Replacing current speakers because of ear fatigue

[PENG]

I've never been so insulted in all my life!

Now you got me curious about which one of the OP's short list speakers you would pick, and why? Would you be comfortable to pick one without hearing them but only based on the available data and qba's subjective impressions of each?

(5) Replacing current speakers because of ear fatigue | Page 4 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

I hope you will still response after the insult...

 

[PENG]

I've never been so insulted in all my life!

Now you got me curious, so which one of the OP's short listed speakers would you pick, and why? Would you be comfortable to even pick one (or rule out) without hearing them but only based on the available data and qba's subjective impressions only?

(5) Replacing current speakers because of ear fatigue | Page 4 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

I hope you will still respond after the friendly insult...

 

[highfigh]

Thanks highfigh, that is an amazing position to be, plus at the end, it was even a better deal

The annualized cost is very low- somewhere in the neighborhood of $3.50/year.

 

[PENG]

You really need to use a spl meter to level match the volume accurately. Differences in sensitivity makes using the position of the volume dial irrelevant. A more sensitive speaker will play louder at the same number on the dial than a less sensitive one, and even if it's only a slight difference it can affect the way you perceive it sounding. It may not be obvious as an increase in volume but can come across sounding cleaner or more detailed.

I know that's another curve ball I just threw at you, but it is a factor worth considering.

Agreed, it is hard to just look at the sensitivity specs and adjust the volume accordingly because manufacturers tend to give a single number sometimes don't even say if the spec is for 1 W or 2.83 V, let alone providing the impedance curve. SPL meter is a must for a proper comparison. I am also concerned about if he listen to all of them at the same height (tweeter at ear height).

Paradigm Premier 100B	90/87 (1W or 2.83V?)
Klipsch RP-600M	96
Monitor Audio Silver 100	88/1W
B&W 607 S2	84
KEF L50 Meta	85

 

[qba]

The annualized cost is very low- somewhere in the neighborhood of $3.50/year.

lol

 

[PENG]

ASR just reviewed/measured the Monitor Audio Silver 100. Apparently it has just been discontinued so I guess there is room to bargain.

Monitor Audio Silver 100 Review (Speaker) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

It did get the full pink panther.

 

[qba]

Agreed, it is hard to just look at the sensitivity specs and adjust the volume accordingly because manufacturers tend to give a single number sometimes don't even say if the spec is for 1 W or 2.83 V, let alone providing the impedance curve. SPL meter is a must for a proper comparison. I am also concerned about if he listen to all of them at the same height (tweeter at ear height).

Paradigm Premier 100B	90/87 (1W or 2.83V?)
Klipsch RP-600M	96
Monitor Audio Silver 100	88/1W
B&W 607 S2	84
KEF L50 Meta	85

Thanks PENG for that detailed info! I'll keep that in mind for next time!

btw I forgot to take a picture of the back of the Monitor Audio Silver, but after double-checking the pictures I definitely didn't listen to the Monitor Audio Silver 100, those were the Monitor Audio Silver 50, look at the sizes below, the Monitor Audio Silver on the picture was the same size as the B & W, when I was at the store I could see that they had similar dimensions. My Sony at home looks clearly bigger than the ones at the store, plus the Klipsch looked even bigger than the Sony. This is the reason I said I didn't want the Klipsch for the wall, but if you see the height of the Monitor Audio Silver 100 they are taller than my Sony. Anyway no a big deal, is just that I'm thinking now that the bigger Monitor Audio Silver 100 probably sounds even better than the ones I listen to in the store.

	H x W x D
Sony SSCS5	13 1/10 x 7 x 8 3/5
B&W 607 S2	11 4/5 x 6 1/3 x 8 1/10
Monitor Audio Silver 50	11 1/8 x 6 1/2 x 10 3/8
Monitor Audio Silver 100	14 3/4 x 9 1/16 x 13 5/64
Klipsch 600M	15 3/5 x 7 9/10 x 11 4/5

 

[qba]

ASR just reviewed/measured the Monitor Audio Silver 100. Apparently it has just been discontinued so I guess there is room to bargain.

Monitor Audio Silver 100 Review (Speaker) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

It did get the full pink panther.

