Sub upgrade opinions

[txbonds]

Any sub can produce output below the stated frequency range, but it would be too low and too distortion laden to matter. Consider the specified frequency range to be the range of useful output.

Correct that multiples of a single sub doesn't really increase extension. It just make the sub system louder. Doubling up on a sub increases the loudness by 6dB. Running multiples can increase extension on certain sealed subs, but that only really works if you have the EQ abilities to adapt the response to the room.

That is very Interesting as some of the larger subs show a useful range that doesn't go very low then. I'm guessing by your feedback that it means that their lower output has too much distortion or something then. Some show readings down in the 20 and under range, but list a frequency response of 40hz-125hz. Then the PC-2000 that doesn't show output as low as others list usable range of 25hz - 125hz. That reading was for the non-pro version of the PC. wonder how the pro version compares. Thanks.

If UPS would ever deliver the rest of my stuff I could start getting some items setup. I've had boxes on the truck and out for delivery for the past 3 days and each day they don't show and the system kicks them forward a day. Fingers crossed for today as my TV bracket is in there and I need to get the 75" Sony 950H up before I can do some other items.

 

[Space2013]

On the Audioholics CEA 2010 subwoofer test data chart, How does the frequency response figure in? Most subs have measured output well below what the frequency range indicates. Trying to figure out how best to compare subs from the chart. Also, how do you make allowance for two of one sub versus the single measurements? And, I'm assuming a second sub would not add anything to the lower measurements, it would only increase the output on the currently measured outputs? ie: a second sub won't make it suddenly have 10hz output if a single one doesn't right? Thanks.

I’m probably one of the least experienced people here, so I’d trust other people’s advice over mine. I am in the process of redoing my home theater, and what I’ve decided to do is go the multiple subwoofer route. My understanding is, especially if your are placement limited, multiple subs will help even out the response.

I would find out what kind of power and size is recommended to fill your space, and then go dual if you can. Based on your initial post, it seems like the open area is just shy of 5,000 cubic feet? That’s a fairly large area, so I’m not sure what kind of single or dual subwoofer you’d need to fill that space.

What I don’t know is how dual subwoofers reinforce each other beyond providing a more even response. For example if a single PC-2000 is close but not quite enough output, would dual PC-2000 give you enough output? I’m not sure. My personal plan is to pick something that by itself would be a pretty good match for my room and go multiple. Edit: I think ShadyJ answered how dual subs reinforce each other above!

So my personal thought is if you are looking at larger more powerful single subwoofers, I’d strongly consider looking at dual subs as well, whether it is the PC-2000 or something else.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I’m probably one of the least experienced people here, so I’d trust other people’s advice over mine. I am in the process of redoing my home theater, and what I’ve decided to do is go the multiple subwoofer route. My understanding is, especially if your are placement limited, multiple subs will help even out the response.

I would find out what kind of power and size is recommended to fill your space, and then go dual if you can. Based on your initial post, it seems like the open area is just shy of 5,000 cubic feet? That’s a fairly large area, so I’m not sure what kind of single or dual subwoofer you’d need to fill that space.

What I don’t know is how dual subwoofers reinforce each other beyond providing a more even response. For example if a single PC-2000 is close but not quite enough output, would dual PC-2000 give you enough output? I’m not sure. My personal plan is to pick something that by itself would be a pretty good match for my room and go multiple. Edit: I think ShadyJ answered how dual subs reinforce each other above!

So my personal thought is if you are looking at larger more powerful single subwoofers, I’d strongly consider going dual as well, whether it is the PC-2000 or something else.

The short version would be something like this. Multiple subs CAN help even the response. But it’s no guarantee. Your still at the mercy of the room, and if your placement limited you might find it to be worse. Adding subs kinda works with the law of averages and excites more room modes at once. The problem is that placement is still king.
Odds are good that adding a second sub will help balance out the FR but like I said, it can be made worse so when adding more subs, at the very minimum you need an spl meter.

