Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[jcl]

Real men don't use grills.

Hah! Realistic Fathers know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure....

Go to any Frys sound rooms and behold the graveyard of dome tweeters as proof!

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Hah! Realistic Fathers know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure....

Go to any Frys sound rooms and behold the graveyard of dome tweeters as proof!

Real tweeters and midranges already have protective grills on them.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm interested in how you proceed with the subwoofer build. I have considered this myself, however I do not have the tools or talent to build the cabinet myself (I've considered asking Del). I'm also considering the Rythmik FV15HP and (uggh) a maple Seaton SubM HP (to match those speakers on the left you posted), but having a hard time justifying the price of Seaton. My basement is approximately 5500 cubic feet, I'm gonna need some oomph!

Congrats Fuzz, your speakers should arrive before mine while Dennis finds a source for the SB driver.

Whoops, looks like I've been away for a bit too long. Right now I'm lacking in the sub area and just don't have the time to build (although so help me I'll get around to it) so I think I'll just do what ADTG does when he runs into any issue and throw money at it

I think the seaton is a terrific sub, but I could never justify putting it in a room your size all by it's lonesome. I'd rather have dual or triple of whatever sub you're considering to get that nice even bass response across the whole space. Then again, that's just me. Currently my space isn't nearly that big so the Phil 3s, crossed low to dual 12" subs (pending) for HT and then probably phil 3s alone for music should be just fine for the time being.

Thanks, I'd say I feel bad for you, but lets face it, if it means I get mine sooner rather then later then I hex you

 

[walter duque]

BTW, Monkish54 said over on AVS that he loves his Phil2 and thinks they sound just as good as Salons, KEF Reference, Pioneer EX, etc.

Pretty much what I said about the Phil3.

When fuzz gets his Phils I am going to check them out, if they sound as good as the Salons I am getting in line myself and get a pair. I am due for some new front towers anyway. Mine are about 15 years old.

Maybe if I sell the tail lights and the rear bumper I can get Phil3.

Just kidding.

 

[jcunwired]

Whoops, looks like I've been away for a bit too long. Right now I'm lacking in the sub area and just don't have the time to build (although so help me I'll get around to it) so I think I'll just do what ADTG does when he runs into any issue and throw money at it

I think the seaton is a terrific sub, but I could never justify putting it in a room your size all by it's lonesome. I'd rather have dual or triple of whatever sub you're considering to get that nice even bass response across the whole space. Then again, that's just me. Currently my space isn't nearly that big so the Phil 3s, crossed low to dual 12" subs (pending) for HT and then probably phil 3s alone for music should be just fine for the time being.

Thanks, I'd say I feel bad for you, but lets face it, if it means I get mine sooner rather then later then I hex you

LOL! I don't think I need any more pins in the voodoo doll, my hexes appear to be on autopilot.

I hear ya - this is my biggest concern. I drop about $2.5k on a SubM only to realize I need two of them, which I can get for about the same price from Rythmik. There is one Seaton SubM champion on AVS who thinks one will be enough, I have my doubts. Regardless, I will be morphing ADTG in finding a solution (only no pink grills). I'm in no big hurry after basement remodel and upgrading virtually every piece of equipment, but I gotta say I am missing the rumble in movie watching. I'll just have to listen to music once the Phils arrive while I wait for this gigolo thing to start taking off.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...just don't have the time to build (although so help me I'll get around to it) so I think I'll just do what ADTG does when he runs into any issue and throw money at it

Hey, I just threw $900 at a guy for a new hot water heater!

I just threw another $500 at Amazon for two Velodyne SCIF/IC subs (MSRP is $800 each) because.........well............I got a $150 Amazon gift card......and.......and I got bored with my PL200 sub in the family room.

Oh, wait......now I need more amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When fuzz gets his Phils I am going to check them out, if they sound as good as the Salons I am getting in line myself and get a pair.

Walter, as good as the Phil3 sound, I think the only speakers for you are rated @ 130dB SPL.

I'm guessing the Phil3 is @ 110dB SPL.

I listen @ 90dB, so I'm good.

 

[fuzz092888]

LOL! I don't think I need any more pins in the voodoo doll, my hexes appear to be on autopilot.