Thanks those measurements looked so much better than the B&W 607 S2

Yeah, the 6 Generation has been discontinued because the Monitor Audio Silver 100 7G is out.

 

[Pogre]

lol Come on MrBoat, those speakers in the wall with the SVS subwoofer sound at least 100 times better than any headphones you can buy at any price.

Ol' Boat does make a point tho. Wall mounting is generally not a great way to go for stereo speakers unless they're made to be wall mounted. Especially if rear ported. This gets back to my other post about room interactions, rearranging for better speaker placement and how it can transform performance.

 

[qba]

Ol' Boat does make a point tho. Wall mounting is generally not a great way to go for stereo speakers unless they're made to be wall mounted. Especially if rear ported. This gets back to my other post about room interactions, rearranging for better speaker placement and how it can transform performance.

Thanks Pogre, I completely understood Boat point. I wasn't taking his headphones comment literally, it was just a humorous response

 

[Eppie]

I've had my Paradigm Studio 20 for about 11 years now. I'd say they lie somewhere between the Premier 100B and Founder 40B. It's funny that the first shop you visited placed the speakers on top of the Founder 80F towers. Those are towers that I've been thinking about moving up to.

I think some people shy away from Klipsch as some of the cheaper models can be a little bright with the horn design, although their speakers are very efficient with high sensitivity ratings. There are those that do like the tractrix horn. WookieGR has a complete Klipsch setup in his home theatre (thread here). Nice thing about the RP-600M is the design of the flared rear port which allows closer placement to a wall.

The Paradigm Premier offer good value in that they employ technology from the higher end models, with the perforated lens in front of the drivers. B&W doesn't seem to get much love in these forums but I think that it's more of a pricing issue and that there is often better value for money in their high end speaker lines. They are still pretty popular in Canada. A good friend of mine went with B&W in his theatre setup and it sounds pretty damn good. When I bought my Paradigm in-walls, the one speaker that sounded better was B&W, but they were also twice the price.

And don't discount what a good pair of headphones can do. When you get into brands like Focal, Grado and Stax they can sound amazing but a Sennheiser HD-800S will set you back $1700 and Focal Clear MG are $2k.

 

[qba]

I've had my Paradigm Studio 20 for about 11 years now. I'd say they lie somewhere between the Premier 100B and Founder 40B. It's funny that the first shop you visited placed the speakers on top of the Founder 80F towers. Those are towers that I've been thinking about moving up to.

I think some people shy away from Klipsch as some of the cheaper models can be a little bright with the horn design, although their speakers are very efficient with high sensitivity ratings. There are those that do like the tractrix horn. WookieGR has a complete Klipsch setup in his home theatre (thread here). Nice thing about the RP-600M is the design of the flared rear port which allows closer placement to a wall.

The Paradigm Premier offer good value in that they employ technology from the higher end models, with the perforated lens in front of the drivers. B&W doesn't seem to get much love in these forums but I think that it's more of a pricing issue and that there is often better value for money in their high end speaker lines. They are still pretty popular in Canada. A good friend of mine went with B&W in his theatre setup and it sounds pretty damn good. When I bought my Paradigm in-walls, the one speaker that sounded better was B&W, but they were also twice the price.

And don't discount what a good pair of headphones can do. When you get into brands like Focal, Grado and Stax they can sound amazing but a Sennheiser HD-800S will set you back $1700 and Focal Clear MG are $2k.

Thanks Eppie! 1700 to 2k for a pair of headphones they have to be a very good pair of headphones!

Btw what is your take on the Monitor Audio Silver vs Paradigm premier 100b? I heard them both but because I listened to two other speakers in between, it wasn't a close comparison but I think I could be happier with either of them, I may have to go back to the store for another test of those two.

