Positioning of Left and Right Surrounds

[ryanosaur]

@EscapeV3locity
Have you tried angling the center upwards a bit so that it fires more towards your ears?
Some simple wedges should do the trick as an easy and inexpensive test. If it works, then you can paint them or whatever.
Glad the changes this far have made an improvement!

 

[EscapeV3locity]

I made a few modifications since I last posted:

• Raised the Center channel height position by 4" by adding a platform under the pedestal so that it aligns to listener's chin
• Center channel sits on a 15 degree angle on a pedestal
• Acoustically treated the entire room with absorbers, diffusers and bass traps:
  • 3 panels on the right wall
  • 2 panels on the left wall
  • 2 panels on the roof
  • 2 panels on the back wall
• Recalibrated the sound system after the adjustments above

What i noticed was the center channel dialogue improved considerably at the default level, see table below. However during some content the dialogue was still not clear to my wife and myself. I will also say Blu-ray content is easier to hear dialogue vs. Netflix content. I have adjusted the center channel to +0.5 dB which is an increase of 4.5 dB vs. default so the adjustment is less then before but still required. I'm contacting Paradigm support to see if this is an issue with the speaker, but any other tips will help.

Location	Distance (ft)	Level (dB)
Font L	10.1	-5.0
Front R	10.6	-5.0
Center	10.3	-4.0
Surround L	5.5	-6.5
Surround R	6.1	-6.0
Surround Back L	6.3	-3.0
Surround Back R	6.4	-3.5
Top Front L	7.5	-5.0
Top Front R	6.4	-6.5
Top Rear L	8.0	-8.0
Top Rear R	7.0	-7.0
Subwoofer 1	12.0	-7.0
Subwoofer 2	13.8	-3.0

 

[ryanosaur]

It is important to keep in mind that the content may have quite a disparity in audio quality... and some movies notoriously have bad dialogue issues (Tenent, for example).

I'm glad to hear that you have heard an improvement, and very happy that you have kept your speaker only minimally boosted above 0dB.

One note I can make is that you might try moving your Center Speaker forward by about 6". It is hard to tell how much space you have between the wall and back of speaker, but giving yourself a touch more breathing room may make a huge difference. Likewise, if there is some type of null or cancellation, that might make the difference in shifting that point away from where your ears are.
You would unfortunately need to redo your calibration, but may be able to tell without... if there is a particular movie that you know shows the problem with dialog and you move the speaker forward by a few inches, then repeat until you can clearly hear it... I would expect with a 6-9" shift, if there is an acoustic cancellation happening, you would hear the difference... likewise, if the speaker is hard up on the wall (less that twice the diameter of the port), this should make a difference as well.

Cheers!

 

[EscapeV3locity]

Tenent was definitely an issue for me as well; The music and sound effects that assaulted my ears and then suddenly transitioned to characters dialogue about plot details is a difficult transition for my ears. In fact even during dialogue the music and effects were running in the background making the dialogue ineligible.

I have about 6" of space from the back wall and the speaker, the ports are about 4". This something I have definitely been contemplating. I'm finding the center channel 55C is a very capable speaker but the 85F seem to overwhelm the center. I also have the LR about 6" ahead of the Center, I thought the EQ would be able to work this positioning out with it's algorithm. I will experiment again with Center positioning and re-run some calibration over the next few days.

I think I'm getting very close to a very good experience with movies and music is already sounding amazing with 2-channel stereo. I'm not big on sitting down and listening to music but after getting these speakers I'm listening to more music in the HT and instrumental music which I never did before .

 

[lovinthehd]

Not just Tenet as far as Nolan's films go had people complaining of dialog level/clarity....many of the last several at least....

 

[ryanosaur]

I haven't even watched Tenent... just have seen a preponderance of complaiints about that and others of Nolan's efforts. Point being... Not every movie is on equal footing.

