Replacing current speakers because of ear fatigue

[PENG]

Thanks PENG,



Can you tell me some brand and model names to look it up?



So rather than my phone use a media box that already has EQ capabilities? I could look into that but I really like the simplicity of picking a song from youtube music in my phone and sending it to the amp like I'm doing now.

As Shady pointed out, what I suggested would require the use of a PC/laptop.
For free:
Download foobar2000

For $60 when not on sale, free trial available:
JRiver Media Center - Download

JRiver's PEQ is amazingly flexible.
Below is an example, the PEQ I am playing around with for use with my LS50 used for my desktop system.

 

[lovinthehd]

Or to start you could perhaps experiment a bit with your current tone controls or have you already?

 

[qba]

Or to start you could perhaps experiment a bit with your current tone controls or have you already?

Thanks lovinthehd, I haven't yet because everything sound so good to me

 

[qba]

As Shady pointed out, what I suggested would require the use of a PC/laptop.
For free:
Download foobar2000

For $60 when not on sale, free trial available:
JRiver Media Center - Download

JRiver's PEQ is amazingly flexible.
Below is an example, the PEQ I am playing around with for use with my LS50 used for my desktop system.

View attachment 52491

Thanks PENG, I prefer not adding a PC and just keeping using my phone to send music to the CCA, or find another WIFI device that can be even better.

 

[qba]

Thanks for the reply Eppie

I haven't seen the Silvers in town yet but they come up often in recommendations. They are a nice step up from the Bronze without the expense of the Gold or Platinum line. A reputable speaker manufacturer. If I was looking for bookshelves in that price range the Silvers and Permiers would be on my list.

Yep I think I could end up with the Silver, now the question is the $50 or the $100

For what is typically available in Canada I think you've done well in your choices so far.

I think is more thanks to you guys than anything else, for me they were al the same lol

The Totems can be a mixed bag. They typically do not have a very flat frequency response. In fact, it can be all over the place. That speaker appeals to someone looking for a particular type of sound. They have their fans, but there are more accurate speakers for the money.

Maybe it was a good thing I didn't waste time listening to them

Wharfdale and PSB might be two other brands to consider, but it sounds like you may be able achieve your goal with speaker positioning and some EQ. The lure of shiny new speakers can be pretty strong though.

I didn't find those at the store or at least the rep guy didn't tell me it was in my budget around the $1000

 

[-Jim-]

Okay, let's try a little different approach and think a bit out of the box.

How about going to some moveable mounting bracket / arms that will allow you to swing out the speakers away from their current position while still leaving them fastened to the wall?

Pivoting TV Wall Mount Swing Out Articulating Arm +Universal Sound Bar Speaker Bracket

These could be an easy and less costly fix. Then EQ the Sony's. If that doesn't work, then buy new speakers!

 

[lovinthehd]

Or just tell the salesmen your budget is twice what it is so you can get an idea of what the additional money might or might not bring....listen to some variety of speakers, not particularly a price point....I like the idea of looking for PSB....good Canadian brand.

 

[qba]

Okay, let's try a little different approach and think a bit out of the box.

How about going to some moveable mounting bracket / arms that will allow you to swing out the speakers away from their current position while still leaving them fastened to the wall?

Pivoting TV Wall Mount Swing Out Articulating Arm +Universal Sound Bar Speaker Bracket

These could be an easy and less costly fix. Then EQ the Sony's. If that doesn't work, then buy new speakers!

Thanks Jim!!!!!!!!!!, why the heck I didn't think of that myself? As you can see my desk is using similar arms

Ok Jim let's talk about it, place the arms on the studs, and now I could freely move the speakers to wherever I want.
1 - What does wherever I want to looks like?
2- Right above the Monitors, that would be away from the wall but will create even less space between me and the speakers, but if they are far away I could just turn them toward me.
3- If I'm able to attach the arms to the table that would be even better because I could raise and lower my desk with the same speaker position.
4- For these arms to work I need to screw into the $1000 speakers, but I guess it is what it is.

Jim I need to double-check but I'm pretty sure I have two of those arms in my garage, I'll check now and if I have them I will try to install them and see, now the question is even though because those arms are based on hydraulics and they may be able to hold the speakers in place, how do I know that they won't vibrate with the music and add some distorting I don't even know is coming from there?