 

[MrBoat]

Thanks for the reply MrBoat,


Good point but I'm surrounded by screens almost to the top of my head, as you can see in the pictures from the previous pages, let's say I separate the table from the wall and place it in the middle of the room, this is only a 10' x 11' room, I still need to have speaker's towers taller than my head while I'm sitting down, so I could clear the monitor's height and the speakers still need to be tilted down. By being so close to the speakers, if I don't tilt the speakers down, I feel that the sound is going to pass over my head. Mounted in the wall is easier to reach the required height and tilt them down. Secondly, different members of my family like to paint from time to time, especially my daughter, in one of the pictures where I'm showing the heavy curtains behind me, that can be used to stop the sound from reflecting against the window glass, you can see the easel with her current canvas in the corner, she sometimes even likes to paint on the floor, so just can't claim this room just for my self

When we purchased this property we replaced all the electrical wiring, so I use the opportunity to ask on the quote to run a single Cat6a (Ethernet) to almost every room in the house, and run, 3 extra ethernet cables, one HDMI, one Optical and Coax into the back of TVs attached to the wall in different rooms, plus many speaker wires, subwoofer cable running to the "home theater room" and the Kitchen. Everything runs to an electrical room in the basement where I have metals racks from floor to ceiling with all of the AV receivers, Plex Server PC, Media Players, HDMI splitter, ethernet switches, etc.

I went through all that work and money for a few different reasons, but between the top reasons was to avoid having tables/cabinets underneath each TV taking space from our living areas. We all have our passions in life and priorities, sacrificing a small percentage of the music quality for clean and open living spaces seems to be important to our family.

But because of all of you guys' advice, I'm already making changes and taking more space from the room for my audio setup, but is going to be a lateral space that is less intrusive. I was able to convince my lovely wife yesterday, that we are going to turn the double bookshelf on the right of the desk, that used to be triple, but we reduced it to double for my workspace, into a single column bookshelf, with just her workbooks, as I previously mentioned we are all kindle readers so that bookshelf is just a nostalgia piece of an era that is no more, at least in our family. With this lateral space now those speakers can be separated even father than the length of my desk almost to the length of the whole wall that would be too much, as I'm typing this I realized I could have now speaker towers on the floor at each end of the desk!!!!! but I wonder if that would be too much?



lol Come on MrBoat, those speakers in the wall with the SVS subwoofer sound at least 100 times better than any headphones you can buy at any price.

I saw the screens, and I would have to build a custom audio desk with swing around speaker perches, or something. Mine seconds as a video game and movie console. I have roughly the same width space and mine is in a humble living room. Whatever happens to the sound behind me and beyond, is of no concern anymore. I have a pair of Fusion-12 Tempests as near field speakers about 8 ft apart, and on either side of my desk, along with 2, 12" sealed subs. The desk is positioned out into the room to where the chair position makes it roughly an 8' x 5' triangle. I could fit roughly 6 feet of computer screen at the front edge of my desk and still have the speakers mostly uninterrupted. They are toed-in about 45-ish deg. They have large waveguides and the image is otherwise inescapable.

Hey, you're the one who was complaining about listening fatigue . I could not live like that. Music is important. Before this, when I still had a house full of people, my system was relatively portable. I could set it up on a table or my work bench and jam out, often times while standing up in between my speakers. I still like to stand-listen like that and interact with the sound field, turntable, and other music related tasks.

Basically, when faced with much the same situation as you face there, I ended up just making my system more mobile. I listen to my speakers like free space headphones. It's a glorious thing!

Even if this doesn't align with your situation, there are others who did not think about actually setting up a session each time they want to listen, at least to listen seriously. I came from an era where people brought out the movie screens and projector to watch movies and put them away after. Us kids had a portable Victrola from the closet and stacks of 45s that we used to spread all over the carpet and listen for hrs. Once I revisited these methods with my hi-fi gear, it solved most issues.

The F12s (a Jeff Bagby *RIP* design) up close and personal. Vocals and mid bass (and highs, for that matter) from these things is just stunning up close. Pardon the mess, I have collected the parts for another speaker build in the meantime.

But then I get an urge for this pair of these also Jeff Bagby designed "Continuum" speakers, and what they tend to do so well. They were designed in essence of the LS3/5a BBC monitors. If I get started listening to these, I will leave them up for months at a time. They really get along well with the subs, too. Only reason I change them back is because of the sheer power and presence of the F12s. Once going to large paper cones, it's difficult to change to something lesser. I am just conditioned to large displacement speakers. Thankfully, the subs end up making up for this with my smaller types.

Today I may feel like these little Speedsters with their Fountek ribbons.

