Robb elementary shooting in TX

D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
You'll most likely still lose if that's the case. If there are multiple, they are armed, and their intention is one of lethality you're fucked. They have the initiative.

I think it's so far out on the bell curve as to not be usable in defense of ubiquitous availability of fire arms like the AR15.

Sound's like a c movie script with Liam Neeson.
Also for the record I'm not advocating for AR-15's I don't own one. But the scenario we are discussing is what they were designed for. To defend and kill very effectively. They are just too good at what they do. I'm just saying even on the losing end I'm more comfortable with a hand or a shotgun then the bear spray. That's just me personally

Just saying is all.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
@its phillip That's interesting there will be investigations right now its too soon to know.

It's very difficult to go into situations like that. Your not helping anyone if you get killed and the perp gets access to your equipment. Too soon to know if the cops could have done better or not.

Stating gun control is not an option and cops just need to be at our schools as the ONLY solution however as Cruz stated is so stupid I don't have the words. Better security might be something to think about but there's problems with it too especially as the only solution.

Just getting by resources personel and cost even if you lock the schools down. Cruz is still missing the point that the shooter will just go to another type of location where people are vulnerable and do the exact same thing

To say some type of gun control doesn't need to be a part of the solution is just stupid beyond words.
They went in and got their own kids and then wouldn't let other parents in.

https://www.reddit.com/r/texas/comments/uy8059
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/uxzh88
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Way too soon to know for sure. As a first responder in psych I totally get tackling that parent.

You can't have them running in and being targets themselves or getting in your way.

I don't let parents run in on a code on a psych unit for those exact reasons. It usually makes the situation worse.

It's real popular to just sh$t on cops these days

I'm saying let's let a real investigation pan out before we jump to conclusions.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Gunman entered Uvalde elementary school unobstructed and started shooting, officials say (nbcnews.com)

The gunman who killed 19 children and two teachers at a Texas elementary school on Tuesday entered the school building unobstructed, authorities said Thursday.

Contrary to information officials released earlier, the gunman was not confronted by a school police officer before entering Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, state Department of Public Safety South Texas Regional Director Victor Escalon said Thursday.

The gunman walked into the west side of Robb Elementary at 11:40 a.m. Tuesday and started firing. Four minutes later, local and school police followed him inside, Escalon said.

"They hear gunfire, they take rounds, they move back, get cover, and during that time, they approach where the suspect is at," Escalon said.

As soon as the gunman entered, he walked 20 to 30 feet and turned right to walk another 20 feet before turning left and into a classroom, according to Escalon.

“Officers are there, the initial officers, they receive gunfire. They don’t make entry initially because of the gunfire they’re receiving. But we have officers calling for additional resources, everyone that's in the area," Escalon said.

"During this time that they're making those calls to bring in help to solve this problem and stop it immediately, they're also evacuating personnel, when I say students, teachers. There's a lot going on."

The suspect had shot his grandmother and crashed his pickup truck at about 11:28 a.m. before walking to the school.

Escalon could not immediately explain how the suspect wasn't stopped in the 12 minutes between the crash and campus entry.

"We got a crash and a man with a gun and then you have responding officers. That's what it is, if that's 12 minutes," he said.

“At the end of the day our job is to report the facts and have those answers. We’re not there yet.”

In the time since the shooting, questions have been raised about the time that elapsed between when the shooter crashed his vehicle outside the school and when he was fatally shot by a Border Patrol officer inside the classroom he barricaded himself in to unleash terror.

State and federal law enforcement officials had said earlier that they don’t have a timeline yet on the precise sequence of events.

Some, especially witnesses who were at the scene, have accused officers of not acting quickly enough.

Video footage from outside the school Tuesday appears to show distressed parents and locals reacting to news of the shooting.

One woman is heard yelling: “Get in! Get in! What is the f------ deal?”

“They’re all in there, the cops aren’t doing s--- except standing outside,” a man is heard saying. “You know they’re little kids, right? Little kids, they don’t know how to defend themselves.”

It’s not clear when the video was filmed or whether officers were inside the building at the time.

Questions about police response time
Asked if officers failed to act in a timely manner at the scene, Escalon declined to answer.

"That’s a tough question, that’s a tough question," he said. “I don’t have enough information to answer that question just yet.”

Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steven McCraw said at a news conference Wednesday that the shooter was at the school for up to an hour before law enforcement breached the classroom.

“It’s going to be within, like 40 minutes within an hour,” McCraw said.

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said Wednesday that the gunman entered the school through a back door, walked down two short hallways and came into two adjoining classrooms where he locked the door and sprayed bullets indiscriminately.

