FYI

Dennis just needs to come out with some ecentric speaker cables if he wants "dat der" profit margin to widen.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've had a pair of the Pendragons for about 4 months now and I am more than happy with them. I am thinking about getting the Mundorf silver in oil upgrade though, to see what I might be missing.

if you are 100% happy with them, why do you think anything might be missing?

I have absolutely no desire to change any of my speakers because I think absolutely nothing might be missing. They sound just perfect.

Don't your Pendragon speakers sound perfect?

 

[Swerd]

Excellent points, thanks. I especially like these:

… Now lets take a speaker that really beams. Pretty much all of its power will be on axis. Now lets take a speaker of the same sensitivity but with wide dispersion. The latter speaker will deliver much more power into the room and be much more efficient than the speaker that beams even though they have the same sensitivity. The latter speaker will be more frugal of amp power.

… For a speaker to have a balanced pleasing sound in room, it needs to have its off axis response mirror the on axis response but with some HF roll off on axis.

… The bottom line is that high performance speakers are likely to remain very expensive items for the foreseeable future.

Thirty years ago, big powerful amps cost more than good speakers. Now the opposite is true. Big wattage is cheaper than good wide range speakers.

For that reason, as well as all the reasons TLS Guy discussed so well in the above post, it's worth it to spend the money for a well designed amp with a large power supply. You only have to do this once, as well designed amps tend to last a long time.

 

[ski2xblack]

Swerd at #75 wins 'Best Snark' so far, too funny!

TLS, Grant, et al (the speaker gurus), I have a couple questions. So far, I have based my assumptions on the only other Tekton's I've actually heard (some little single driver fostex jobs; they were inexpensive, and very decent sounding for what they were) and some knowledge of Eric Alexanders other, rather primitive designs. I could be wrong in my assumptions about these larger, more recent creations. It's possible that Tekton adheres to established speaker building principles more closely than I (we) have assumed. Perhaps there are proper networks in the Pendragon, and perhaps those drivers are special order customized for Tekton, I just don't know for sure. My questions are as follows: is it possible that they are better than we are giving them credit for? Would such adherence to basic principles matter given the widely spaced main drivers, and the size differential between them and the tweets? Surely the widely spaced woofers would exhibit interference within their band, even if low passed properly, and there would likely still be a directivity mis-match between woofs and tweets.

Any of you Pendragon owners could shed some light here by poking your head inside your speakers and letting us know what you see. It may help redeem your babys and validate your purchase, or more likely, provide further evidence of their mediocrity. As TLS said, this is getting attention, and it would be nice if it was as fact based as we can make it.

 

[Swerd]

Perhaps there are proper networks in the Pendragon, and perhaps those drivers are special order customized for Tekton, I just don't know for sure.

Those ring radiator tweeters (if I remember correctly) don't operate without serious distortion below the upper 2 kHz range. Let's be generous and assume they can play down to 2500 Hz.

Let's also assume those 10" drivers can be operated as high as 2500 Hz without going into break up. This is quite a lot more than a merely generous assumption, but let's assume it to discuss your question.

Proper crossover networks with steep roll-off curves centered at 2500 Hz would still not address the significant problem of beaming by the 10" woofers. They would probably start beaming at frequencies well below 1000 Hz. This much beaming will have a great impact on off-axis dispersion, stereo imaging, and the impression of a realistic sound stage – all of the things we pay good money for to get in speakers.

Less generous (and more realistic) assumptions lead to only one conclusion. Using these two drivers in a proper speaker design requires a 3-way design with a good mid range driver. And I'm not commenting whether such a 3-way would actually sound good.

Would such adherence to basic principles matter given the widely spaced main drivers, and the size differential between them and the tweets? Surely the widely spaced woofers would exhibit interference within their band, even if low passed properly, and there would likely still be a directivity mis-match between woofs and tweets.

The vertical spacing of these drivers will result in lobing that you can hear as you move up or down, but shouldn't impact horizontal directivity.

But any problems from the driver arrangement on the front baffle will be small compared to the inability of 10" drivers to cover the gap between them and 1" tweeters without beaming break up noise.

 

[Swerd]

Swerd at #75 wins 'Best Snark' so far, too funny!

I think $75 for exotic crossover capacitors is a lot of money. $750 is unthinkable.

I spent less than that for both of my stand alone amplifiers.

 

[whasaaaab]

For sure there customer drivers Eric uses for the pendragons as he mention in his review.

question and answers from the review

PFO - Looking specifically at the model Lore, I’m curious about your choice of the Eminence 10 inch driver. It is specified as a bass guitar driver, so how did you decide it was a good choice for high quality home audio in the first place? What led you in that direction?

