Robb elementary shooting in TX

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
F....Lawyers

""
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla.The mass shooting at a Texas elementary school invaded the penalty trial of Florida’s campus killer Wednesday as lawyers argued over whether potential jurors should be questioned directly about the nation’s latest gun tragedy and a victim’s father was brought nearly to tears.

Attorneys for Parkland, Florida, killer Nikolas Cruz clashed with his prosecutors, saying they should be allowed to ask potential jurors directly about their knowledge and feelings about the Uvalde, Texas, shootings that left 19 students and two teachers dead on Tuesday. The 18-year-old shooter also died.""

Freaking lawyers playing their game.
Will see how the judge responds.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I don't think we disagree as much as you think my friend we just have different mindsets on how to get there. But that's what makes America great as troubled as she is right now. People like and you and me push each other challenge each other to think about our shared problems. And from that comes evolution and hopefully the best way forward.

I've always enjoyed our talks and your contributions I've learned a lot from you and you have opened my eyes to lots of things. Thank you for that.
@Danzilla31

As always, I appreciate your input, even when we don't agree. If nothing else, you keep me on my toes.
The only thing that fixes things like this is all of us realizing it's us vs. the problem, not each other.

There are not two sides to this issue. The issue is guns are one of, if not the highest, cause of injuries to kids right now in the US. We have to fix that. I don't care how it gets done, but it needs to get done. I'm tired of sending my kids to school to learn active shooter drills. My son goes to kindergarten next school year and I would rather him enjoy his education without me having to always worry some crazy a$$hole is going to go to their school because we can't be bothered to restrict gun purchases a bit more.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm not sure what correlation you are trying to draw down but let's take a look @ what you provided:

Japan: Other than the police and the military, no one in Japan may purchase a handgun or a rifle

Indonesia: In Indonesia, gun licenses are only issued to civilians employed in a profession that involves using firearms, such as in the military and law enforcement

China: Gun ownership in the People's Republic of China (PRC) is regulated by law. Generally, private citizens are not allowed to possess guns. Civilian ownership of guns is largely restricted to authorized, non-individual entities

Italy: In Italy, national police issue gun licenses to those over the age of 18 without criminal records, who are not mentally ill or known to use illicit substances, and who can prove competence with firearm safety.

Germany: Gun ownership in Germany is restrictive, being regulated by the Federal Weapons Act (German: Waffengesetz) of 1972.[345] The laws apply to weapons with a fire energy exceeding 7.5 J. A firearms license may be granted to those over the age of 18 who have no criminal convictions or mental disability, who are deemed reliable and can justify a reason for owning a firearm.

United Kingdom:The UK increased firearm regulation through several Firearms Acts,[384] leading to an outright ban on automatic firearms and many semi-automatic firearms. Breech-loading handguns are also tightly controlled

France:
In France, a hunting license or a sport-shooting license is needed to purchase any smokeless powder firearm. In September 2015, firearms were divided into four categories that determine the regulations that apply to their possession and use.[344] Category D arms include black powder firearms designed before 1900 and compressed air arms developing between 2 and 20 joules, they can be purchased by any citizen over the age of 18. Category C firearms can be obtained with a hunting license, or sport-shooting license with a medical certificate. Category C includes mainly single-shot-per-barrel shotguns and single-shot or manual repeating rifles (including centre-fire rifles, for hunting or target shooting). Once legally purchased these category C arms may be kept, without using them, even when no longer licensed for hunting or sport-shooting.

Category B firearms are only available to sport-shooters licensed for at least 6 months, with a medical certificate, without any felony convictions, and additionally requires at least three shooting sessions with an instructor each separated by 2 months. Specific authorisations for purchase and possession may then be sought from a local police administration, are valid for 5 years, and are renewable. Such weapons may then only be used for sport-shooting at shooting ranges, never for hunting. Category B includes all assault type rifles, such as AK-47/AKM, AK-74 or AR-15/M16/M4, and any look-alike weapons even when chambered for rimfire cartridges (.22 LR). These must be semi-automatic only. All handguns, including those using rimfire ammunition, are classed as category B. It is illegal to possess these category B weapons after expiry of a non-renewed specific authorisation: the arms must be disposed of (sold to a gun shop or else destroyed, for example). Authorisations can also be revoked at any time by any of the parties involved in the authorisations delivery (Government, Prefecture, Police).