Btw I just read these arms are only rated for 17.5 pounds, which means that I can't add a medium speaker like the Monitor Audio Silver 100, only the smaller Monitor Audio Silver 50, is it worth it to have the type of limitation?

 

[qba]

Thanks lovinthehd

Or just tell the salesmen your budget is twice what it is so you can get an idea of what the additional money might or might not bring....listen to some variety of speakers, not particularly a price point....I like the idea of looking for PSB....good Canadian brand.

I told them doesn't have to be $1000 if the alternative are limited, that is why the first store brought me the Focals that I think were over $1300

 

[-Jim-]

Thanks Jim!!!!!!!!!!, why the heck I didn't think of that myself? As you can see my desk is using similar arms

Ok Jim let's talk about it, place the arms on the studs, and now I could freely move the speakers to wherever I want.
1 - What does wherever I want to looks like?
2- Right above the Monitors, that would be away from the wall but will create even less space between me and the speakers, but if they are far away I could just turn them toward me.
3- If I'm able to attach the arms to the table that would be even better because I could raise and lower my desk with the same speaker position.
4- For these arms to work I need to screw into the $1000 speakers, but I guess it is what it is.

Jim I need to double-check but I'm pretty sure I have two of those arms in my garage, I'll check now and if I have them I will try to install them and see, now the question is even though because those arms are based on hydraulics and they may be able to hold the speakers in place, how do I know that they won't vibrate with the music and add some distorting I don't even know is coming from there?

View attachment 52496

Btw I just read these arms are only rated for 17.5 pounds, which means that I can't add a medium speaker like the Monitor Audio Silver 100, only the smaller Monitor Audio Silver 50, is it worth it to have the type of limitation?

@qba, There are lots of different types of arms / brackets available - some hydraulic and some just mechanical - with various weight capabilities. They are usually very solid and won't be excited (vibrate) when a Speaker is mounted on them - especially when you are directing the low frequencies to your Sub.

Did you look at these (click on the link): Pivoting TV Wall Mount Swing Out Articulating Arm +Universal Sound Bar Speaker Bracket

They are rated to 33 pounds / 15 Kg.

You could use a TV or Monitor Mount (without the Vesa bracket portion) if your Speakers end up being heavy. As an example I have two excellent North Bayou F400 TV Mounts (on 55 inch Samsung LED TVs ) that can take between 30.8 and 50 pounds. ($44 with free shipping from Toronto area to anywhere in Canada. Gas Strut Mount )

My first concept is to put the brackets where your existing ones are and swing them Left and Right to get you a wider soundstage - and then point them out from the wall. You can adjust the Toe In to suit after you listen to them. Size the brackets not only for weight, but for their ability to get to the position needed. I'd say length but they probably won't get there in a straight line.

Attaching the Speakers to the Table would also work.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Eppie]

In your price range I was thinking about the Wharfedale Diamond EVO 4.1 for $1k. It uses an Air Motion Transformer for the tweeter that many find pleasing. They weigh in at 17 lbs.

PSB makes the Imagine XB bookshelf for $800. The new PSB Synchrony line is supposed to be amazing but the bookshelves are $3500. If the new Imagine line borrows some of that technology it could have good value.

Have you though about mounting a shelf just above the monitors? That would allow some lateral movement and you could use foam speaker stands to angle them down. Something with a front lip that prevents them from sliding forward. Not quite as clean as wall mounts or swing arms. Just throwing the idea out there.

 

[qba]

@qba, There are lots of different types of arms / brackets available - some hydraulic and some just mechanical - with various weight capabilities. They are usually very solid and won't be excited (vibrate) when a Speaker is mounted on them - especially when you are directing the low frequencies to your Sub.

Did you look at these (click on the link): Pivoting TV Wall Mount Swing Out Articulating Arm +Universal Sound Bar Speaker Bracket

They are rated to 33 pounds / 15 Kg.