 

[Space2013]

The short version would be something like this. Multiple subs CAN help even the response. But it’s no guarantee. Your still at the mercy of the room, and if your placement limited you might find it to be worse. Adding subs kinda works with the law of averages and excites more room modes at once. The problem is that placement is still king.
Odds are good that adding a second sub will help balance out the FR but like I said, it can be made worse so when adding more subs, at the very minimum you need an spl meter.

That’s great context, thanks! I have heard placement is the most critical piece for any subwoofer setup.

What advice would you give on size versus placement when someone has limited space? I assume something like the PC-2000 would have more placement options than a larger sub, but a larger sub would have more output that might be a better fit for the rooms.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That’s great context, thanks! I have heard placement is the most critical piece for any subwoofer setup.

What advice would you give on size versus placement when someone has limited space? I assume something like the PC-2000 would have more placement options than a larger sub, but a larger sub might fill the space better.

Well that’s also tricky. Placement is king, so even the best sub will be at the mercy of the room/MLP relationship. Generally speaking though, I like to recommend the most expensive sub one can afford, and immediately start saving for a second one. There are too many variables and situations to include here. But I find that a bunch of middling subs are still just that. Mileage will vary for everyone though.
As far as size vs placement options, yes the PC2k will offer much more flexibility in placement. And your hunch is right. The extra placement options could definitely be better in the end for a smaller PC2k that’s in the right spot vs an FV15HP that’s not. Optimal single sub placement vs MLP is a different thing than dealing with multiple seats which basically require multiple subs. Unless like me, with a standard LR installation the money seat is the one that matters. If I demo for someone, they always get my seat so...
Iirc txbonds is going with a PC2k pro due to very a tight placement budget. The potential downside is the appearance. Some people just don’t like them. 2/3 of my subs are pc12pluses and I have always like their appearance.

 

[txbonds]

Well that’s also tricky. Placement is king, so even the best sub will be at the mercy of the room/MLP relationship. Generally speaking though, I like to recommend the most expensive sub one can afford, and immediately start saving for a second one. There are too many variables and situations to include here. But I find that a bunch of middling subs are still just that. Mileage will vary for everyone though.
As far as size vs placement options, yes the PC2k will offer much more flexibility in placement. And your hunch is right. The extra placement options could definitely be better in the end for a smaller PC2k that’s in the right spot vs an FV15HP that’s not. Optimal single sub placement vs MLP is a different thing than dealing with multiple seats which basically require multiple subs. Unless like me, with a standard LR installation the money seat is the one that matters. If I demo for someone, they always get my seat so...
Iirc txbonds is going with a PC2k pro due to very a tight placement budget. The potential downside is the appearance. Some people just don’t like them. 2/3 of my subs are pc12pluses and I have always like their appearance.

Yes, I chose the PC-2000 Pro due to space constraints but have been continuing to research in more depth as I've been waiting on packages to slowly tickle in. That's led me to wonder as just asked if something like a Outlaw 13, HSU 15 or Rythmik FV15HP or similar single sub might be better than two PC-2000's due to it's lower end extension. But without ability to try them all in the one spot those big ones would fit, who knows. UPS is killing me though on my package deliveries.

 

[Space2013]

Yes, I chose the PC-2000 Pro due to space constraints but have been continuing to research in more depth as I've been waiting on packages to slowly tickle in. That's led me to wonder as just asked if something like a Outlaw 13, HSU 15 or Rythmik FV15HP or similar single sub might be better than two PC-2000's due to it's lower end extension. But without ability to try them all in the one spot those big ones would fit, who knows. UPS is killing me though on my package deliveries.

That is a tough call. I assume you only have one spot the larger subwoofer would fit, correct? If so, it would really depend on how good that placement happens to be. If it happens to be a really good location for your main listening position I’d say go for one larger one.

It seems more likely, however, that the one spot won’t be ideal, in which case I’d go with dual subwoofers. Or at least a single powerful subwoofer that is still small enough to leave you with floorspace to try some different locations and the option to add a second identical sub in the future. One alternative could be a PC-4000. It maybe compact enough to give you placement flexibility and the option to add a second later if needed.