Officers from multiple units and agencies — including local police and a tactical team from U.S. Customs and Border Protection — arrived at the scene but couldn’t enter the classroom.

The door to the classroom finally was opened when the principal produced a master key, state and federal law enforcement officials said.

Robb Elementary serves second through fourth grade students in the small town of Uvalde, Texas, about 75 miles from the Mexico border, home to a large Latino community.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Gunman entered Uvalde elementary school unobstructed and started shooting, officials say (nbcnews.com)

The gunman who killed 19 children and two teachers at a Texas elementary school on Tuesday entered the school building unobstructed, authorities said Thursday.

Contrary to information officials released earlier, the gunman was not confronted by a school police officer before entering Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, state Department of Public Safety South Texas Regional Director Victor Escalon said Thursday.

The gunman walked into the west side of Robb Elementary at 11:40 a.m. Tuesday and started firing. Four minutes later, local and school police followed him inside, Escalon said.

"They hear gunfire, they take rounds, they move back, get cover, and during that time, they approach where the suspect is at," Escalon said.

As soon as the gunman entered, he walked 20 to 30 feet and turned right to walk another 20 feet before turning left and into a classroom, according to Escalon.

“Officers are there, the initial officers, they receive gunfire. They don’t make entry initially because of the gunfire they’re receiving. But we have officers calling for additional resources, everyone that's in the area," Escalon said.

"During this time that they're making those calls to bring in help to solve this problem and stop it immediately, they're also evacuating personnel, when I say students, teachers. There's a lot going on."

The suspect had shot his grandmother and crashed his pickup truck at about 11:28 a.m. before walking to the school.

Escalon could not immediately explain how the suspect wasn't stopped in the 12 minutes between the crash and campus entry.

"We got a crash and a man with a gun and then you have responding officers. That's what it is, if that's 12 minutes," he said.

“At the end of the day our job is to report the facts and have those answers. We’re not there yet.”

In the time since the shooting, questions have been raised about the time that elapsed between when the shooter crashed his vehicle outside the school and when he was fatally shot by a Border Patrol officer inside the classroom he barricaded himself in to unleash terror.

State and federal law enforcement officials had said earlier that they don’t have a timeline yet on the precise sequence of events.

Some, especially witnesses who were at the scene, have accused officers of not acting quickly enough.

Video footage from outside the school Tuesday appears to show distressed parents and locals reacting to news of the shooting.

One woman is heard yelling: “Get in! Get in! What is the f------ deal?”

“They’re all in there, the cops aren’t doing s--- except standing outside,” a man is heard saying. “You know they’re little kids, right? Little kids, they don’t know how to defend themselves.”

It’s not clear when the video was filmed or whether officers were inside the building at the time.

Questions about police response time
Asked if officers failed to act in a timely manner at the scene, Escalon declined to answer.

"That’s a tough question, that’s a tough question," he said. “I don’t have enough information to answer that question just yet.”

Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steven McCraw said at a news conference Wednesday that the shooter was at the school for up to an hour before law enforcement breached the classroom.

“It’s going to be within, like 40 minutes within an hour,” McCraw said.

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said Wednesday that the gunman entered the school through a back door, walked down two short hallways and came into two adjoining classrooms where he locked the door and sprayed bullets indiscriminately.

Officers from multiple units and agencies — including local police and a tactical team from U.S. Customs and Border Protection — arrived at the scene but couldn’t enter the classroom.

The door to the classroom finally was opened when the principal produced a master key, state and federal law enforcement officials said.

Robb Elementary serves second through fourth grade students in the small town of Uvalde, Texas, about 75 miles from the Mexico border, home to a large Latino community.
Its looking like your on to something here.

Thats fed up if that's what happened and completely debunks Cruz and all the others going off on how more security and cops are the answer

Good catch
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Audioholic General
If we had NO GUNS, these nuts would use something else. It was a real example. Read again and stop trying to bring more into a conversation. If this govt can't get its act together and get some type of gun control these killings will continue.
Agreed!

Why is the argument always framed NO GUNS, where is the mass fear and paranoia that all guns will be removed from the citizenry? Who is advocating this?

it’s a specious argument!

Gun lovers should be leading the charge for more restriction and better controls.
the average 18 year old is not responsible enough to own this type of weapon.

Trust me, the military does a great job of evaluating, training and weeding out instability. Why don’t we have an abundance of 18-20 year olds in the military losing it and shooting up society?

They have to be qualified….