You could use a TV or Monitor Mount (without the Vesa bracket portion) if your Speakers end up being heavy. As an example I have two excellent North Bayou F400 TV Mounts (on 55 inch Samsung LED TVs ) that can take between 30.8 and 50 pounds. ($44 with free shipping from Toronto area to anywhere in Canada. Gas Strut Mount )

My first concept is to put the brackets where your existing ones are and swing them Left and Right to get you a wider soundstage - and then point them out from the wall. You can adjust the Toe In to suit after you listen to them. Size the brackets not only for weight, but for their ability to get to the position needed. I'd say length but they probably won't get there in a straight line.

Attaching the Speakers to the Table would also work.

I hope this is helpful.

Thanks Jim for all that valuable information. I think I'm close to the solution, check the reply below

 

[qba]

In your price range I was thinking about the Wharfedale Diamond EVO 4.1 for $1k. It uses an Air Motion Transform for the tweeter that many find pleasing. They weigh in at 17 lbs.

PSB makes the Imagine XB bookshelf for $800. The new PSB Synchrony line is supposed to be amazing but the bookshelves are $3500. If the new Imagine line borrows some of that technology it could have good value.

Have you though about mounting a shelf just above the monitors? That would allow some lateral movement and you could use foam speaker stands to angle them down. Something with a front lip that prevents them from sliding forward. Not quite as clean as wall mounts or swing arms. Just throwing the idea out there.

Thanks Eppie, because of your post I'm trying to have another listening to check the Wharfedale Diamond EVO 4.1 and some others but I think I'm close to the solution, check the reply below.

 

[qba]

I spent part of the night reading on the benefits of having space between the speakers and the wall and the negative consequences of having the speakers too close to the wall, now I have a better grasp and I understand what you guys have been referring to, I noticed that in different articles and youtube videos the information vary about the distance and some other things, but there is a collective agreement on the main points, so forgive me if something I'm saying below is not 100% accurate, but at the end, I had to pick one source. I still going to get rid of half of the bookshelf to have a more open sound stage.

I'm using the number 33 2/5 distance from the wall based on a video I watched that suggested a distance of
85 centimeters, but even if is a little bit less or more it doesn't really change my point.

Speakers separated from the wall:
We need to keep the speakers far away from the wall (This distance varies from room to room and I have seen different suggestions), which could be at around 33 2/5 inches, to let the frequencies wave coming from every direction of the speaker be delayed by at least 5 milliseconds before is reflected back to us. Otherwise, it would be perceived by our brain as time smearing of the direct signal, affecting the transient response and stereo imaging, it could muffle the sound where the edges of notes aren't so clearly defined, it also has an impact on the sound stage and our ability to place the instruments.

Solution for time smearing:
Believe it or not, to minimize the time smearing effect, we need to keep the speaker as close to the wall as possible which is great for my application, but this has other negative consequences.

Consequences (Room Gain):
Having the speaker very close to the wall will help us with the time smearing issue, but will boost the low frequencies (bass) up to 6db

Base on all the above information I can't separate the speakers from the wall far enough to avoid time smearing effect, because at the right distance of around 33", it would place those speakers on top of my head, anything less and I'm actually making it worst, so my best solution is what I already have right now, that is why the sound stage sounds so clear and I can notice different instruments at different positions within the sound stage. I haven't experienced yet the sound wrapping or passing behind me, but I didn't notice that even on the stores I went to, I'm hoping a better speaker in my home setting with the bigger speaker separation, may give me that.

My dilemma then is to deal with the extra reflective bass from the wall behind the speakers, and for that, I have a few solutions, that I could combine to tackle the issue.

My options to deal with room gain:
1- Buy on-wall speakers, this will deal with the extra bass.
- This will reduce my selection and therefore the quality of speakers I could choose from.

2- Create a bass trap, add Rockwool panels behind the speakers.
- According to a video I watched by an engineer working for Dynaudio, the bass absorbing trap has to be done based on measurements and not one size or thickness fits all because this could have unwanted consequences. Trying to figure this out, looks difficult, plus if I don't have to, I don't want to take away space from the small space I already have between me and the speakers by adding a thick material behind it.