EA - It was all based on need. I seek out the ideal transducer for my needs. In the past I had many transducers designed to my specs. Eminence has built custom parts for me in the past and I have confidence in their products. However, they are a pro audio manufacture so looks are the last thing on their radar—not too compatible with hi-fi regarding the stunning visuals


From the reiew of the parttimeaudiophile

A note about measurements and the upper mids. The Eminence drivers used in the Tektons tend to go into breakup in this region (see the Stereophile measurements on the Zu speaker, relevant here because this is the same driver, minus the whizzer cones and phase plug). Eric crosses over to the tweeter array before the measured breakup region, which I suppose limits the drivers to their comfort zone. I’ve noticed no notching or suckouts (not that I necessarily would), but after talking about this specific thing with Eric, it was something he was very aware of and something he designed around.

with erics background in the music industry and speaker industry, awards he won and patents that till this are still being used. why would it be hard to belive he could not make a speaker the way he did with out costings thousnd more dollars but for more affordable audience and play a high degree with speaskers costing thousands more.

another quote from the review on the design

The downside — and frankly, the only downside that I seem able to find — is that this also means that these are not speakers for the detail-freak. I talked to Eric about this, and he gave the verbal equivalent to a shrug. It’s the big flat baffle, he says. Getting more precision (read: detail) out of the drivers would require a lot of tweaking to the speaker’s cabinet. And when I say “a lot” I mean a lot. Something to tune of a couple of grand worth of tweaking. And that really wasn’t where this speaker was supposed to go. Eric also admitted that these drivers might not be as “hi-fi” sounding as some, but I’m on the fence as to whether this is a good or a bad thing

I am no professional but i know good sounding speaker from a bad one, Basically what i am taking from this is if your an audiophile who looks for great detail these might not be for you hence why the seas pendragons were created, the seas have diffferent drivers and tweeters they look waybetter too, "We use audiophile grade dual 8″ transducers and triple ring radiator’s. The result is stunning fidelity and resolution, 95dB SPL efficiency, true 30Hz-30khz linear response, a 4 Ohm final impedance" It looks like it would have better excursion by the looks of the pictures. Now if you want the best of both worlds HT & audio then these are for you.

i will admit the reviews have won me over but i am not happy with the return policy at the momment, also if you have better capacitors just add them why do an upgrade if you know that the speaker will sound even better with them.

I am on half trigger about ordering them to listen too but that restocking fee is holding me off, I ask eric that if i decided to buy a pair after listening to them i would want tp upgrade to a better vaneer and the silveroil mumbo jumbo but would he still charge me a restocking fee sending back just the standard pendragon.The silveroil upgrade i have done reaserch on these and they are costly depending which one you get, apparently from all the reviews i have read they will improve the over all the sound of the speaker.

I am still waiting for a response to that question and if there were other upgrades available. I am %70 HT %30 Music sometimes 60/40 but i do love detail with music so on the fence, Please someone open up your pendragons peak andside take pics of cross overs etc..

 

[whasaaaab]

Mundorf Silver-Oil Capacitor Upgrade…


Tweeter capacitor upgrades available – Mundorf silver in oil capacitor sets. This is an additional cost for new loudspeakers and prior loudspeakers can be retrofitted.
•Pendragon – $750 (US Dollars) for the pair

heres what i found on them
The Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil utilizes an oil-impregnated Silver-metalized Polypropylene wound in a special counter-inductance winding. Basically, two series capacitors are wound together in an opposing configuration essentially countering the majority of the inductance. Couple all this with German precision and we have a “very” good capacitor. This cap is known for its smooth rich yet detailed sound. Tolerance is +/- 7%, max operating temperature is 55 degrees C / 131 degrees F.


Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil MKP 1200VDC – 2% tolerance

Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "The MCap® SUPREME silver/oil is an oil impregnated metallised polyprophylene dielectric capacitor. As the name indicates, high-purity silver is used for the capacitor coating, and the winding is impregnated with a special oil developed in an exhaustive series of experiments and listening tests. Both these features contribute to an even fuller and smoother tonal richness and diversity. Our state-of-the-art metallised polyprophylene foils make it possible to maintain extremely low production tolerances that cannot be achieved with traditional oil/paper capacitor designs. This is also the first time that the benefits of oil-impregnated capacitor design have been successfully combined with the well-known long-term stability of polypropylene foil and internal series wiring for induction-free SUPREME performance. Its lively reproduction of music impresses in particular with its subtly dynamic speed, precision and marked fine detail."

Sound: The M-CAP Supreme Silver/Oil is one of my favourite capacitors! I can only underline what Mundorf states: “…wonderfully spacious and detailed sound reproduction … full and smooth tonal richness and diversity. This capacitor’s ability to bring out the finest nuances and the subtlest distinctions make the music sound more alive and “juicy”, …Wonderfully spacious music reproduction… ”. Music detail and depth throughout from top to bottom. Very smooth and liquid. To exaggerate things: it makes a standard Supreme Cap sound slightly rough!