That’s just what I’d do based on my research, but I’m admittedly new to this so I’d defer to others here.

 

[ryanosaur]

Hmmm.
I recommended dual PC 4000s a while back!


that room is large and open iirc, and would benefit not just from two subs, but two larger matching subs.
Short that, the pc2ks will likely do pretty well for your listening area.

You will not really gain anything by having XLR connections. It’s fine if you decide that is a must, but given your early insistence on space limitations, you are working against yourself.

 

[Space2013]

Hmmm.
I recommended dual PC 4000s a while back!


that room is large and open iirc, and would benefit not just from two subs, but two larger matching subs.
Short that, the pc2ks will likely do pretty well for your listening area.

You will not really gain anything by having XLR connections. It’s fine if you decide that is a must, but given your early insistence on space limitations, you are working against yourself.

Sorry! I missed that. In that case I agree with ryanosaur’s advice! It seems like the PC-4000 would be a good balance of output and placement options. But as ryanosaur mentioned, you may find dual PC-2000 is enough too.

 

[lovinthehd]

That is very Interesting as some of the larger subs show a useful range that doesn't go very low then. I'm guessing by your feedback that it means that their lower output has too much distortion or something then. Some show readings down in the 20 and under range, but list a frequency response of 40hz-125hz. Then the PC-2000 that doesn't show output as low as others list usable range of 25hz - 125hz. That reading was for the non-pro version of the PC. wonder how the pro version compares. Thanks.

If UPS would ever deliver the rest of my stuff I could start getting some items setup. I've had boxes on the truck and out for delivery for the past 3 days and each day they don't show and the system kicks them forward a day. Fingers crossed for today as my TV bracket is in there and I need to get the 75" Sony 950H up before I can do some other items.

When you look for a frequency response, look for one specified +/- 3dB, one without any specification is likely overstating it, but depends on brand to an extent as to how they advertise. The PC2000 is rated +/- 3dB from 16 to 260 Hz.

 

[mazersteven]

That’s great context, thanks! I have heard placement is the most critical piece for any subwoofer setup.

What advice would you give on size versus placement when someone has limited space? I assume something like the PC-2000 would have more placement options than a larger sub, but a larger sub would have more output that might be a better fit for the rooms.

There is no Replacement for Displacement

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

There is no Replacement for Displacement

Agreed! Also...no replacement for proper placement.

 

[Timforhifi]

I feel similar. One great sub in perfect spot will always better then 2 subs in just ok places.

two subs are also harder to set up correctly too.

 

[Kleinst]

I'm now a firm believer in proper placement although I really have very few choices in the rooms I have systems in so it's tough. I have dual SVS PB1000s I picked up a little over a year ago used for a decent price. Frankly till now I thought they are just ok and I was really disappointed when I got them. I recently switched some subs around and placed one of those in a corner spot behind my TV stand and it's amazing. It sounds like a world beater now and it's a little 10 inch sub. I never doubted that the right location could make a difference but as I said, as tolerant as my wife is, I have to be reasonable about where I tuck subs away. In this case it worked out.

Speaking of the PC subs you all are recommending. I think that's great but are they still ugly as sin? I've only seen pictures of some of the early cylinder subs they had and they really look bad (looks like wrinkled felt covering a big tube of course. That not a problem if you could fit them behind a setup or in a hidden corner (which I have a couple locations like that where those would work).

Good luck, sounds like you are on to several good options and frankly you can't loose too much. I would say I agree with some who mention going for 1 that's the best quality you can possibly get (perhaps even used if in mint condition) then maybe adding another later. I find I seldom regret buying quality. I sometimes try to cut corners but the savings are really slim when you think about it over a few years timeframe. Might as well get something good because if not you will be trying to upgrade before you know it

 

[ryanosaur]

I think that's great but are they still ugly as sin

And a big duracoat black box isn't?
I'd take two PC4000s over the PSA subs being discussed.

Which brings to mind another point...