3- Buying smaller speakers like the Monitor Audio Silver 50, or similar ones that have less bass, I read that the
Klipsch RP-600M is good for small spaces as well because it's low bass (Its dimension are bigger than the Sony, bringing the speakers even closer to me).
- I like this idea

4- Use a mini DSP to lower the low frequencies peaks on the speakers
- I like this idea

5- Seal the hole in the speaker to reduce its bass, for what I read it doesn't matter if the hole is at the front or at the back, this doesn't make the speaker less or more affected by being close to the wall.
- I like this idea (but maybe is unnecessary if I use a mini DSP)

I see the light at the end of the tunnel Any opinions?

 

[Eppie]

Room gain can sometimes be a good thing if a speaker lacks in the lower end. Judging by your comments so far, I don't think on-walls will provide the same level of satisfaction and you will have less flexibility for placement. You will also find it very difficult to find stores that demo on-walls. Swing arm mounts will yield the most options for placement. Or jury-rig some temp stands until you are happy with the placement and then use wall mounts. Some of the speakers you are considering are not really designed for near-field listening so size and depth will be an issue, but that's a personal choice. Before worrying about wall distance, start with the speakers that have the sound characteristics that you prefer. That will have the biggest impact.

For my den, I am working to put together a couple of small 2-way speakers and adding a subwoofer as desk space is a premium. The Sonys do not look too deep, but keep the depth in mind when considering others as that brings the drivers that much closer to you. Something compact like the MA Silver 50 may work very well if paired with a subwoofer. The bass response is close to the Sony's. The RP 600M definitely has lower bass extension.

Having gone from no sub to a mediocre sub to a good quality sub, I would not discount the importance of good clean bass in the lower spectrum. Did you keep the A-S501? That has a separate subwoofer output but the amp has no bass management that I can find. Bass management allows the amp to filter lower frequencies from the main speakers and send them only to the sub, which can have certain advantages. Without bass management, the mains will get a full spectrum signal, but the subwoofer will have a variable low pass filter that controls up to what frequency the sub will handle. So if the speakers roll off at 60Hz, you could adjust the sub to handle 60 Hz and below. The room looks to be too small for a regular sub, so it might be a good candidate for a compact sub like the SVS 3000 Micro or KEF Kube 8. They won't go down to 20Hz, but have decent output down to about 30Hz. This is something you can add any time down the road but the need depends upon what type of music you listen to.

 

[qba]

Thanks Eppie,

Room gain can sometimes be a good thing if a speaker lacks in the lower end.

Good to know

Judging by your comments so far, I don't think on-walls will provide the same level of satisfaction and you will have less flexibility for placement. You will also find it very difficult to find stores that demo on-walls.

Agree.

Swing arm mounts will yield the most options for placement. Or jury-rig some temp stands until you are happy with the placement and then use wall mounts.

Good idea, I could make the rig with 2 x 4 to see if is worth it using the arm or not

Some of the speakers you are considering are not really designed for near-field listening so size and depth will be an issue.

I didn't know that there are speakers with characteristics that favored near-field listening. So far I think reducing bass is important to my close-to-the-wall application, so I'm thinking only small speakers.

Of what I have listened to so far these two are on my list, Monitor Audio Silver 50 and Paradigm Premier 100B, everything being equal I preferred the Monitor Audio Silver 50, but if the Paradigm Premier 100B is better for near-field listening I'll go with that one.

Before worrying about wall distance, start with the speakers that have the sound characteristics that you prefer. That will have the biggest impact.

These are the ones I'm looking forward to listening to if they have them at the local stores, I'll I'm already in contact with some to see if I can do it in the next coming days.

Can you please tell me which ones on this list favored near-field listening?

Elac Uni-Fi 2.0 UB 52 (A bit on the big size, these ones are sold by amazon so I will just buy them and I'll return them if they don't sound better than the Sony)

PSB Imagine XB

Monitor Audio Silver 50 7G (Already listened to them and I like them but would listen to them again, for comparison with other brands the store)

Paradigm Premier 100B (Same as above)

Wharfedale EVO4.1

Wharfedale Diamond 12.2

Is the Wharfedale EVO4.1 better than the Dimond 12.2, so I could just ignore the Diamond?

Just to let you know I'm very happy with the Sony, once I got home from the audio stores, I couldn't tell the difference at all, but just to be really sure I'll buy the ones without a return penalty, then I'll do a blind A/B test at home and only then I'll replace the Sony.

Did you keep the A-S501?