I can stash the speakers away in a closet, or on top of the subs and just stand mount them for a near field session in a jiffy. Just another way to work with small, and even impossible spaces, that nobody thinks about, or can be bothered with anymore.

 

[shadyJ]

Now you got me curious about which one of the OP's short list speakers you would pick, and why? Would you be comfortable to pick one without hearing them but only based on the available data and qba's subjective impressions of each?

(5) Replacing current speakers because of ear fatigue | Page 4 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

I hope you will still response after the insult...

To solve the problem of fatiguing sound, I would have just EQ'd the speaker's response. I also think that many of the OP's observations about the speakers' sounds were matters of tonal balance and thus equalizable. I doubt that he would take my advice, but if I were him, I would go for some LS50s or something like that and just EQ them to taste. The nice thing about the LS50s is that they are very predictably equalizable. They can pretty much sound like anything you want (within certain limits).

 

[qba]

I saw the screens, and I would have to build a custom audio desk with swing around speaker perches, or something.

That would be cool!

Whatever happens to the sound behind me and beyond, is of no concern anymore.

Oh I haven't given up on that at all lol, I didn't know the speakers on the wall would stop me from experiencing that, I thought it was more about a feature on the $1000 speakers and above, but since I didn't experience any of that on the store, I said to my self, I guess the music behind you is for speakers even more expensive.

I have a pair of Fusion-12 Tempests as near field speakers about 8 ft apart, and on either side of my desk, along with 2, 12" sealed subs. The desk is positioned out into the room to where the chair position makes it roughly an 8' x 5' triangle. I could fit roughly 6 feet of computer screen at the front edge of my desk and still have the speakers mostly uninterrupted. They are toed-in about 45-ish deg. They have large waveguides and the image is otherwise inescapable.

Thanks for sharing that info and especially for the pictures! That looks like something I could do, I brought a stool from the kitchen, please ignore the small size of the box on top, I couldn't find the right side box to simulate the speakers. The stool looks as is too close to the door frame but once I turn the bookshelf into a single one it will have more space.

The below picture kind of looks like you the way you have it, but because of the monitor position, the stool is facing behind a spot behind me.

In this picture, I brought the stool even more forward and now the triangle is still a little bit behind me but I can get more of the speakers.

This is a picture of the edge of the table so you can see how much the monitor and the laptop block the sound to the edge of the table and even a little bit more.

I wish I had a way to virtually let you listen to what I'm hearing coming out of those speakers in the wall, so you guys may be able to understand how wrong I'm but not knowing what good quality audio is, or to confirm that it already sounds so good, that it probably needs some small tweaking when it comes to positioning.

At this point, the options are to put them on top of the speaker stands the way you have them, or just keep them on the wall but separate them by whatever you guys tell me should be the right distance between them.

Hey, you're the one who was complaining about listening fatigue

Yeah by separating them even more on the wall or on speaker bases on the floor that should do the trick they are not staying where they are that is for sure, because just changing the speakers to face forward helped a lot.

I could not live like that. Music is important. Before this, when I still had a house full of people, my system was relatively portable. I could set it up on a table or my work bench and jam out, often times while standing up in between my speakers. I still like to stand-listen like that and interact with the sound field, turntable, and other music related tasks.

Basically, when faced with much the same situation as you face there, I ended up just making my system more mobile. I listen to my speakers like free space headphones. It's a glorious thing!

Even if this doesn't align with your situation, there are others who did not think about actually setting up a session each time they want to listen, at least to listen seriously. I came from an era where people brought out the movie screens and projector to watch movies and put them away after. Us kids had a portable Victrola from the closet and stacks of 45s that we used to spread all over the carpet and listen for hrs. Once I revisited these methods with my hi-fi gear, it solved most issues.

That is pretty cool Creating a mobile flexible system that adapts to the environment!

The F12s (a Jeff Bagby *RIP* design) up close and personal. Vocals and mid bass (and highs, for that matter) from these things is just stunning up close. Pardon the mess, I have collected the parts for another speaker build in the meantime.