Yes, exactly what we felt when we first sampled the Supreme Silver/Oil capacitors. The air, bloom and the high-end feel just became more apparent. The cap gives heighten attention to music detail and depth throughout from top to bottom. The music presentation is very smooth and liquid. The only drawback is the extremely long burn-in period and the rollercoaster performance while waiting. To overcome this teething problem, we offer a 100hour, 200hour or 300hour burn-in service for a minimal charge.

Mundorf's advanced winding technology enables the production of induction-free capacitors for wonderfully spacious and detailed sound reproduction. Over the last ten years these properties have made the M-Cap Supreme an international best-seller.

This product is an oil impregnated metallised polyprophylene dielectric capacitor, with the same series wiring as the MCap-Supreme capacitors. As the name indicates, high-purity silver is used for the capacitor coating and the winding is impregnated with a special oil developed in an exhaustive series of experiments and listening tests. Both these features contribute to an even fuller and smoother tonal richness and diversity. This capacitor’s ability to bring out the finest nuances and the most subtle distinctions make the music sound more alive and “juicy”, yet without unnatural emphasis of any individual effects.

State-of-the-art metallised polypropylene foils make it possible to maintain extremely exacting production tolerances. These manufacturing tolerances are one of the key reasons for the wonderfully spacious music reproduction achieved with these capacitors. The long-term capacitance stability of these products is equally important, of course. Without it there is no way to achieve really constant performance. Mundorf are confident that this capacitor once again underlines their long-standing status as one of the leading international innovators in the quality audiophile components field.

Specifications:
•Capacitance: 0.01 - 10 µF
•Dielectric: Polypropylene
•Metallisation: 99.99% Silver
•Dielectric strength: 1200 VDC
•Tolerance: ±2%, typically ±1%
•Loss angle tan d = 0.0002 to 1kHz
•Loss angle tan d = 0.00011 to 10kHz


Again i am no audio professional but i do have a great ear, can someone explain what i just posted with the specifications for the silver oil capacitor

 

[Swerd]

question and answers from the review

PFO - Looking specifically at the model Lore, I’m curious about your choice of the Eminence 10 inch driver. It is specified as a bass guitar driver, so how did you decide it was a good choice for high quality home audio in the first place? What led you in that direction?

EA - It was all based on need. I seek out the ideal transducer for my needs. In the past I had many transducers designed to my specs. Eminence has built custom parts for me in the past and I have confidence in their products. However, they are a pro audio manufacture so looks are the last thing on their radar—not too compatible with hi-fi regarding the stunning visuals

His answer provides no useful information.

From the reiew of the parttimeaudiophile

A note about measurements and the upper mids. The Eminence drivers used in the Tektons tend to go into breakup in this region (see the Stereophile measurements on the Zu speaker, relevant here because this is the same driver, minus the whizzer cones and phase plug). Eric crosses over to the tweeter array before the measured breakup region, which I suppose limits the drivers to their comfort zone. I’ve noticed no notching or suckouts (not that I necessarily would), but after talking about this specific thing with Eric, it was something he was very aware of and something he designed around.

I added the emphasis to "not that I necessarily would". That's why measurements are done. They illustrate when speakers lack something in their sound.

with erics background in the music industry and speaker industry, awards he won and patents that till this are still being used. why would it be hard to belive he could not make a speaker the way he did with out costings thousnd more dollars but for more affordable audience and play a high degree with speaskers costing thousands more.

A few simple frequency response curves done on- and off-axis would go a long way to convince people. Why should we believe him without such evidence?

another quote from the review on the design

The downside — and frankly, the only downside that I seem able to find — is that this also means that these are not speakers for the detail-freak. I talked to Eric about this, and he gave the verbal equivalent to a shrug. It’s the big flat baffle, he says. Getting more precision (read: detail) out of the drivers would require a lot of tweaking to the speaker’s cabinet. And when I say “a lot” I mean a lot. Something to tune of a couple of grand worth of tweaking. And that really wasn’t where this speaker was supposed to go. Eric also admitted that these drivers might not be as “hi-fi” sounding as some, but I’m on the fence as to whether this is a good or a bad thing

If the speaker "lacks detail" because of a hole in the mid range sound (as I have suggested), no amount of cabinet tweaking will help.

i will admit the reviews have won me over but i am not happy with the return policy at the momment, also if you have better capacitors just add them why do an upgrade if you know that the speaker will sound even better with them.

Installing more expensive capacitors will not result in a better or even different sound. Do not waste money on this.

I am still waiting for a response to that question and if there were other upgrades available. I am %70 HT %30 Music sometimes 60/40 but i do love detail with music so on the fence, Please someone open up your pendragons peak andside take pics of cross overs etc..