Vietnam: Firearms in Vietnam are restricted to the military and law enforcement agencies, with possession of firearms prohibited to civilians

Should I continue?
There is your experiment. We just need to do it.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Ever watch Cover your ASP? He talks very much about first mover advantage. It is what it is.

In your getting robbed you would have been killed going for your gun also. If you aren't first mover or you can't change the terms of engagement (pull from cover/concealment) then I don't know what your point is.

People that are armed, that get shot, can also very much panic and shoot. So not sure as to your point.

MY point is that someone is more than likely to full on hose a home intruder down with a 9oz can of pepper spray than pull a trigger. When the fight/flight hormones are flowing accuracy goes down. Pepper spray is more lenient in this regard.
Yes I watch excellent site.

Still if I have multiple armed attackers intruding with lethal intent into my home with my family at risk and I have limited time to respond and not enough time for first responder intervention I know what my go to will be. And that's not bear spray.

That site provider on cover your asp would actually agree.

Also as you said if they get the first drop that makes bear spray or guns irrelevant. As taught you either have to wait your turn or if not possible most likely you comply and hope for the best.

Not really sure what like you said what were getting hung up on here with either? It's like we're just hung up on semantics. When in the broader context of this thread I think we largely are in agreement on solutions being offered.

I say let's just agree to disagree on this one. You go for the bear spray I'll go for my gun! :D
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
The only thing that fixes things like this is all of us realizing it's us vs. the problem, not each other.

There are not two sides to this issue. The issue is guns are one of, if not the highest, cause of injuries to kids right now in the US. We have to fix that. I don't care how it gets done, but it needs to get done. I'm tired of sending my kids to school to learn active shooter drills. My son goes to kindergarten next school year and I would rather him enjoy his education without me having to always worry some crazy a$$hole is going to go to their school because we can't be bothered to restrict gun purchases a bit more.
Yeah I totally agree. I have to say this is another sticking point for me just like Trump was. I'd struggle to vote Republican with this absurd idea of let's just let anyone over 18 be able to legally buy up stuff like friggin Rambo or the Terminator.

This is something that if conservatives are tone deaf and not responsive to constituents needs we are going to get our asses kicked with it at the voting booth. And we should.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
The only thing that fixes things like this is all of us realizing it's us vs. the problem, not each other.

There are not two sides to this issue. The issue is guns are one of, if not the highest, cause of injuries to kids right now in the US. We have to fix that. I don't care how it gets done, but it needs to get done. I'm tired of sending my kids to school to learn active shooter drills. My son goes to kindergarten next school year and I would rather him enjoy his education without me having to always worry some crazy a$$hole is going to go to their school because we can't be bothered to restrict gun purchases a bit more.
We live close to each other just come over to my theater room. You can home school him there!!!
;)
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I need to Google for a similar chart for mass shootings.
It's not straightforward to get good comparable info about mass shootings as there are various confounding factors (like definition of mass shooting) as well as care has to be taken to interpret the statistics. Below is one article discussing this as well as some data from 2009-2015 and the results are quite interesting comparing mean with median of mass shootings (look to Norway with one huge outlier of mass murder but otherwise none in that period).

 
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SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic General
Present arguments aside for the moment. With regards to original "intent" by the founders. Some of their quotes here might provide some clarity with respect to the 2nd A. and how they viewed Militias.

Also, to those outside the US who are reasonably interested in asking what is up with that US Constitution? It is most helpful to read up on the UK's Glorious Revolution 1688 and the resulting 'Constitution" in 1689. Then read the Declaration of Independence and the context of the time it was written. Monarchy & Mercantilism (centralized political & economic power) were the defacto world order. No democracies nor republics. They organized the first notable Republic (besides some Italian city states) since Rome. They wanted limited government power and placed as many checks and balances they could think of to preserve it. Anything that moved it away from that limited model they would have considered a move towards Tyranny. Anyway, RIP Ray Liotta. Off to the cornfields to catch up with Shoeless Joe.....