My nephew was going to bring it since he was coming to Toronto for Christmas but now with the new Covid's variant everything changed, so I'll have to wait till February.

For my den, I am working to put together a couple of small 2-way speakers and adding a subwoofer as desk space is a premium. The Sonys do not look too deep, but keep the depth in mind when considering others as that brings the drivers that much closer to you. Something compact like the MA Silver 50 may work very well if paired with a subwoofer. The bass response is close to the Sony's. The RP 600M definitely has lower bass extension.

Having gone from no sub to a mediocre sub to a good quality sub, I would not discount the importance of good clean bass in the lower spectrum. Did you keep the A-S501? That has a separate subwoofer output but the amp has no bass management that I can find. Bass management allows the amp to filter lower frequencies from the main speakers and send them only to the sub, which can have certain advantages. Without bass management, the mains will get a full spectrum signal, but the subwoofer will have a variable low pass filter that controls up to what frequency the sub will handle. So if the speakers roll off at 60Hz, you could adjust the sub to handle 60 Hz and below. The room looks to be too small for a regular sub, so it might be a good candidate for a compact sub like the SVS 3000 Micro or KEF Kube 8. They won't go down to 20Hz, but have decent output down to about 30Hz. This is something you can add any time down the road but the need depends upon what type of music you listen to.

Because of the advice from the knowledgeable people in this forum, I already have a very nice and clean subwoofer! The SVS SB-1000

 

[Eppie]

I didn't know that there are speakers with characteristics that favored near-field listening. So far I think reducing bass is important to my close-to-the-wall application, so I'm thinking only small speakers.

Of what I have listened to so far these two are on my list, Monitor Audio Silver 50 and Paradigm Premier 100B, everything being equal I preferred the Monitor Audio Silver 50, but if the Paradigm Premier 100B is better for near-field listening I'll go with that one.

These are the ones I'm looking forward to listening to if they have them at the local stores, I'll I'm already in contact with some to see if I can do it in the next coming days.

Can you please tell me which ones on this list favored near-field listening?

Elac Uni-Fi 2.0 UB 52 (A bit on the big size, these ones are sold by amazon so I will just buy them and I'll return them if they don't sound better than the Sony)

PSB Imagine XB

Monitor Audio Silver 50 7G (Already listened to them and I like them but would listen to them again, for comparison with other brands the store)

Paradigm Premier 100B (Same as above)

Wharfedale EVO4.1

Wharfedale Diamond 12.2

Is the Wharfedale EVO4.1 better than the Diamond 12.2, so I could just ignore the Diamond?

Just to let you know I'm very happy with the Sony, once I got home from the audio stores, I couldn't tell the difference at all, but just to be really sure I'll buy the ones without a return penalty, then I'll do a blind A/B test at home and only then I'll replace the Sony.

My nephew was going to bring it since he was coming to Toronto for Christmas but now with the new Covid's variant everything changed, so I'll have to wait till February.

Because of the advice from the knowledgeable people in this forum, I already have a very nice and clean subwoofer! The SVS SB-1000

Ah, nice that you have a sub already. I think I will see if I can defer to @shadyJ as to what might be better near field (listed above). The Hsu speakers mentioned earlier are good near field, but the speakers you have listed are typically stand mounts and I can't say with certainty which is better near field.

If we had started this search going for near field speakers, then I would have mentioned Genelec, but those would be harder to demo as they are more often carried by pro audio shops and some models are powered speakers that have balanced (XLR) inputs, so that may not be what you're looking for. Shady has also tested several powered monitors that sound very good, but again, difficult if not impossible to demo in Canada and you would need a free return policy to try them. But I digress.

As to the Wharfedales the 12.2 has a dome tweeter while the EVO 4.1 has an AMT, so different sound characteristics. Audio Science Review did full measurements on the EVO 4.1 and it did not review that well there. It exhibited some resonances and they complained about the AMT "beaming". The narrow directivity makes it suitable for near field listening, but it needs some EQ to flatten the curve in the high end. Didn't see measurements on the 12.2, but general impressions on that line are that it is warmer and more neutral than the EVO.

The MA Silver 100 rated better. Some resonances but not as bad. Still needed a bit of EQ above 3kHz but not as much as the Wharfdales. If you're after a flat response, looks like the MA Silver is the winner, assuming that the 50 performs close to the 100.

