tekton - the next big thing?

[whasaaaab]

I will becalling him monday to chat he said he would answer some of my questions to his best.. Just read my email from him...

I will definitly ask if there is a crossover for the cones is that correct?

 

[jonnythan]

Why are you putting so much effort into this particular brand of speakers when it's been rather firmly established that there's nothing whatsoever redeeming about them?

Why are you not calling the designers at KEF, SVS, Wharfdale, Ascend, Axiom, Martin Logan, or Polk?

I am all but forced to conclude you're purposefully shilling for this company and trying to drum up online support.

 

[daxriggs]

Either these speakers will have terrible power response (huge suck-outs in the midrange even slightly off-axis), or if the Vifa XT25 tweeters are crossed over below 2kHz, they will have severe distortion. In addition, the woofers without a crossover will have nasty break-ups and sound harsh and unnatural. Once the break-up region is excited by music, distortion will be through the roof.


This speaker doesn't use the Vifa XT25. It doesn't use a Vifa tweeter at all. the tweeter was designed by one of soundscan's lead engineers, specifically for the Pendragons. The tweeters you speak of have a "nipple" protruding out. The ones on the Pendragon have an indention in the middle of the tweeter. If you look at a picture of the Pendragons you are clearly wrong about what the tweeter is. The woofer is different than people have said on this thread also.

I own a pair of these and I can play them insanely loud with no audible distortion in my 35x32 living room with cathedral ceilings.

 

[jonnythan]

I own a pair of these and I can play them insanely loud with no audible distortion in my 35x32 living room with cathedral ceilings.

I have some Cerwin Vegas that could do that too.

 

[daxriggs]

I have some Cerwin Vegas that could do that too.

I was just addressing the distortion that was mentioned. I own a pair, no one else on in this thread does. No need for the sarcastic comment.

 

[jonnythan]

You have a financial interest in not hearing the distortion.

"No audible distortion" is a meaningless claim from someone who owns the product and is offering no measurements. Distortion is easy enough to measure, really.

 

[TLS Guy]

Let's let these Tektons die a quick death.

Everything GranteedEV and TSL Guy said is right on the money. These are smart dooodes and should be listened too.

Either these speakers will have terrible power response (huge suck-outs in the midrange even slightly off-axis), or if the Vifa XT25 tweeters are crossed over below 2kHz, they will have severe distortion. In addition, the woofers without a crossover will have nasty break-ups and sound harsh and unnatural. Once the break-up region is excited by music, distortion will be through the roof.

The lowest the XT25 should be crossed over is 2kHz with an LR4 slope and a proper LCR network. The XT25's resonance is undamped and an LCR is a must.

The photo of the crossover clearly lacks an LCR network.

These speakers should have been a true 3-way. Is it that difficult to build a 3-way? It is if one doesn't have the basic equipment:

LspCad - $1050
Laptop Computer - $400
Calibrated Microphone - $50 (Dayton from PE)
Total - $1500

If a manufacturer cannot invest $1500 worth of equipment, they have no business being in business.

They do not understand even the basic principles of loudspeakers 101.

That's probably the most sensible post in the whole thread!

 

[ridikas]

daxriggs - I stand corrected. It was hard to see from the picture. The Pendragons use an SB Acoustics SB29RDNC tweeters and NOT the Vifa XT25.

With the SB Acoustics tweeter, one can get away without an LCR network and cross the tweeter as low as 1.6kHz using LR4.

This tweeter can actually be crossed over as low as 1.1kHz using LR6

Take a look at some of these rather excellent designs: Zaph|Audio - Design Contest Results

If in the Pendragons the tweeter is crossed this low (1.1kHz - 1.35kHz), using three tweeters can actually lower distortion. The high frequencies would have to be carefully rolled off on two of them in order to minimize the combing effect.

Further information: A 10" woofer begins to beam at 1350Hz. From Zaph's data, we can clearly see that the SB Acoustics SB29 tweeters can definitely be crossed over this low with a steep enough slope, LR6.

I will stand corrected again. It is possible to build a speaker with these SB tweeters and these 10" Eminence woofers and still have a good power response.