Not a panacea by any means, but to advocate beefing up schools with more guns to combat an intruder but take ZERO action to make it difficult for perpetrators to access these weapons, makes ”gun lovers”…..complicit.

this is like saying, ‘ we have a problem with drunk driving, I know, let’s hire more doctors and nurses’ so as the accidents pile up, we can fight the battle at the hospital.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
It's not straightforward to get good comparable info about mass shootings as there are various confounding factors (like definition of mass shooting) as well as care has to be taken to interpret the statistics. Below is one article discussing this as well as some data from 2009-2015 and the results are quite interesting comparing mean with median of mass shootings (look to Norway with one huge outlier of mass murder but otherwise none in that period).

Thanks. Worded differently on the search engine, interesting results:
school mass shooting statistics worldwide - Google Search

27 school mass shooting so far this year, 200+ mass shooting this year with the difference occurring outside of schools.

I like this headline in NYT
Other Countries Had Mass Shootings. Then They Changed Their Gun Laws.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The problem is there are excellent reasons for it to be able to do so. Especially for home defense with multiple attackers. Handguns even shotguns and limited rounds won't always cut it in those situations.

The weapon is designed to make even average users become excellent users or much improved. There was a case where a man and his son was assaulted by armed multiple attackers in his front yard. His pregnant wife with limited training was able to drive them off with a AR-15. She would not have had the skill to do so with a handgun

I've shot AR-15's many times and I can say it made me go from an average marksman to a very good one. My military friends had one with a special scope and I went from a very good marksman to an excellent one. With no effort on my part.

Which is the problem. It is a weapon that really is too good at what it was designed to do. Which is to make someone average at home defense an excellent defender. But when you have a weapon that could turn your grandma into a Rambo and then get it easy access into the hands of angry unbalanced individuals especially this pattern of young mentally ill men you have a real problem. Because they are now with no training or effort on there part proficient to the level of officers and other first responders and well above the normal citizen even if that normal citizen is armed with standard guns of self defense.

Should there be a ban or at least restrictions on this type of weaponry? Yeah I think so. They put a ban in a lot of areas on pitbulls and other canine breeds. Not because of any fault of that magnificent animal. But due to the fact that a large number of humans cannot properly train or will intentionally mistrain and use such a powerful breed for reasons other then there intended purpose. To disastrous results.

If you can ban or at minimum restrict an animals ownership for its misuse and improper training and the danger that creates you can ban the use of a certain type of firearm for the same reasons.

My problem is not the ban. But will the government step up after and address all the other issues that lead into this. Such as the obvious deterioration of our nation's mental health after the effects of this current pandemic that impacted our society. Especially how that impacted our youth who lost a normal portion of theyre development social and educational due to the pandemic. Our adolescent units are packed at my hospital and the kids are way more aggressive than they used to be. Some of it due to the last few years impact on education but also the ripple effect this and other pandemic related issues had on there family units due to economic hardship increased domestic abuse and so forth.

If we don't take advantage of any help a ban like this would do and go after those issues then as @cpp states these types of individuals who are increasing in our society will just find another just as effective way to act there homicidal impulses out.

But I agree with you @jinjuku these individuals are out there in increasing numbers so you have to start somewhere. And acknowledging our mental instability as a society right now and restricting this type of access is a great place to START. I just want the conversation to go further with our lawmakers and politicians.

There is a type of magical thinking that if you just restrict then the problem gets solved. That's just human nature to look at these things that way. But we need to go further if we really want to put a stop to this and save some of our impacted youth and there victims if they self destruct

I've always found it ironic as a mental health worker that on so many street corners you got a liquor store put right by a gun store. And they seem and this is just me to be set up that way on certain streets and certain places for a reason. I'd like that dynamic to get addressed too. Or we are just in the long run putting a band aid on a shotgun wound of our society

But your right @jinjuku we have got to start somewhere. Limiting access would be a good place to start. Other options obviously aren't working.
The larger problem- if someone lives in a place where the chance of multiple attackers invading their home is more than miniscule, do they really want to live there?

If the area where I live becomes a place where break-ins, home invasions, armed robbery and other violent crimes occur more than a few times in a year, I'll leave- the problems don't always get better quickly unless it's only one dirtbag and they're caught soon after beginning.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Agreed!

Why is the argument always framed NO GUNS, where is the mass fear and paranoia that all guns will be removed from the citizenry? Who is advocating this?

it’s a specious argument!

Gun lovers should be leading the charge for more restriction and better controls.
the average 18 year old is not responsible enough to own this type of weapon.

Trust me, the military does a great job of evaluating, training and weeding out instability. Why don’t we have an abundance of 18-20 year olds in the military losing it and shooting up society?

They have to be qualified….