They are using Pro Audio drivers, aren't they? What I saw mentioned on their site while I was digging was B&C drivers. All of their Fs ratings, as best as I could tell, are 35Hz and above. I know you can work around some of that with proper design and DSP...
Frankly, though, this leads me further down the path of questioning PSA Subs. Pro drivers are all good and well when used for the designed purpose, but not a single one of the drivers I looked at were specified to operate subharmonically. Not saying they can't...
But until some good quality 3rd party testing comes out for their more recent product, I am further into the skeptic column.
Show me some valid CEA-2010 tests to compare with what JTR is doing and I will gladly jump on board.
Until then....

 

[txbonds]

Okay, managed to get TV hung, front Canton L/C/R speakers and the PC-2000 Sub setup and the Yammy 3080 fired up. Still need to get the AR800's hung on the front wall.

Immediate observations are that my TV is way to high and will have to be lowered but I'll wait until the Salamander cabinet is in so that I can lower it as much as space allows.

The speakers and sub sound okay but I've not had a chance to run any setup calibration. Will have to try to do that one day this coming week when everyone else is at school/work. So far I only watched an amazon prime mission impossible movie in 4k to get an initial sense. I have everything setup on a plastic folding table at the moment so I can't put any more weight on it to hook up the Marantz UDP-7007 player. Will work on a temp home for it tomorrow to do some music listening. Will have a better opinion once I can get everything fully setup, calibrated and figure out what's what on the AVR settings.

Anyway, I'm still trying to figure out the various setup and controls on the TV and Receiver. I'm pleased so far and realize it will get way more dialed in once I can run the calibration tomorrow. Then I can dial it in further with REW or OmniMic once I get one of those.

The Sony XBR75X950H tv looks great. Would still love to have had the Sony OLED if the 77" were not 3/8" too big, but I honestly can't imagine how bright the A9G or A8H OLED's would appear in my room as the 950H seems so bright it almost hurts your eyes on some scenes. The TCL would probably have been too much too.

The PC-2000 is probably going to be enough output for the volume level we normally listen to. If I'm able to figure out a second location for another one I'm sure it will be fine. However, if I'm not then the one larger 15" sub might be a better bet. Will give this another week or so since I have the time with SVS to explore it further. It's way more bass than we had with that little deftech sub 800, but I can't help but wonder if it will give enough low end without straining once I get things more dialed in.

Will report back once I get things a little more setup.

 

[Timforhifi]

Did you end up getting tv pulled away from wall on articulating mount? I bet it would look great flush with side walls and no annoying reflection on side walls.

 

[txbonds]

Did you end up getting tv pulled away from wall on articulating mount? I bet it would look great flush with side walls and no annoying reflection on side walls.

yes that’s how I have it mounted and that was the holdup as ups had the mount delayed for nearly a week for delivery. Will be a pain to lower it but it needs to come down as much as possible. Will wait for the cabinet to get here before lowering it though.

 

[txbonds]

So after living with everything setup for part of this past week, I think the subwoofer is going to get replaced/exchanged. The problem isn't the output necessarily but the shape. I only have one spot for a larger subwoofer which is the end of the sofa on the back left side. The PC2000 fits there but is just too large to also allow an end table to also fit there and the sub itself isn't conducive to being an end table due to it's shape and height.

So, that means I'm looking at either a single large box shaped sub that can serve as end table also, or possibly dual smaller subs that could sit up front with my main L/R speakers. Won't have a ton of space up there but have been wondering about maybe twin PB1000's, SB2000's or maybe USL-15 MK2 or something. Probably 18" is about as deep as I can get away with justifying and I'm not even sure that is really an option until I do a little digging. If the single large box as endtable approach is taken, it would probably be something like a VTF-15H MK2, FV15HP or an Ultra-X13 so that it could also be an end table for stuff.

The other option and I just don't know how well it would work is that I might be able to pull the salamander cabinet out a little and put a sub back in that alcove behind the cabinet. This seems like a bad idea in my head, but who knows, that alcove may add output sort of like corner loading or something. Not sure.

 

[ryanosaur]

In a room your size, sealed subs just are not the way to go. YMMV. But the lower end output will just not support the open-room volume you reported earlier.