So here's my question: Are we certain that these Pendragons don't have a crossover on the woofers? No crossover = major cone break-up and this whole project becomes nonsense. But what if they do use a crossover?

With a proper crossover on the woofer, this might be a rather interesting and high sensitivity design I'm mildly interested... Bottom line, I could build a good measuring and sounding speaker using these drivers and layout, but weather Tekton knew what they were doing remains to be seen. I would have to measure one of these speakers myself, or see some comprehensive measurements by the NRC, or Stereophile.

P.S. Looking at some of the other speakers in their line, I could be giving them more credit than they deserve

 

[daxriggs]

I have no financial interest in "hearing no audible distortion." You are assuming firstly that I wouldn't admit that I made a bad purchase, secondly that I would go on a forum and lie about said purchase, potentially influencing other people to make the same bad purchase. Some people might call that pretentious.

My offer to audition them to anyone who wants to come to the Baton Rouge area and hear them for themselves, still stands.

 

[whasaaaab]

I have no financial interest in "hearing no audible distortion." You are assuming firstly that I wouldn't admit that I made a bad purchase, secondly that I would go on a forum and lie about said purchase, potentially influencing other people to make the same bad purchase. Some people might call that pretentious.

My offer to audition them to anyone who wants to come to the Baton Rouge area and hear them for themselves, still stands.

wish i was in baton rouge, hi daxriggs, since you posted the pic in the other thread did you put the upgrade in? how did it sound differentlly from the previous caps?

What other speakers dod you listen to before pulling the trigger on the pendragons? price points is fantastic but i am also looking for quality

 

[whasaaaab]

Why are you putting so much effort into this particular brand of speakers when it's been rather firmly established that there's nothing whatsoever redeeming about them?

Why are you not calling the designers at KEF, SVS, Wharfdale, Ascend, Axiom, Martin Logan, or Polk?

I am all but forced to conclude you're purposefully shilling for this company and trying to drum up online support.

Wish i was shilling then i would get free speakers, when i research something i research something $$$$ does not come easy, i want this to be my last speaker purchase

Yes i have other speakers in mind, but there at a much higher pricepoint, if you read my post earliar i have monitor audio speakers looking to upgrade to something way better.

If i was shillling and drumming up support i would have a pair of pendragons and saying how fantastic they are how amazing they are better then this speaker and that speaker brand. come on man seriously I am here to find out about what will be my next speaker.

You dont get too many reviews like what the pendragons received, I am getting valuable info from people like swerb, tls guy etc.. I am also learning more about speakers beacuse of this pendragon debate.

Because of my thorough research i always end up with quality that goes for everything not just audio/video I will always purchase the best in the line of that brand what ever it may be unless its not good.

 

[ridikas]

The Pendragons have actually been measured (in room) by someone I trust on Parts Express. These are 100% comprehensive measurements: Let's have some fun with measurements!

While not perfect, there was real acoustical engineering involved in making these speakers. I also don't see any cone break-up, nor distortion in the region where the break-up happens on those woofers (although overall distortion is fairly high). The speakers MUST have a crossover on the woofers.
There's some beaming going on at around 2kHz, or a slight crossover problem. But again, nothing major. Overall on-axis SPL is roughly +/-3dB.

Well what do you know, these turned out to be rather good. These speakers measure better than 95% of speakers on the market, at any price. Sure, similarly priced Revels, Polks, Dynaudios, KEFs, etc. might be better overall, but the Tektons are high sensitivity, which is not something you see everyday.

I have to say the job was well done.

 

[TLS Guy]

daxriggs - I stand corrected. It was hard to see from the picture. The Pendragons use an SB Acoustics SB29RDNC tweeters and NOT the Vifa XT25.

With the SB Acoustics tweeter, one can get away without an LCR network and cross the tweeter as low as 1.6kHz using LR4.

This tweeter can actually be crossed over as low as 1.1kHz using LR6

Take a look at some of these rather excellent designs: Zaph|Audio - Design Contest Results

If in the Pendragons the tweeter is crossed this low (1.1kHz - 1.35kHz), using three tweeters can actually lower distortion. The high frequencies would have to be carefully rolled off on two of them in order to minimize the combing effect.

