Review of the Salk Veracity HT3 loudspeaker

Martin.leese

Martin.leese

Audiophyte
Thanks. I will check it out. There has been some recent research on the perceptual attributes of different surround microphone techniques including spaced and coincident techniques like MS. For piano music at least, spaced omni's/cardioids seem to be preferred by listeners since they produce better spatial (envelopment and apparent source width) and timbral properties, which seem to withstand off-axis listening positions.

The least preferred microphone methods were coincident techniques using Ambisonics (no surprise there). I actually participated as a listening subject in the microphone comparison at McGill and the Ambisonics was clearly the worst one of the choices I heard.
Discussion about spaced omnis versus coincident mics has been going on for a long time. See, for example, the classic 1986 paper by Stanley P. Lipshitz (I am not allowed to post URLs, so you will have to remove the spaces):
www . aes . org / e-lib / browse.cfm?elib=11494

Regards,
Martin
 
Martin.leese

Martin.leese

Audiophyte
I think the Calrec Ambisonic microphone with its UHJ code/encode system was ahead of its time, and they payed the penalty. However I have some two channel mix downs on Nimbus that sound very good. Unfortunately I have been unable to find, any of the Nimbus UHJ DTS recordings released on DVD A.
Can you not buy these direct from Nimbus? The DVDs, which are both DTS and MLP, are listed on the Nimbus website (I cannot post URLs, so you will have to remove the spaces):
www . wyastone . co . uk / nrl / dvd_num.html

The main page of their website also lists the e-mail address "sales wyastone.co.uk" (you will need to replace the space with an '@' sign).

The other way to play the pieces is to buy the standard stereo (UHJ encoded) Nimbus CD, and to decode this to surround sound using a UHJ decoder. This is how Nimbus produced their DVDs; their master tapes are two-channel UHJ. This has the advantage that you will no longer be limited to four speakers (the centre-front channel being unused) or to arranging them in a square.

Meridian surround processors have always included a UHJ mode. Also, 1980s UHJ decoders occasionally come up on eBay (a Minim AD7 sold a few days ago for 75 pounds/US $120).

Regards,
Martin
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
No, I have not tested those specific models.
I would be interested if you did (source type, as I said, rather than specific model, as you said). However, I would also understand if you didn't, given their market share, as well as potential market share (due to mandated positioning).

Now I understand your question. We don't recommend you use multiple subwoofers beyond about 120-200 Hz for reasons you suggest.

Equalization above that frequency will either be based on a single seat or a spatial average made across several seats. You can't make every seat perfect with multi-point equalization, contrary to what some people may suggest.
Yes, I know ;). Which is why it may be preferred to start with a source less influenced by the room.

I can think of several reasons why wider uniform horizontal dispersion might be more important than uniform vertical dispersion: the most important reflections are off the side walls since they contribute spaciousness. The ceiling/floor reflections don't contribute to spaciousness, and the carpet (if you have one) will absorb much of the first floor bounce at higher frequencies. But I am speculating because I have not done an experiment where only the vertical radiation was manipulated while other factors were kept constant, and to my knowledge, no one has yet.
But I'm not disputing that horizontal is most important, it is. That certainly doesn't mean that what I said wouldn't hold true. That uniformity in the entire polar field(s) and the resulting reverberant spectra might not be preferred. Quite true that the absorption coefficients of the room planes will differ. But cognitively, do we/have we adapted to this? Our brains seem pretty good as filters.

I have tested some loudspeakers with co-axial/coincident drivers that meet the criterion you suggest, yet there was nothing special about them that made them sound superior in any way. Some of them were downright awful.
But is that indicative of the format or the particular DUT's?
Did that include the latest generation KEF, TAD and now even Genelec?
Doubtful, but surprise me ;)

It seems that loudspeaker compromised of well-designed vertical driver arrays seem to do pretty well. The CBT arrays developed by Keele et al, are a good example where good horizontal and vertical dispersion can be achieved. They also have desirable directional properties that make them good candidates as surround speakers, as discussed in Floyd Toole's book.
Can't argue that the vertical monopolars in the market are innumerable. No doubt, but one always wonders if there is a better mousetrap (though not necessarily a more marketable one).

cheers,

AJ
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Has anyone here treated a room so the ceiling was absorptive, the floor had heavy rugs where the first reflections are and the walls were treated normally?
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
Has anyone here treated a room so the ceiling was absorptive, the floor had heavy rugs where the first reflections are and the walls were treated normally?
I think they put funny jackets on you in places like that.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Has anyone here treated a room so the ceiling was absorptive, the floor had heavy rugs where the first reflections are and the walls were treated normally?
I have ceiling absorbers and a very thick padding under my carpet(I tested many paddings and picked the one I tested to have maximum absorption). I have tried virtually every treatment setup imaginable. So what is the question?