Even if a photo of a crossover network comes up, it doesn't tell us that the crossover was designed properly. Only frequency response measurements can do that.

 

[whasaaaab]

I hope I can hear one I am leaning towards monitor audio GX300 or paradigm Sig8's, since i pay dealer cost and sometime cost for what ever i purchase i donot want to spend no more than $4000 grand after the discount.

This is why the pendragon are so appealing to me for $2600 i can geta speaker sound almost as good as speakers costing triple times more, but this wil be my last speakerpurchase unless i win the lotto.

This is why i am trying to get as much information as i can. thanks Swerd for your information, would it make adifference if the pendragons came bi-wired? Bi wired is highly recomened I will eventually get a 7.1 system. I will purchase another pair of RS8's for my surrounds i just need new mains and centre channel. My system is a few years old, its my starter system

My current system

Monitor Audio RS8'S
Monitor Audio RSLCR
Paradigm Signature Sub25
Pioneer Elite SC-05
Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD
OPPO DV-981HD
Sony Play Station 3
Samung TV
APC AV 1.5 kVA H Type Power Conditioner 120V
Atlona Flat HDMI 1.3b certified cables
Ultra Link Platinum Line EXCELSIOR 2.4® MkIIBI-WIRE SPEAKER CABLE

Anyone have the new seas pendragons with the upgraded drivers and tweeters? if so how is the sound and if you have measurements, they cost $3000 so $500 more than the standard pendragons $2500.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If someone offers me Monitor Audio RS8 or Tekton for free, I would take the Monitor Audio.

 

[ski2xblack]

whasaaaab, go read the thread at parts express linked to previously. It has measurements and provides some qualified feedback on the Pendragons, which may help put all this into perspective.

 

[Swerd]

This is why i am trying to get as much information as i can. thanks Swerd for your information

You're welcome.

I'm afraid getting useful info about these speakers is like pulling teeth from a dragon. You may think getting teeth from the dragon would be difficult, but the really hard part is finding a dragon.

… would it make adifference if the pendragons came bi-wired? Bi wired is highly recomened I will eventually get a 7.1 system. I will purchase another pair of RS8's for my surrounds i just need new mains and centre channel. My system is a few years old, its my starter system

No, do not waste any money on bi wire connections or silver/oil capacitors. I cannot emphasize this enough.

Just the price of $750 extra for the capacitors should set off alarm bells inside your head. $750 is 30% of the standard cost of $2500. No tweak, and certainly no capacitor, is worth that much.

Claiming that these speakers sound wonderful without any evidence other than glowing testimony, and following that with an offer to make them even more wonderful sounding by spending 30% more should also be scaring you.

If all that didn't warn you off, the claim that these very expensive capacitors only start sounding good after 100 to 300 hours break in should make you run for the door. If these speakers come with a 30-day money back policy, you're going to have to work hard to accumulate 100 to 300 hours break in before those 30 days are up.

For $2500 a pair, there are many other good choices of speakers available.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, no worries. Tekton offers a 30-day risk free return policy.

If you buy the Pendragon and decide they are not for you, just return them. Just pay $375 restocking fees plus $400 for shipping both ways. So you would be out $775.

 

[Swerd]

Well, no worries. Tekton offers a 30-day risk free return policy.

If you buy the Pendragon and decide they are not for you, just return them. Just pay $375 restocking fees plus $400 for shipping both ways. So you would be out $775.

Ouch! I didn't realize it was that bad.

That's strike 3 for Pendragon.

 

[zieglj01]

The Source Technologies speakers, look more interesting to me,
over the Tekton design >> Also, I would put $2600 towards the
Focal 826V speakers, before that Tekton speaker.

Floorstandinglist

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Source Technologies speakers, look more interesting to me,
over the Tekton design >> Also, I would put $2600 towards the
Focal 826V speakers, before that Tekton speaker.

The Focal 826V retails $2700/pr, but I paid $2,000 shipped, brand new of course.

Seems like $2500-$3000 is the magic MSRP price on speakers.

 

[ousooner2]

Well, no worries. Tekton offers a 30-day risk free return policy.

If you buy the Pendragon and decide they are not for you, just return them. Just pay $375 restocking fees plus $400 for shipping both ways. So you would be out $775.

chump change

 

[zieglj01]

The Focal 826V retails $2700/pr, but I paid $2,000 shipped, brand new of course.

Seems like $2500-$3000 is the magic MSRP price on speakers.

Well, you are an experienced shopper > that is a real good deal.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, you are an experienced shopper > that is a real good deal.

The Dynaudio X32 were a better deal @ $1375 delivered (like-new AudiogoN).

I wanted the Focal 826V for $1375 on AudiogoN, but the best anyone was willing to sell for an excellent condition was $1700 shipped.

That's one thing about B&M speakers that can potentially make them a better bargain - potential huge discounts and bargains.