 

[qba]

Thanks Eppie,

Ah, nice that you have a sub already. I think I will see if I can defer to @shadyJ as to what might be better near field (listed above). The Hsu speakers mentioned earlier are good near field, but the speakers you have listed are typically stand mounts and I can't say with certainty which is better near field.

If we had started this search going for near field speakers, then I would have mentioned Genelec, but those would be harder to demo as they are more often carried by pro audio shops and some models are powered speakers that have balanced (XLR) inputs, so that may not be what you're looking for. Shady has also tested several powered monitors that sound very good, but again, difficult if not impossible to demo in Canada and you would need a free return policy to try them. But I digress.

I know, I just didn't know I needed to look for speakers suitable for near field

As to the Wharfedales the 12.2 has a dome tweeter while the EVO 4.1 has an AMT, so different sound characteristics. Audio Science Review did full measurements on the EVO 4.1 and it did not review that well there. It exhibited some resonances and they complained about the AMT "beaming". The narrow directivity makes it suitable for near field listening, but it needs some EQ to flatten the curve in the high end. Didn't see measurements on the 12.2, but general impressions on that line are that it is warmer and more neutral than the EVO.

K, I'll try to listen to both of them

The MA Silver 100 rated better. Some resonances but not as bad. Still needed a bit of EQ above 3kHz but not as much as the Wharfdales. If you're after a flat response, looks like the MA Silver is the winner, assuming that the 50 performs close to the 100.

The Silver 50 sounds really good, I listened to them on the store.

 

[qba]

I know you guys have been mentioning none stop about separating the speakers, but I keep thinking if they only knew how good this sounds, I don't think it can't get any better.

Shocking
Today I remove the double bookshelf and I brought in the single one so I could have more space to separate the speakers, I double the space and I just couldn't believe the difference! the sound stage became so wide! the instruments had more space in between, it feels up the room way more than before, I was in awe, what an improvement!

Even more shocking
So I said to myself, what if we remove the bookshelf from this room and add it to a different room so we can try the speakers even further away, and it got even better! I couldn't believe it, it doesn't sound anymore now as good as the speakers at the store, but it sounds 50% better! I just can't understand how can any other speaker I bring in, will sound better than what it sounds like now. I still haven't experienced the sound behind me, but wow how good does this sound! this makes every lack of sleep I have been experiencing in the last two or three weeks, by posting so feaquently in this forum worth it!

I replaced the stands with new ones that don't require drilling on the back of the speakers. Now I need to get myself a mini DSP to test regulating the speaker's bass and bring some new speakers into the house for true A/B testing.

The wall should be good as new by the end of tomorrow

 

[Pogre]

I know you guys have been mentioning none stop about separating the speakers, but I keep thinking if they only knew how good this sounds, I don't think it can't get any better.

Shocking
Today I remove the double bookshelf and I brought in the single one so I could have more space to separate the speakers, I double the space and I just couldn't believe the difference! the sound stage became so wide! the instruments had more space in between, it feels up the room way more than before, I was in awe, what an improvement!

View attachment 52548View attachment 52549

Even more shocking
So I said to myself, what if we remove the bookshelf from this room and add it to a different room so we can try the speakers even further away, and it got even better! I couldn't believe it, it doesn't sound anymore now as good as the speakers at the store, but it sounds 50% better! I just can't understand how can any other speaker I bring in, will sound better than what it sounds like now. I still haven't experienced the sound behind me, but wow how good does this sound! this makes every lack of sleep I have been experiencing in the last two or three weeks, by posting so feaquently in this forum worth it!

View attachment 52550View attachment 52551View attachment 52552
I replaced the stands with new ones that don't require drilling on the back of the speakers. Now I need to get myself a mini DSP to test regulating the speaker's bass and bring some new speakers into the house for true A/B testing.

The wall should be good as new by the end of tomorrow
View attachment 52553

Yes! It's what we've been saying all along! So many people underestimate how much positioning and room interaction can affect how your speakers perform, and it's really almost the most important factor. Like I said earlier it's possible to have the best speakers in the world, but totally hamstring performance with poor positioning.