Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[lovinthehd]

Do you really need 8k anything? It's hardly existent. Maybe if you're a gamer and need the highest possible thing going on, I'm not even close to that HDMI 2.0 is better than most of my gear now.

 

[lovinthehd]

There are a couple things I’m still looking for some feedback on with the Denon X4700H. The Denon only has one 8K input while some other brands have many more.

The Denon has six HDMI 2.0 and only one HDMI 2.1 input. There are also three HDMI outputs: one of which is HDMI 2.1 with eARC, and the other two being HDMI 2.0. Are these 2 things kind of limiting when comparing to newer models if I’m thinking about owning this receiver long term? I’m not a big gamer but do like to play on occasion. I’m mostly a home theater guy and plan to start with a 5.1.4 system

So how much do you need/want that input difference? That's the key with an avr, choosing the connectivity options that work best for you. Let alone imaginary things like 8k.

 

[Rictor133]

Hi Rylan.

Your room size and set up seems well thought out. I am running an Axiom 7.1 set up in a large open finished basement, a tough room to get good sound compared to yours. I had to retire my Pioneer 1021k receiver which has lasted several years, however my Yamaha upstairs is over 13 yrs old and is still going strong.

I just yesterday finished setting up my new receiver and I am so pleased with how it sounds. I felt great going back to my tried and true Yamaha Adventage, the A4.

Since many AVR’s last decades it was really important to me to get 7 hdmi 2.1 ports capable of doing 4K/8k, to try and make it as future proof as possible. Yamaha just released their version 1.8 firmware that only took 20 minutes to update from a flash drive.

Another important factor for me was getting a receiver that wouldn’t run like an oven, I don’t plan on having a temperature controlled cabinet, and appreciated the well designed fan and heat sinks that Yamaha puts into their Aventage receivers. Pretty sure heat help fry my Pioneer.

If I was in the states I would have purchased from Gene his new Yamaha A6A, it is a beast, although he may have already sold it.

i had heard good thing about Dirac, but the new YPAO works really well.

If you are curious there is agreat vid that Gene did with Phil Shea of Yamaha located herehttps://www.youtube.com/live/uWxHOXGKiJc?feature=share

Cheers, best of luck with whatever you decide!

 

[Rylan]

Hi Rylan.

Your room size and set up seems well thought out. I am running an Axiom 7.1 set up in a large open finished basement, a tough room to get good sound compared to yours. I had to retire my Pioneer 1021k receiver which has lasted several years, however my Yamaha upstairs is over 13 yrs old and is still going strong.

I just yesterday finished setting up my new receiver and I am so pleased with how it sounds. I felt great going back to my tried and true Yamaha Adventage, the A4.

Since many AVR’s last decades it was really important to me to get 7 hdmi 2.1 ports capable of doing 4K/8k, to try and make it as future proof as possible. Yamaha just released their version 1.8 firmware that only took 20 minutes to update from a flash drive.

Another important factor for me was getting a receiver that wouldn’t run like an oven, I don’t plan on having a temperature controlled cabinet, and appreciated the well designed fan and heat sinks that Yamaha puts into their Aventage receivers. Pretty sure heat help fry my Pioneer.

If I was in the states I would have purchased from Gene his new Yamaha A6A, it is a beast, although he may have already sold it.

i had heard good thing about Dirac, but the new YPAO works really well.

If you are curious there is agreat vid that Gene did with Phil Shea of Yamaha located herehttps://www.youtube.com/live/uWxHOXGKiJc?feature=share

Cheers, best of luck with whatever you decide!

Thank you for the message. I appreciate the comment. I’m happy to hear you like the sound of your new receiver! Also, I will check out the video you sent, thank you for sharing.

I believe I have my plan for speaker placement. I’ve put a lot of thought into where things will go. For now, I don’t think I will do rears but will instead do 4 in ceiling atmos at 60° Front and back. I’ll start with a 5.1.4 and will run my 12 Guage shielded wire behind the sheetrock so I can easily attach rears at a later time. Here are a couple more diagrams I made that show my speaker placement. I made about 6 drawings showing the different things I’m considering

 

[PENG]

There is no D&M anymore. Denon and Marantz are owned by Massimo and prior by Sound United.

Gene, for clarity, I think we (or most of us) know D+M are owned by Massimo now but just like when they were owned by SU, people still refer to the brands D, M, D&M or D+M because their product owners and potential users identify their gear with Denon and Marantz, not their parent company.