Not a panacea by any means, but to advocate beefing up schools with more guns to combat an intruder but take ZERO action to make it difficult for perpetrators to access these weapons, makes ”gun lovers”…..complicit.

this is like saying, ‘ we have a problem with drunk driving, I know, let’s hire more doctors and nurses’ so as the accidents pile up, we can fight the battle at the hospital.
I don't think obsession over guns is healthy in any way. Avid collector, fine. Active competitor, fine. Anyone who wants as many guns as possible because they think the government is going to knock their door down anytime soon is just paranoia.

I think better screening is absolutely necessary.

As Colion Noir mentioned in one of his videos, "The US just approved $40B for Ukraine- our children are most valuable, so why don't we spend a big chunk of money on keeping them safe?".
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
The larger problem- if someone lives in a place where the chance of multiple attackers invading their home is more than miniscule, do they really want to live there?

If the area where I live becomes a place where break-ins, home invasions, armed robbery and other violent crimes occur more than a few times in a year, I'll leave- the problems don't always get better quickly unless it's only one dirtbag and they're caught soon after beginning.
Yeah but not everybody in our country anymore in some communities have the ability to just leave. What are they supposed to do? I'm not saying they should go buy AR 15's but not everyone can get out like you or I can

This is a conservative talking point that both embarrasses me and pisses me off as a conservative. Right wing individuals are like these neighborhoods and communities need to be more accountable speak out more!

I'm just like man do you realize or have you ever lived in a situation like that? It's not so easy to act all big and mighty and righteous when you got to live in a war zone basically. And nobody that's preaching it to you would ever roll down there and help you out.

I'm not saying your doing that it's just something that bothers me
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Agreed!

Why is the argument always framed NO GUNS, where is the mass fear and paranoia that all guns will be removed from the citizenry? Who is advocating this?

it’s a specious argument!

Gun lovers should be leading the charge for more restriction and better controls.
the average 18 year old is not responsible enough to own this type of weapon.

Trust me, the military does a great job of evaluating, training and weeding out instability. Why don’t we have an abundance of 18-20 year olds in the military losing it and shooting up society?

They have to be qualified….

Not a panacea by any means, but to advocate beefing up schools with more guns to combat an intruder but take ZERO action to make it difficult for perpetrators to access these weapons, makes ”gun lovers”…..complicit.

this is like saying, ‘ we have a problem with drunk driving, I know, let’s hire more doctors and nurses’ so as the accidents pile up, we can fight the battle at the hospital.
and to your point, many of us have !

Trouble with so many politicians, mostly Repubs in this case, is they are more concerned with votes from the wacko right and their outreached 2A beliefs than a common sense approach. It should be interesting in my state (Pa) with the forthcoming re-count between the Wizard of Oz and 'Aunty Oakleys' kid (McCormick) as to how they proceed going forward.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Agreed!

Why is the argument always framed NO GUNS, where is the mass fear and paranoia that all guns will be removed from the citizenry? Who is advocating this?

it’s a specious argument!

Gun lovers should be leading the charge for more restriction and better controls.
the average 18 year old is not responsible enough to own this type of weapon.

Trust me, the military does a great job of evaluating, training and weeding out instability. Why don’t we have an abundance of 18-20 year olds in the military losing it and shooting up society?

They have to be qualified….

Not a panacea by any means, but to advocate beefing up schools with more guns to combat an intruder but take ZERO action to make it difficult for perpetrators to access these weapons, makes ”gun lovers”…..complicit.

this is like saying, ‘ we have a problem with drunk driving, I know, let’s hire more doctors and nurses’ so as the accidents pile up, we can fight the battle at the hospital.
I'm someone who's been around guns my entire life. They are tools that have one purpose. They make alive things, dead. That's it. They have other uses too of course, but people that use a screwdriver as a pry bar know that it's always better to use the right tool.

I have an AR-15 that I actually got a month or so ago. It's only job is to shoot hogs. It has no other purpose. It's a garbage home defense gun because it's a long rifle.

I'll be the first in line to give it up if that's what it takes to keep my kids safe. Guns are tools. I don't give a sh!t about my tools when compared to my kids.

I also know nothing like that will happen, and that's depressing. I also asked if they'd ship my gun without the idiotic 30 round mag. I don't need more than 5-7.

Anyone at a gun counter selling 2 guns to an 18yo days after their birthday should have thrown up a massive red flag. Sure, we don't want to assume every kid is a delinquent wanting to shoot up a school, but at the same time it's just too damn easy to buy guns. A minimum amount of effort would have stopped this guy and we just don't care enough to do it.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm someone who's been around guns my entire life. They are tools that have one purpose. They make alive things, dead. That's it. They have other uses too of course, but people that use a screwdriver as a pry bar know that it's always better to use the right tool.