I hear ya - this is my biggest concern. I drop about $2.5k on a SubM only to realize I need two of them, which I can get for about the same price from Rythmik. There is one Seaton SubM champion on AVS who thinks one will be enough, I have my doubts. Regardless, I will be morphing ADTG in finding a solution (only no pink grills). I'm in no big hurry after basement remodel and upgrading virtually every piece of equipment, but I gotta say I am missing the rumble in movie watching. I'll just have to listen to music once the Phils arrive while I wait for this gigolo thing to start taking off.

I guess the difference for me is that when a depth charge (or equivalent) goes off in a movie I want to feel like it landed in my lap, not like it landed in the general direction of my sub and then hit me.

Wait, your not a gigolo already? Now where did I get that from......

Hey, I just threw $900 at a guy for a new hot water heater!

I just threw another $500 at Amazon for two Velodyne SCIF/IC subs (MSRP is $800 each) because.........well............I got a $150 Amazon gift card......and.......and I got bored with my PL200 sub in the family room.

Oh, wait......now I need more amps.

You would..........ummm.....that's all I've got

Walter, as good as the Phil3 sound, I think the only speakers for you are rated @ 130dB SPL.

I'm guessing the Phil3 is @ 110dB SPL.

I listen @ 90dB, so I'm good.

I agree I'll have the remote glued to my hand when Walter comes over for fear he'll try to turn the volume up to +18

 

[jcl]

Real tweeters and midranges already have protective grills on them.

So then Real Men using real tweeters & midranges are using grills. (not that there's anything wrong with that)

 

[fuzz092888]

So then Real Men using real tweeters & midranges are using grills. (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Actually I think he was referencing these

See how both of these are already protected behind built in "grills"

As opposed to a traditional dome tweeter like this

Very exposed to fingers and other miscellaneous objects and in possible need of a cabinet grill

 

[monkish54]

When fuzz gets his Phils I am going to check them out, if they sound as good as the Salons I am getting in line myself and get a pair.

It depends what you mean by "As good as the Salon". Can they play as loud? No. Do they have as much bass? No. Do they have incredible resolution? Yes. I can hear every little detail. Do they make me smile when I listen? Yes. Would I rather have the Salon 2? No. They have some differences: Volume level & bass, but would it be worth it to me to opt for the Salon at an extra 20K? No, it would not. More bass and higher volume level aren't worth 20K to me. As for the bass, throw in a few subs and I have the extra bass. The bass on the Phils is very good. One 8" can't compete with three 8" though.

Just my .02

ADTG's opinion is much much much more valid. I've heard 5 or 6 different VERY nice speakers, but he lives with the Salon 2. To my experience, he's correct in saying they are very similar.

 

[GranteedEV]

It depends what you mean by "As good as the Salon". Can they play as loud? No. Do they have as much bass? No. Do they have incredible resolution? Yes. I can hear every little detail. Do they make me smile when I listen? Yes. Would I rather have the Salon 2? No. They have some differences: Volume level & bass, but would it be worth it to me to opt for the Salon at an extra 20K? No, it would not. More bass and higher volume level aren't worth 20K to me.

What about 8K for some Salk SS8s?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

What about 8K for some Salk SS8s?

Or one pair of Phil 3's with the Scanspeak woof for 3k? I really wonder sometimes about the playback volumes you guys generate. Or want to generate. I introduced the Phil 3's at the Capital Audio Fest last year in the largest room available (something like 24' by 28', thick carpets, acoutical ceiling tile, heavy curtains.) I played those things at volumes I could never tolerate at home for some dudes who wanted to test their limits. The dudes threw in the towel before the Scans did. I hope we're not forgetting that accurate speakers are intended to reproduce music, not noise, and not the kind of dangerous and distorted din you get at rock concerts. The Phil 2's can produce higher dB's than you should expose yourself to, unless you're feeding them source material with lots of content below 32 Hz (which rules out rock). If you want to experience the full shudder of an organ with all stops open,or the full boom of a bass drum, without a sub, then the Scan is a better choice thanthe SB Acoustics in the Phil 2. Home theater is a different matter. Prehistoric reptiles on a rampage really need a sub--not one or two or three 8" woofers.

 

[monkish54]

What about 8K for some Salk SS8s?

Nope. Still too much of a price difference.

The Blade for 4K...we can talk!