“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined…” – George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes…. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” – Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

“On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

“I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence … I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

“To disarm the people…s the most effectual way to enslave them.” – George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

“I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” – George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.” – Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.” – James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.” – James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

“…the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone…” – James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.” – William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.” – Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.” – Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

“This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty…. The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.” – St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

“The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves.” – Thomas Paine, “Thoughts on Defensive War” in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

“The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” – Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

“The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.” – Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

“What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty …. Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.” – Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

“For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787

f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.” – Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
We live close to each other just come over to my theater room. You can home school him there!!!
;)
Dude we did that when my first was in kindergarten, then first grade AND kinder for the older two.

I'd have to teach THREE different kids three different skill levels.

I wouldn't make it. I'd just turn on a movie and tell them education can wait.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Still if I have multiple armed attackers intruding with lethal intent into my home with my family at risk and I have limited time to respond and not enough time for first responder intervention I know what my go to will be. And that's not bear spray.
You'll most likely still lose if that's the case. If there are multiple, they are armed, and their intention is one of lethality you're fucked. They have the initiative.

I think it's so far out on the bell curve as to not be usable in defense of ubiquitous availability of fire arms like the AR15.

Sound's like a c movie script with Liam Neeson.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
You'll most likely still lose if that's the case. If there are multiple, they are armed, and their intention is one of lethality you're fucked. They have the initiative.

I think it's so far out on the bell curve as to not be usable in defense of ubiquitous availability of fire arms like the AR15.

Sound's like a c movie script with Liam Neeson.
Obviously you’ll booby trap your house along with LIDAR controlled automatic guns. As icing on the cake let the mines be controlled by your heartbeat so when you die it blows up taking the enemy with you, including the libs next door.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
You'll most likely still lose if that's the case. If there are multiple, they are armed, and their intention is one of lethality you're fucked. They have the initiative.

I think it's so far out on the bell curve as to not be usable in defense of ubiquitous availability of fire arms like the AR15.

Sound's like a c movie script with Liam Neeson.
Like I said I don't want to go back and forth and I agree with a lot of what your saying. But even if I'm screwed I'm going down swinging and I like my odds a heck of a lot better with the gun vs the bear spray.

And that scenario you described is exactly why weapons like the AR-15 were designed. To give you some type of chance to level the field.

But since we can't use some common sense gun laws. And people are going crazy with them right now I'm not against trying some changes as posters such as yourself have discussed in this thread.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-videos-show-police-did-absolutely-nothing-to-stop-the-uvalde-shooter/ar-AAXLddZ said:
Update: Today, it was announced that authorities will now examine the response of police, investigating what steps were taken to stop the gunman and analyzing ballistics.

Just after tweeting that he and his wife were “fervently lifting up in prayer” the community of Uvalde, Texas, in the immediate wake of Tuesday’s mass shooting at Robb Elementary School, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) told MSNBC that gun control wasn’t necessary to combat gun violence and that in the future, more armed officers should be stationed at schools. “We know from past experience that the most effective tool for keeping kids safe is armed law enforcement on the campus,” Cruz said.

However, multiple new videos and eye-witness accounts from the scene of the entirely preventable tragedy—which claimed the lives of 21 people—have revealed that several armed officers were on the scene and, in fact, did nothing to stop the 18-year-old shooter, Salvador Ramos.

Not only does the Uvalde City School District have its own police department— staffed with a chief, five officers, and a security guard—but additional law enforcement called to the scene (including Border Patrol Agents, who ultimately killed Ramos) are shown to have stood idle in the parking lot outside of school as Ramos gunned down 19 children and two teachers in a barricaded classroom. Parents’ and bystanders’ desperate pleas can be heard on the videos, which were spliced from the livestream of an eyewitness, Hugo Cervantes.

“What are you doing—get inside the building!” one person screamed at cops in one of the clips, as another can be heard yelling, “Go protect the kids!”