Now that you mention this though, is there a change in your method of contacting Denon or Marantz when you have to ask them something? I thought you would still be contact them the same way when they were under SU.
It seems to me the Denon and Marantz support website/contact info has remained to same. My old links are still working the same way.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Gene, for clarity, I think we (or most of us) know D+M are owned by Massimo now but just like when they were owned by SU, people still refer to the brands D, M, D&M or D+M because their product owners and potential users identify their gear with Denon and Marantz, not their parent company.

Now that you mention this though, is there a change in your method of contacting Denon or Marantz when you have to ask them something? I thought you would still be contact them the same way when they were under SU.
It seems to me the Denon and Marantz support website/contact info has remained to same. My old links are still working the same way.

My sales contact’s email (director of sales) still reads “@soundunited.com”.

And the big logo under his name/title reads “Masimo/Sound United”.

The Shipping packing slip reads”From: Sound United”.

But I guess eventually it will be completely Masimo on all the names.

But yeah many of us refer to Denon/Marantz as “DM” and Yamaha as “Y”.

 

[PENG]

Do you really need 8k anything? It's hardly existent. Maybe if you're a gamer and need the highest possible thing going on, I'm not even close to that HDMI 2.0 is better than most of my gear now.

Great point! I own a 4K PS4 and owned the 4K AV8801 (gave it away). Both were sold as 4K at the time, but by the time 4K took hold and gain some popularity, the format (or whatever you call..) has changed so the 4K feature I bought became obsolete with limited usage only!! Having learnt that lesson, this time around on the 8K thing I thought fool me once shame on them, and I chose the 4K Anthem AVM70, that saved me $500.

I don't need 8K to play game, but even if I did, I would not get into 8K until the dust get settled. I bet most who own the 8K AVRs/AVPs won't be taking advantage of the feature they already paid for, and by the time the contents become popular, their 8K HDMI card may fact the same thing I faced with my first generation 4K *&$%#@!

 

[PENG]

My sales contact’s email (director of sales) still reads “@soundunited.com”.

And the big logo under his name/title reads “Masimo/Sound United”.

But I guess eventually it will be completely Masimo on all the names.

But yeah many of us refer to Denon/Marantz as “DM” and Yamaha as “Y”.

Okay now I know what Gene's talking about, because you guys do see the parent company logo etc., for your contacts. My point is that for us product owners we don't typically see them as we typically would contact them on product support and/or warranty issues, and those contacts remain the same regardless, with no or little reference to Denon/Marantz owners (as far as I know at the moment).

 

[Danzilla31]

Thank you for the message. I appreciate the comment. I’m happy to hear you like the sound of your new receiver! Also, I will check out the video you sent, thank you for sharing.

I believe I have my plan for speaker placement. I’ve put a lot of thought into where things will go. For now, I don’t think I will do rears but will instead do 4 in ceiling atmos at 60° Front and back. I’ll start with a 5.1.4 and will run my 12 Guage shielded wire behind the sheetrock so I can easily attach rears at a later time. Here are a couple more diagrams I made that show my speaker placement. I made about 6 drawings showing the different things I’m considering

Hey @Rylan I've been following this thread just didn't want to jump in yet because everyone has been beating me to the punch with great advice

I have owned both the 4700H and the 3700H I have also owned older versions of onkyo recievers. I enjoyed both companies equally you really can't go wrong here

With that being said out of all the options I'd go with the 4700H

If you don't need 4 independent subs or Dirac then the X4700H is not worth the extra cost over its predecessor. The last gen can really do everything the new one can.

Also keep in mind the new gen models haven't rolled out Dirac and we don't know how well that rollout is going to be. Will they avoid the bug issues other companies have had with new releases? Also how much will Dirac multi bass cost you as an add on?

Also Audyssey has proven to be very good especially with the editor app for most of us so if the extra sub channels or Dirac isn't what you want then I would go with the 4700H and save some money.

Also don't worry about the # of 8k inputs. It's going to be a LONG LOMG time before we ever have a lot of 8k content out they're for us consumers

Good luck on your choices

 

[Rylan]

Hey @Rylan I've been following this thread just didn't want to jump in yet because everyone has been beating me to the punch with great advice

I have owned both the 4700H and the 3700H I have also owned older versions of onkyo recievers. I enjoyed both companies equally you really can't go wrong here

With that being said out of all the options I'd go with the 4700H

If you don't need 4 independent subs or Dirac then the X4700H is not worth the extra cost over its predecessor. The last gen can really do everything the new one can.

Also keep in mind the new gen models haven't rolled out Dirac and we don't know how well that rollout is going to be. Will they avoid the bug issues other companies have had with new releases? Also how much will Dirac multi bass cost you as an add on?