 

[monkish54]

[/QUOTE] Prehistoric reptiles on a rampage really need a sub--not one or two or three 8" woofers.[/QUOTE]

LMFAO!!

 

[GranteedEV]

The Phil 2's can produce higher dB's than you should expose yourself to, unless you're feeding them source material with lots of content below 32 Hz (which rules out rock). If you want to experience the full shudder of an organ with all stops open,or the full boom of a bass drum, without a sub, then the Scan is a better choice thanthe SB Acoustics in the Phil 2. Home theater is a different matter.

Can the Phil 3s handle track 03 of the Inception OST? without bottoming out? That track makes my Mal-X move.

 

[monkish54]

Can the Phil 3s handle track 03 of the Inception OST? without bottoming out? That track makes my Mal-X move.

Gonna find out how the twos handle it!

 

[GranteedEV]

Gonna find out how the twos handle it!

that whole CD will give full range speakers a workout. Very good stuff.

 

[monkish54]

I recommend all who own Phils to listen to All That Jazz (Track 1) from the Chicago movie. As of 30 seconds ago it's my new "Show off the Phils" track.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Or one pair of Phil 3's with the Scanspeak woof for 3k? I really wonder sometimes about the playback volumes you guys generate. Or want to generate. I introduced the Phil 3's at the Capital Audio Fest last year in the largest room available (something like 24' by 28', thick carpets, acoutical ceiling tile, heavy curtains.) I played those things at volumes I could never tolerate at home for some dudes who wanted to test their limits. The dudes threw in the towel before the Scans did. I hope we're not forgetting that accurate speakers are intended to reproduce music, not noise, and not the kind of dangerous and distorted din you get at rock concerts. The Phil 2's can produce higher dB's than you should expose yourself to, unless you're feeding them source material with lots of content below 32 Hz (which rules out rock). If you want to experience the full shudder of an organ with all stops open,or the full boom of a bass drum, without a sub, then the Scan is a better choice thanthe SB Acoustics in the Phil 2. Home theater is a different matter. Prehistoric reptiles on a rampage really need a sub--not one or two or three 8" woofers.

Regarding volume levels, live acoustic instruments in a relatively intimate space, even a 25x25x10 room, can be quite loud. The differences I've noted between speakers to date, and I've never heard the Phil 2s or 3s, are not how absolutely loud they go, but their distortion level as they get very loud. The "sense of ease" the speakers have. I've heard very few speakers that get loud well, even though they can usually produce high absolute volumes. I've been astounded by what the Salon 2s can do in this regard recently, and are capable of accurately reproducing my wife's drum kit without strain. Admittedly my sub was active at the time, but I use it more for evening out bass response than I do for increasing absolute volume. If you would like, send me your email address and I can respond with a hi-res drum solo recording I made that sounds particularly interesting. The live event was *very* loud.

Due to the largely open designs of many modern homes, some of us have very large effective listening spaces. Although my room is ostensibly only 17x24 for placing furniture (and speakers), with an 18-20' ceiling in the primary listening area, the actual space is really well over twice that width on the main floor where the speakers are, though with only a 10' ceiling for two-thirds of it, and there is an additional opening of that secondary area on the second floor, but with a 9' ceiling. So the effective volume the speakers play in is on the order of 12,000 cubic feet.

As for how loud I listen, I've measured 105db peaks at my ear position, and estimating by eye it looks like the average level is in the 85-90db range. I've measured a ~5db level drop from one meter in front of the speakers to my listening seat. The source material for these live-level sessions is usually jazz, and often contemporary jazz with synthesizers. I would estimate that the live performance of my the previously referenced drum solo recording had peaks in excess of 110db. The rim shots hurt my ears.

Please don't conclude from any of this that I'm doubting the ability of the Phils to play loud, I'm just explaining that some of us are not being silly or unreasonable with the need for producing a lot of sound with low distortion.

I think there are also two very different classes of reproduction people try to achieve. One is to be transported to the recording venue, which can be huge, and therefore volumes can be lower than most people really expect, and the other is to bring the performers into one's room. In the latter case realistic reproduction can take a lot of volume. Obviously, a symphony orchestra is not practical in a residential room, but I admit to enjoying piano solos at levels that mimic what I hear from our own piano.