One victim’s father, Javier Cazares, was one of the frantic parents on the scene, as his daughter Jacklyn, was trapped in the classroom with the shooter. He told the press that upon hearing gunfire, he actually suggested rushing into the school to others at the scene, as the cops clearly weren’t doing anything. Cazares told NPR the police were clearly “unprepared.”

Another clip, which shows several parents trying to surpass police lines in an attempt to enter the school, even reveals a woman on the ground who appears to be pinned by an officer. A witness can be heard saying, “What the f–k are you doing to her? Let her go!”

Juan Carranza, another eyewitness who lives across the street from the school, said he not only saw Ramos crash his car before entering the school, but also noted that police didn’t enter the building as multiple people in the parking lot begged them to do something.

In the immediate reports following the mass shooting in Uvalde, law enforcement pushed a significantly more flattering narrative. After Ramos crashed his truck near the school, he reportedly injured two people near the car after firing at them before entering the school. The Texas Department of Public Safety said Ramos fired on two Uvalde police officers who were outside Robb Elementary, injuring them as well. There’s since been conflicting reports as to when law enforcement arrived and how soon Ramos started firing in the school.

However, US Border Patrol Chief Raul Ortiz, told CNN that dozens of on-duty and off-duty officers responded to the shooting and “didn’t hesitate.” While Steven McCraw, the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, told a news conference on Wednesday: “The bottom line is law enforcement was there. They did engage immediately. They did contain [Ramos] in the classroom.” Yet McGraw also told the press that the gunman was on site for an estimated 40 minutes to an hour before law enforcement were able to “contain” him. Later, a department spokesman contradicted McGraw, saying that a solid estimate of how long the gunman was in the school or when he was killed could not be given. A news clip circulating on Twitter also shows an officer telling a local reporter that some officers allegedly entered the school prior to Ramos’ containment to remove their own children.

Even more disturbingly, according to an anonymous law enforcement official, Border Patrol agents couldn’t immediately breach the classroom door. Ultimately, a staff member had to open the room with a key—meaning an inordinate amount of time passed as the Ramos barricaded himself in the fourth-grade classroom. Law enforcement officials also claimed Ramos was wearing “body armor” during the attack, though it’s since been confirmed it was only a tactical vest.

Despite the emergence of more horrifying details, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) has insisted that things “could have been worse” if not for law enforcement’s involvement. The parents of victims like Cazares are begging to differ.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
My point is that we get to the point that they don't have a gun either.
That would be a great point but I think we both can agree we have a lot of work and at least 20 to 40 years of hard work to get there.

In the meantime back to my first point if we can't get crime down and law and order established then too much of the American population won't let go of there dependency on firearms. They will pressure they're elected officials that will dictate policy. And then we just end up right back where we started.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
@its phillip That's interesting there will be investigations right now its too soon to know.

It's very difficult to go into situations like that. Your not helping anyone if you get killed and the perp gets access to your equipment. Too soon to know if the cops could have done better or not.

Stating gun control is not an option and cops just need to be at our schools as the ONLY solution however as Cruz stated is so stupid I don't have the words. Better security might be something to think about but there's problems with it too especially as the only solution.

Just getting by resources personel and cost even if you lock the schools down. Cruz is still missing the point that the shooter will just go to another type of location where people are vulnerable and do the exact same thing

To say some type of gun control doesn't need to be a part of the solution is just stupid beyond words.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Dude we did that when my first was in kindergarten, then first grade AND kinder for the older two.

I'd have to teach THREE different kids three different skill levels.

I wouldn't make it. I'd just turn on a movie and tell them education can wait.
EXACTLY!!! :D An audio education is the BEST education!!!
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
You'll most likely still lose if that's the case. If there are multiple, they are armed, and their intention is one of lethality you're fucked. They have the initiative.

I think it's so far out on the bell curve as to not be usable in defense of ubiquitous availability of fire arms like the AR15.

Sound's like a c movie script with Liam Neeson.
You mean life doesn't work like a Liam Neeson movie? ;)
 

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