But then I get an urge for this pair of these also Jeff Bagby designed "Continuum" speakers, and what they tend to do so well. They were designed in essence of the LS3/5a BBC monitors. If I get started listening to these, I will leave them up for months at a time. They really get along well with the subs, too. Only reason I change them back is because of the sheer power and presence of the F12s. Once going to large paper cones, it's difficult to change to something lesser. I am just conditioned to large displacement speakers. Thankfully, the subs end up making up for this with my smaller types.

Today I may feel like these little Speedsters with their Fountek ribbons.

I can stash the speakers away in a closet, or on top of the subs and just stand mount them for a near field session in a jiffy. Just another way to work with small, and even impossible spaces, that nobody thinks about, or can be bothered with anymore.

Is very inspiring to see the love appreciation and respect you have for your gear!

Thanks again for sharing all the useful information, I feel I'm getting closer to the place I need to be with this setup, now is figuring it out the positioning, and in the not too distance future bring home the Monitor Audio Silver or Paradigm premier 100b for a propper in house testing.

 

[PENG]

To solve the problem of fatiguing sound, I would have just EQ'd the speaker's response. I also think that many of the OP's observations about the speakers' sounds were matters of tonal balance and thus equalizable. I doubt that he would take my advice, but if I were him, I would go for some LS50s or something like that and just EQ them to taste. The nice thing about the LS50s is that they are very predictably equalizable. They can pretty much sound like anything you want (within certain limits).

Thanks, funny I was also thinking about tone control/PEQ kind of deal. Also thought about suggesting that he look into media players such as Foobar and JRiver. JRiver has amazing PEQ capability.

 

[qba]

To solve the problem of fatiguing sound, I would have just EQ'd the speaker's response. I also think that many of the OP's observations about the speakers' sounds were matters of tonal balance and thus equalizable. I doubt that he would take my advice, but if I were him, I would go for some LS50s or something like that and just EQ them to taste. The nice thing about the LS50s is that they are very predictably equalizable. They can pretty much sound like anything you want (within certain limits).

Thanks for the reply shadyJ, I listen to the LS50 Meta, maybe non-Meta ones that sound different. Why no pick a speaker that I listen to and I already liked and EQ it?

If EQ is what I need, should need to buy a device to put between the speakers and the amp, and then run the results of the EQ to the amp, right? What device do you recommend?

 

[qba]

Thanks PENG,

Thanks, funny I was also thinking about tone control/PEQ kind of deal.

Can you tell me some brand and model names to look it up?

Also thought about suggesting that he look into media players such as Foobar and JRiver. JRiver has amazing PEQ capability.

So rather than my phone use a media box that already has EQ capabilities? I could look into that but I really like the simplicity of picking a song from youtube music in my phone and sending it to the amp like I'm doing now.

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks for the reply shadyJ, I listen to the LS50 Meta, maybe non-Meta ones that sound different. Why no pick a speaker that I listen to and I already liked and EQ it?

If EQ is what I need, should need to buy a device to put between the speakers and the amp, and then run the results of the EQ to the amp, right? What device do you recommend?

I suggested the LS50s because they are so amenable to equalization, certainly better than the other speakers you mentioned.

If you are listening from a PC, there are a bunch of good options to EQ the sound. If you are listening to a less flexible source, you would need to add an outboard EQ.

 

[Eppie]

Thanks Eppie! 1700 to 2k for a pair of headphones they have to be a very good pair of headphones!

Btw what is your take on the Monitor Audio Silver vs Paradigm premier 100b? I heard them both but because I listened to two other speakers in between, it wasn't a close comparison but I think I could be happier with either of them, I may have to go back to the store for another test of those two.

I haven't seen the Silvers in town yet but they come up often in recommendations. They are a nice step up from the Bronze without the expense of the Gold or Platinum line. A reputable speaker manufacturer. If I was looking for bookshelves in that price range the Silvers and Permiers would be on my list. The Gold from MA and Founder from Paradigm are a significant jump in price. For what is typically available in Canada I think you've done well in your choices so far.

The Totems can be a mixed bag. They typically do not have a very flat frequency response. In fact, it can be all over the place. That speaker appeals to someone looking for a particular type of sound. They have their fans, but there are more accurate speakers for the money. Wharfdale and PSB might be two other brands to consider, but it sounds like you may be able achieve your goal with speaker positioning and some EQ. The lure of shiny new speakers can be pretty strong though.