 

[ryanosaur]

Tenent was definitely an issue for me as well; The music and sound effects that assaulted my ears and then suddenly transitioned to characters dialogue about plot details is a difficult transition for my ears. In fact even during dialogue the music and effects were running in the background making the dialogue ineligible.

I have about 6" of space from the back wall and the speaker, the ports are about 4". This something I have definitely been contemplating. I'm finding the center channel 55C is a very capable speaker but the 85F seem to overwhelm the center. I also have the LR about 6" ahead of the Center, I thought the EQ would be able to work this positioning out with it's algorithm. I will experiment again with Center positioning and re-run some calibration over the next few days.

I think I'm getting very close to a very good experience with movies and music is already sounding amazing with 2-channel stereo. I'm not big on sitting down and listening to music but after getting these speakers I'm listening to more music in the HT and instrumental music which I never did before .

You don't necessarily need to have the front and centers at the same distance, but try getting a little more space... you said 4" ports, so I would target a minimum of 8-9" from the wall. Maybe experiment with an extra 3" just to see if 12" gives you anything 9" doesn't.

(Huh... that' doesn't sound to good taken out of context. I almost want to invite Alex just to see what he comes up with.)

 

[EscapeV3locity]

I haven't even watched Tenent... just have seen a preponderance of complaiints about that and others of Nolan's efforts. Point being... Not every movie is on equal footing.

Would you say that its normal to then change the center channel level up/down depending on the content you are watching?

 

[ryanosaur]

Would you say that its normal to then change the center channel level up/down depending on the content you are watching?

I’ve never once adjusted my trims based on content. (I’m certain that’s not what you were wanting to hear. )

 

[lovinthehd]

Would you say that its normal to then change the center channel level up/down depending on the content you are watching?

I'd rather turn on captions myself I haven't touched my center level from original setup for anything. I don't generally have any issues but my center is well placed and aimed at my ears and of sufficient capability in each of my systems....

 

[EscapeV3locity]

I did more testing and I'm finding Dynamic EQ is adding more "rumble"/low frequency boosts to some scenes and making the dialogue ineligible.

I disabled Dynamic EQ, set center channel trim back to the original -4 dB and then changed the volume to 0 dB (reference) and it sounds much better. Some movies like LOTR Fellowship of the Ring is very loud at 0 dB so I turn that down to say -3 dB. but most content is enjoyable at reference.

With the acoustic treatment in my room listening close to reference isn't as bad vs. previously without the treatment. Without acoustic treatment I would not be able to crank the volume this high without fatigue and possibly hurting my ears.

Some movies and scenes might be loud at reference as I haven't done extensive testing, but what are your thoughts on disabling Dynamic EQ? I wonder if there is any benefit of this feature when it comes to a proper home theater where you don't have to worry about "the neighbors"? I have also disabled Loudness Management and Cinema EQ.

 

[Eppie]

There is no right or wrong with Dynamic EQ. It's a personal preference, so whatever you think sounds best. I know some members have Dynamic Volume on but Dynamic EQ off. I have it off on my Denon. (I'm running Studio 20 V5 and a Studio CC-590 centre for my mains.)

 

[lovinthehd]

I did more testing and I'm finding Dynamic EQ is adding more "rumble"/low frequency boosts to some scenes and making the dialogue ineligible.

I disabled Dynamic EQ, set center channel trim back to the original -4 dB and then changed the volume to 0 dB (reference) and it sounds much better. Some movies like LOTR Fellowship of the Ring is very loud at 0 dB so I turn that down to say -3 dB. but most content is enjoyable at reference.

With the acoustic treatment in my room listening close to reference isn't as bad vs. previously without the treatment. Without acoustic treatment I would not be able to crank the volume this high without fatigue and possibly hurting my ears.

Some movies and scenes might be loud at reference as I haven't done extensive testing, but what are your thoughts on disabling Dynamic EQ? I wonder if there is any benefit of this feature when it comes to a proper home theater where you don't have to worry about "the neighbors"? I have also disabled Loudness Management and Cinema EQ.