-Chris
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I have ceiling absorbers and a very thick padding under my carpet(I tested many paddings and picked the one I tested to have maximum absorption). I have tried virtually every treatment setup imaginable. So what is the question?

-Chris
Just wondering how well that works if someone has really nice hardwood floors and won't give them up, but they don't care as much if the ceiling is treated like in a loft or other similar space.
 
tonmeister

tonmeister

Audioholic
I think you are correct. That is why I think intensity techniques produce a much better sound stage than phase difference techniques. The problem is that omni microphones as a group tend to have a smoother frequency response than microphones with directionality. For an intensity microphone technique you need mic capsules with directionality.

If you take two omni mics and space them (commonly done), what you really have is two mono sources. So if you put two spaced omni mics in front of a piano, you have two mono sources of pretty much the same amplitude. The only difference is phase, and I don't think that is an ideal fit for human hearing localization.
But human localization uses a combination of interaural intensity (IID) and time (ITD) differences. Below about 1 kHz ITD's are the primary localization cues used by humans to localize sound, cues which the spaced omni or cardioid techniques produce. The spaced cardioid method (ORTF) produces a combination of time and intensity differences, which perhaps gives you the best of both worlds.

The main problem with spaced mic techniques occurs when the spacing is too wide and you get a "hole in the middle" between the two loudspeakers. A sort of ping-pong effect is heard between the two loudspeakers for instruments located slightly off-center to the mic array. This problem can be solved by adding a 3rd microphone in between the flanking left and right microphones.
 
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tonmeister

tonmeister

Audioholic
But is that indicative of the format or the particular DUT's?
Did that include the latest generation KEF, TAD and now even Genelec?
Doubtful, but surprise me ;)
I am referring mostly to the older generation Tannoys and KEFS. A coaxlai Tannoy was used at the NRC for many years to anchor the lower part of the Fidelity scale. When people heard it, they would automatically adjust their ratings for the other loudspeakers upwards on the scale.
Can't argue that the vertical monopolars in the market are innumerable. No doubt, but one always wonders if there is a better mousetrap (though not necessarily a more marketable one).
I actually agree with you that there are merits in a cardioid loudspeaker, particularly at lower frequencies (below 500 Hz) where the radiation pattern will reduce the acoustical interaction with the room. It makes placement of the loudspeaker less critical. JBL Pro is now selling Vertec Arrays with subwoofers that can be configured as cardioids to focus the bass more at the audience.
 
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AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
I am referring mostly to the older generation Tannoys and KEFS. A coaxlai Tannoy was used at the NRC for many years to anchor the lower part of the Fidelity scale. When people heard it, they would automatically adjust their ratings for the other loudspeakers upwards on the scale.
Ah, those ;).
Things have advanced significantly since then Sean. Heck, give your own Control 30 a listen/measure. Your engineer responsible for that driver deserves design responsibilities with Revel or JBL LSR series.

I actually agree with you that there are merits in a cardioid loudspeaker, particularly at lower frequencies (below 500 Hz) where the radiation pattern will reduce the acoustical interaction with the room. It makes placement of the loudspeaker less critical. JBL Pro is now selling Vertec Arrays with subwoofers that can be configured as cardioids to focus the bass more at the audience.
Yeah, but who here would be crazy enough to have something like that in their room other than me?;)
I demoed a cardioid system (dipole/monopole combo) at a TV studio in KY for some DIYers. Got some strange looks when I told them to stand behind the speakers and listen :).
Btw, with 1st order gradients, it's not just placement that is advantageous. Remember, unlike monopoles, they can be rotated in position and couple differently with modes (an idea I stole from the Gradient Revolution and implemented).

cheers,

AJ
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
sorry to bump an old thread but this thread made my day.
 

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