Also Audyssey has proven to be very good especially with the editor app for most of us so if the extra sub channels or Dirac isn't what you want then I would go with the 4700H and save some money.

Also don't worry about the # of 8k inputs. It's going to be a LONG LOMG time before we ever have a lot of 8k content out they're for us consumers

Good luck on your choices

Hey @Danzilla31, thank you for sharing your opinion and personal experience. Those points are helpful. Nothing wrong with taking the back seat and waiting for the right moment to chime in. It does help me a lot. I’m haply to hear you like the 4700h and can also recommend this over the other AVR’s mentioned. I’m feeling more confident about the 4700 over the 3800. Also good points from you, Peng, and Lovinthehd regarding 8K. Thank you again for sharing your experience

 

[Rylan]

For the 4700, if it was manufactured before the spring of 2021, it will have the AKM DAC chip, otherwise will have the same TI DAC chip as the 3800 and 4800.

The hdmi chip set related issues with the earlier units, iirc, are only issues for gamers and Denon will send you an external box for free. You should read the related threads on ASR or AVSF for details.

For power and preput measurements please read the review on ASR.

Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

This is a second review of the Denon AVR-X4700 AVR. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs US $1,700 from Amazon including free shipping. I will explain the reason for the revision in a bit. For now, I will cut and paste some of the information from the first...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I plan to reach out to Denon and ask about their Dac in the 4700 and see what they say. Not sure if that will give any further answers, but just to clarify, the AKM Dac Chip is the one that I want and is good? The TI Dac was installed later sometime around March of 2021 and that is the one I don’t want if given the choice?

I read that the serial numbers that include 70xxx in the last 5 digits will not have the AKM. So if I pick up the 4700h, maybe I can hope to get one before the 70xxx numbers. Does that sound right and I’m understanding correctly?

 

[PENG]

I plan to reach out to Denon and ask about their Dac in the 4700 and see what they say. Not sure if that will give any further answers, but just to clarify, the AKM Dac Chip is the one that I want and is good? The TI Dac was installed later sometime around March of 2021 and that is the one I don’t want if given the choice?

I can only tell you the ones with the AKM IC measured with distortions much lower than the one measured with the TI IC. It was predictable too because TI's IC, the PCM5102A's SINAD is 93 dB, whereas the AK4458's 107 dB. Most argued that 93 dB would still put it in the "below the threshold of audibility" territory. I generally agree but would be a little more cautious to make a generalized assumption because that 93 dB was measured under ideal condition, when in real world applications, it is not fixed at 93 dB. For example it varies with a few things, such as the input voltage (the signal strength..):

Take a look of the datasheet and ask yourself if there is any chance that under some conditions the distortions+noise may rise above your own threshold? To me, it is good enough for real world use, but that's just me. There are people who feel it is not good enough. Have you listened to the 4700 and the RZ50 in a good demo setup?

PCM510xA 2.1 VRMS, 112/106/100 dB Audio Stereo DAC with PLL and 32-bit, 384 kHz PCM Interface datasheet (Rev. C) (ti.com)

 

[PENG]

I read that the serial numbers that include 70xxx in the last 5 digits will not have the AKM. So if I pick up the 4700h, maybe I can hope to get one before the 70xxx numbers. Does that sound right and I’m understanding correctly?

I remember reading about something like that long time ago, so I don't remember the details anymore. If you post a link to the source, I may be able to tell whether that information is credible or not.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I plan to reach out to Denon and ask about their Dac in the 4700 and see what they say. Not sure if that will give any further answers, but just to clarify, the AKM Dac Chip is the one that I want and is good? The TI Dac was installed later sometime around March of 2021 and that is the one I don’t want if given the choice?

I read that the serial numbers that include 70xxx in the last 5 digits will not have the AKM. So if I pick up the 4700h, maybe I can hope to get one before the 70xxx numbers. Does that sound right and I’m understanding correctly?

It's anyone's prerogative to want a few less 0.001% THD's. But I wouldn't stress out and lose sleep over the DAC's.

Both DAC's will sound the same.

The speakers, subs, amps, processors, room acoustics, and the rest of the system are 100% more important than any DAC's - doesn't matter if the DAC is 0.000000000000001% or 0.001% THD+N.

 

[lovinthehd]

I plan to reach out to Denon and ask about their Dac in the 4700 and see what they say. Not sure if that will give any further answers, but just to clarify, the AKM Dac Chip is the one that I want and is good? The TI Dac was installed later sometime around March of 2021 and that is the one I don’t want if given the choice?