Further information: A 10" woofer begins to beam at 1350Hz. From Zaph's data, we can clearly see that the SB Acoustics SB29 tweeters can definitely be crossed over this low with a steep enough slope, LR6.

I will stand corrected again. It is possible to build a speaker with these SB tweeters and these 10" Eminence woofers and still have a good power response.

So here's my question: Are we certain that these Pendragons don't have a crossover on the woofers? No crossover = major cone break-up and this whole project becomes nonsense. But what if they do use a crossover?

With a proper crossover on the woofer, this might be a rather interesting and high sensitivity design I'm mildly interested... Bottom line, I could build a good measuring and sounding speaker using these drivers and layout, but weather Tekton knew what they were doing remains to be seen. I would have to measure one of these speakers myself, or see some comprehensive measurements by the NRC, or Stereophile.

P.S. Looking at some of the other speakers in their line, I could be giving them more credit than they deserve

We only have the word of Andrew Robinson that those drivers are full range.

He also said the tweeters were sourced from Scanspeak when in fact they are SB.

The tweeters have a low FS, but are high Q 0.45 and so can not be driven through FS.

So I did some doodling with the drivers in question. I used two of the Eminence 16 ohm speakers in parallel and three of the SB tweeters in series.

I used a second order crossover at 1000 Hz for the woofers and a fourth order crossover for the tweeters at 1800 Hz. This gave a symmetrical fourth order composite crossover for the system at around 2200 Hz.

This gives a mid band response +/- 3db. However the woofers have to be driven well into the break up range. How those woofers actually sound in the break up range I can't tell, but the peaked response is dealt with in the crossover.

However the frequency response model is not that bad. The drivers are pretty much in phase at the crossover point. The impedance is pretty much uniformly 8 ohm except for a peak at crossover. So it should be an easy drive.

With the crossover losses, the estimated sensitivity is 95 db and not the 98 db claimed for the Tektron.

If the woofers are not crossed over then the sensitivity would be 98 db, because of the severely peaked response.

Overall the modeled frequency response is better than I expected. The impedance and phase plots are superior.

I have no idea if the Tektron has circuity remotely close to my model.

You can view my model here.

 

[whasaaaab]

We only have the word of Andrew Robinson that those drivers are full range.

He also said the tweeters were sourced from Scanspeak when in fact they are SB.

The tweeters have a low FS, but are high Q 0.45 and so can not be driven through FS.

So I did some doodling with the drivers in question. I used two of the Eminence 16 ohm speakers in parallel and three of the SB tweeters in series.

I used a second order crossover at 1000 Hz for the woofers and a fourth order crossover for the tweeters at 1800 Hz. This gave a symmetrical fourth order composite crossover for the system at around 2200 Hz.

This gives a mid band response +/- 3db. However the woofers have to be driven well into the break up range. How those woofers actually sound in the break up range I can't tell, but the peaked response is dealt with in the crossover.

However the frequency response model is not that bad. The drivers are pretty much in phase at the crossover point. The impedance is pretty much uniformly 8 ohm except for a peak at crossover. So it should be an easy drive.

With the crossover losses, the estimated sensitivity is 95 db and not the 98 db claimed for the Tektron.

If the woofers are not crossed over then the sensitivity would be 98 db, because of the severely peaked response.

Overall the modeled frequency response is better than I expected. The impedance and phase plots are superior.

I have no idea if the Tektron has circuity remotely close to my model.

You can view my model here.

Damn you guys are good, did you do that with computer software by plugging in your specs?

 

[ridikas]

TLS Guy, interesting results. Did you see the actual measurements of the Pendragons that I posted?

SB's founder was one of the engineers at Scan-Speak, therefore a lot of people mention Scan-Speak in order to make it sound better/more important

I'm guessing the 10" woofers are one of the Eminence Delta, Beta, etc.

At any rate, the Pendragons are capable speakers and their goals are realistic. The actual measurements support that. $2500pr. will buy one a +/-3dB on-axis response, with good power response, high output, clean/not boomy bass because of low q design, high sensitivity, but with mediocre distortion numbers.