Yep just preference altho DEQ is more for lower volumes, to boost lower and higher frequencies to reflect how we hear those sounds at different volume levels. DEQ should basically turn itself off at 0 and at -3 would not have a lot going on (with RLO set to 0). You can also adjust the Reference Level Offset to adjust that, too.

 

[EscapeV3locity]

Yep just preference altho DEQ is more for lower volumes, to boost lower and higher frequencies to reflect how we hear those sounds at different volume levels. DEQ should basically turn itself off at 0 and at -3 would not have a lot going on (with RLO set to 0). You can also adjust the Reference Level Offset to adjust that, too.

Thanks, -3 dB threshold was the exact same question I was going to ask next. Thanks for anticipating that question and answering it before I asked.

My RLO is set to 0.

I wonder if I’m in the minority from those that have dedicated HT that are acoustically treated and prefer Dynamic EQ off. I’m glad this option is there as I’m really liking the sound with this feature disabled. I still have enough bass, not as impactful as before but maybe that is not the artistic intent.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks, -3 dB threshold was the exact same question I was going to ask next. Thanks for anticipating that question and answering it before I asked.

My RLO is set to 0.

I wonder if I’m in the minority from those that have dedicated HT that are acoustically treated and prefer Dynamic EQ off. I’m glad this option is there as I’m really liking the sound with this feature disabled. I still have enough bass, not as impactful as before but maybe that is not the artistic intent.

My listening levels are lower and I do use it regularly....but I'm more in the -20 range at most for most movies (and will change RLO for some music). Some will add a few dB to the sub channel as a way of tilting the curve a bit so to speak...just in the end what counts is what makes you happy with a feature like this. I don't have a treated theater room....but do have systems in a variety of rooms, one I use Audyssey/DEQ, another I don't use Audyssey at all and two others don't have Audyssey options at all.

 

[EscapeV3locity]

In my quest to remain within reference (contrary to the plea of my ears) I continue to make some bass tweaks. I'm with hope that I don't over tune my subs but remain faithfully within the boundaries of reference regardless of how narrow that window may be. What I lack is experience in measurement so I will describe what I'm doing in as much detail as possible below. I also took majority of my advice from this video in setting up my 7.2.4 setup:

. In following this video's advice I may put myself outside that reference audio which is perfectly fine with me as I need my bass .

Goal: Fix the anemic bass issue after performing EQ

I'm told that I should only change the subwoofer settings via the Audyssey app. but not the receiver and I also assume the SVS app. is also not advisable which I also have for the SVS 2 x PB-3000 subs. The only knob I saw in the Audyssey app. was the subwoofer levels. The video at about 40:00 min. mentioned that I should download and play pink audio noise. I started making the preparations:
- Setup UMIK with REW
- Download pink noise files

During my setup of REW I performed a check level in the preferences section. This procedure played a sweep at -12 dB and my marantz was set to 0 dB volume (reference). I saw the Input and Reference were both below -12dB and I proceeded to adjust the 2 subwoofer levels from Marantz receiver equally until a -12 dBFS was achieved. I had to boost both subwoofers +8.5 dB each to achieve this. The bass sounds good at this point and not overwhelming.

I know I was suppose to playback pink noise but I got stuck at a point where I had to playback the pink noise. I can play the file but what I don't know how to do is calibrate using my UMIK and marantz to 75 dB. I also don't know the next steps after I start playing the pink noise at 75 dB? How do I tune in the subwoofers to produce that reference level bass or resolve the anemic bass issue?

Attaching the end result after I bumped both subs up by -8.5. I ran some measurements before and after this adjustment. In those measurements I only have my 2 subs playing a frequency of 0 - 250 Hz. I disconnected my LCR for these measurements.

PS. I don't think this site allows for attaching .mdat files, unless I find a way to convert them.