I have an AR-15 that I actually got a month or so ago. It's only job is to shoot hogs. It has no other purpose. It's a garbage home defense gun because it's a long rifle.

I'll be the first in line to give it up if that's what it takes to keep my kids safe. Guns are tools. I don't give a sh!t about my tools when compared to my kids.

I also know nothing like that will happen, and that's depressing. I also asked if they'd ship my gun without the idiotic 30 round mag. I don't need more than 5-7.

Anyone at a gun counter selling 2 guns to an 18yo days after their birthday should have thrown up a massive red flag. Sure, we don't want to assume every kid is a delinquent wanting to shoot up a school, but at the same time it's just too damn easy to buy guns. A minimum amount of effort would have stopped this guy and we just don't care enough to do it.
Curious, what makes an assault rifle a particularly effective choice in getting feral hogs (assume they're feral, they can definitely be nasty f*ckers)?

Would you have any qualm in registering such, and having qualified somehow for such a weapon if the purpose and effectiveness are there as justification? I know it starts to get bureaucratic, but generally seems assault rifles are more suited to killing humans.....
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
and to your point, many of us have !

Trouble with so many politicians, mostly Repubs in this case, is they are more concerned with votes from the wacko right and their outreached 2A beliefs than a common sense approach. It should be interesting in my state (Pa) with the forthcoming re-count between the Wizard of Oz and 'Aunty Oakleys' kid (McCormick) as to how they proceed going forward.
Interestingly though, that very high percentage who agree on increased regulations must be still voting for those nut jobs. Yep, money talks, Mit received over
$14 million from the NRA over time.
My quarter is voiceless.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I'm someone who's been around guns my entire life. They are tools that have one purpose. They make alive things, dead. That's it. They have other uses too of course, but people that use a screwdriver as a pry bar know that it's always better to use the right tool.

I have an AR-15 that I actually got a month or so ago. It's only job is to shoot hogs. It has no other purpose. It's a garbage home defense gun because it's a long rifle.

I'll be the first in line to give it up if that's what it takes to keep my kids safe. Guns are tools. I don't give a sh!t about my tools when compared to my kids.

I also know nothing like that will happen, and that's depressing. I also asked if they'd ship my gun without the idiotic 30 round mag. I don't need more than 5-7.

Anyone at a gun counter selling 2 guns to an 18yo days after their birthday should have thrown up a massive red flag. Sure, we don't want to assume every kid is a delinquent wanting to shoot up a school, but at the same time it's just too damn easy to buy guns. A minimum amount of effort would have stopped this guy and we just don't care enough to do it.
I have a 9mm PCC rifle that still qualifies as an "AR" in the eyes of the law. It is great for target shooting, though I bought it for home defense since the property at the time was quite large. For indoors, it is basically not going to be useful IMO, so the pistols would be first option. Even at 9mm, the penetration would still be pretty high I feel, less velocity but higher mass. IIRC, in ballistics gel, the 9mm penetrates deeper and stays whole, while 556 has the potential to fragment. I have little use for my rifle now besides target shooting and hate to say that I would not have a problem giving it up either. I do like the AR format due to the extreme flexibility and availability of parts to put to use for almost any application, but really don't see the average consumer needing one, or anything with 30+ rounds for that matter.

For hogs, I would actually think a bolt rifle with a larger and/or higher velocity round would be better and would not come with a 30 rounder. IMO, a solid quality bolt would probably be a little less that a quality AR.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
How many people "need" guns? I can see hunting, target shooting "needs" but beyond that it just seems to devolve....and maybe sourced from the former.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have a 9mm PCC rifle that still qualifies as an "AR" in the eyes of the law. It is great for target shooting, though I bought it for home defense since the property at the time was quite large. For indoors, it is basically not going to be useful IMO, so the pistols would be first option. Even at 9mm, the penetration would still be pretty high I feel, less velocity but higher mass. IIRC, in ballistics gel, the 9mm penetrates deeper and stays whole, while 556 has the potential to fragment. I have little use for my rifle now besides target shooting and hate to say that I would not have a problem giving it up either. I do like the AR format due to the extreme flexibility and availability of parts to put to use for almost any application, but really don't see the average consumer needing one, or anything with 30+ rounds for that matter.

For hogs, I would actually think a bolt rifle with a larger and/or higher velocity round would be better and would not come with a 30 rounder.
PCP? I just got one of those myself for plinking. It wouldn't be useful for protection from what I've seen demos of....
 

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