Here are some of the best manufacturers in the world: Revel, KEF, Polk Audio, B&W, Dynaudio, Philharmonic, PSB, NHT, Klipsch, Paradigm, Focal. Are there any competitively priced and performing towers from any of these manufacturers ($2500-$3000pr.)?

We have:

Revel F12
NHT Classic Four
Dynaudio X32 and DM 3/7
Philharmonic 1 and 2
Polk Audio LSiM705
PSB Synchrony Two and Imagine T
B&W CM8 and CM9
Klipsch RF-7 II and RF-82 II
Focal Chorus 836 V and 826 V
Paradigm Studio 100 and Studio 60

 

[TLS Guy]

Damn you guys are good, did you do that with computer software by plugging in your specs?

The specs for those Eminence Delta woofer, which I'm sure are the ones in the Tektron, were already on my computer, including T/S parameters and the acoustic response.

For the SB tweeter I loaded the T/S parameters and the acoustic response. For the later interpolated the data points and normalized them. This was pretty easy since the response is so flat with first order roll off.

Then I played with various crossover alignments to see which one gave the smoothest response. The one I posted works best in terms of frequency response and phase. The phase response is a good indication I'm in the target zone for that driver combination.

However the 10" drivers are still operating in their break up zone. These drivers have a 9 db peaking beyond the 500 Hz datum. So I would suspect a lot of stored energy in those cones especially above 1000 Hz, so I make no claims as to how this speaker would sound.

I should stress it would not be my first choice for a build. My preference is to stay well out of peaked break up modes.

There are many drivers that are bend drivers by design, but they do not peak like that at break up and can be driven well into break up mode. I suspect the best known example is the B & W kevlar midrange driver.

I did look at those measurements on the Parts Express forum after doing my design. It confirms I have guessed the correct woofer. As is usual with high sensitivity speakers there is poor bass extension. With three tweeters and two widely spaced 10" drivers, modelling is hard. The measurements show a dip at 2 k Hz and my model shows a slight peak. That could well be due to a different crossover topology or due to driver interference I can't model.

The measurement do show retained energy in just the region I suspected. Because of this measured distortion is fairly high.

There is a listening comment in that thread.

I got to hear them for a bit at Mikes when taking a set of my speakers down there. When he initially told me they had 3 SB29 neos for tweeters I immediately thought they were going to be brutal 'fo shizzle'... They ended up surprising me I wasn't in love with them but I didn't hear a lot to complain about either. I think my biggest gripe about them would be the way the stage shrunk when more and more complexity was added to the tweeters. When the tweeters were asked support one or two instruments it imaged fairly well but as more and more information was added the stage would continue to get more compressed.

Now what he did not like about those speakers I'm certain has nothing to do with the tweeters, but due to retained energy in the break up mode of the 10" cones.

He has given a pretty good description of what that sort of problem would sound like.

In the end that is the sort of problem that gives rise to listener fatigue and long term disenchantment.

His measurement of sensitivity at 95 db 1 watt one meter is what my model predicted.

From those measurements there has to be a low pass crossover to the woofers. I can be pretty confident that I have the correct drivers and that the 10" are two 16 ohm in parallel and that the three tweeters are in series.

I have no idea how similar my circuit is to the ones actually in the speakers.

 

[GranteedEV]

If the crossover is indeed an LR6 at 1.1khz or so, I suppose I could see how they're not absolutely unlistenable, but i still doubt you have much usable tweeter excursion to work with, even with three of them. Those measurements on parts express i'll admit are better than I expected.

Still, you can do a lot better without spending a dime more. That remains a fact.

 

[ridikas]

I agree, one can do better with the same amount of money. It's just nice to see that some actual thought was put behind this product.

Just curious. Any other (well engineered, or at least attempted) high efficiency designs out there?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Let's let these Tektons die a quick death.

Everything GranteedEV and TSL Guy said is right on the money.

After reading this thread, I don't see how anyone could possibly even think about buying Tekton speakers.

 

[ridikas]

Shhhhhhhhh. You own B&W