I read that the serial numbers that include 70xxx in the last 5 digits will not have the AKM. So if I pick up the 4700h, maybe I can hope to get one before the 70xxx numbers. Does that sound right and I’m understanding correctly?

I also wouldn't worry about the dac too much. Doubt in an ABX you could pickout the avr based on dac....I do like the idea of the better dac, tho.....too bad the AKM factory had to go and burn down (but is back up and running to my understanding so maybe future generations will go back to it).

 

[Trell]

It's anyone's prerogative to want a few less 0.001% THD's. But I wouldn't stress out and lose sleep over the DAC's.

Both DAC's will sound the same.

The speakers, subs, amps, processors, room acoustics, and the rest of the system are 100% more important than any DAC's - doesn't matter if the DAC is 0.000000000000001% or 0.001% THD+N.

0.001% THD+N is a SINAD of -100 dB, which if the new Denons had that people would not complain as it would be a better performance by ca 3 dB for the Denon AVR 3700 (AKM version). The 3800 has a SINAD in the ASR review of -87.3 dB with the 3700 (AKM) of -97.6 dB.

For other people reading these posts and want to compare with numbers elsewhere, here is a calculator converting between THD in percentage to dB. Should make it easier to compare.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm

 

[Danzilla31]

I also wouldn't worry about the dac too much. Doubt in an ABX you could pickout the avr based on dac....I do like the idea of the better dac, tho.....too bad the AKM factory had to go and burn down (but is back up and running to my understanding so maybe future generations will go back to it).

Yeah the dac wouldn't be a dealbreaker but it would be nice to get the nicer chip. Can't hurt for him to ask

 

[dlaloum]

Be careful with Andrew's "reviews". Production value is off the charts but he puts forth very little technical knowledge and his reviews are purely subjective often with little basis in facts, IMO.

Both the Denon and Onkyo have a 9CH amp built in so if you want to run 4 heights, you can't run backs without external amplification. They can however support a 5.1.4 speaker layout with all internal amplification. Both AVRs have 11CH processing so you can run a 7.1.4 speaker layout with a 2CH amp. The Denon has 4 independent sub outs which is nice if you run 4 subs and want independent delay and trims and EQ for each.

Both are good choices IMO though I haven't bench tested the Onkyo. I did bench test an older Integra model and found it had a great preamp section but weak amp section, not very good at driving 4 ohm loads. This Onkyo looks a bit more stout than the Integra DRX4.3, however. I may test one next year.

Stay tuned for a BIG contest announcement from us in January that relates to this!

I have the current baby Integra with Dirac (DRX 3.4) - and I would agree with the comment "Great Preamp but weak amp section"

The RZ50 has more grunt - but if your speakers are low impedance, may still require external amplification (as does the Denon too)

Contest schmontest - us antipodeans can never take part! (Bah, Humbug!)

 

[lovinthehd]

I have the current baby Integra with Dirac (DRX 3.4) - and I would agree with the comment "Great Preamp but weak amp section"

The RZ50 has more grunt - but if your speakers are low impedance, may still require external amplification (as does the Denon too)

Contest schmontest - us antipodeans can never take part! (Bah, Humbug!)

Still seems to me you imagine/hear advantages when you read higher wattage amp....especially at the listening levels you mentioned earlier.

 

[dlaloum]

The one and only time I ever bought an Onkyo was from Circuit City (which later became bankrupted).

I put the box in my car. Drove about 5 miles. Turned around. Drove back to Circuit City and got a refund. So I had the Onkyo for about 15 minutes.

And this was way before Onkyo started filing bankruptcy about every other year.

Does it matter to you if you bought an AVR from a company that later files bankruptcy the next year?

So you have to ask yourself what are the salients factors in buying any AVR.

Customer Service? Reliability? Warranty? Bankruptcy? Features?

Onkyo - the parent company - did not go bankrupt...

a couple of subsidiaries, specialising in OEM custom manufacturing and Japanese custom installations respectively, went bankrupt.

Onkyo meanwhile sold the rights to Onkyo / Integra / Pioneer to a consortium formed by Voxx (USA) 75% and Sharp 25% (Premium Audio Company)- Voxx handles sales and distribution, and Sharp runs the Malaysian factory.

So if looking to the health of Onkyo, you should look to the health of PAC, Voxx and Sharp.

(If they go belly up, the rights would return to Onky Japan in any case)

So lets avoid the unnecessary (and downright wrong/misinformed) FUD. (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt).