R
Rylan
Audioholic
Thank you!Will look at those specs later.
Thank you!Will look at those specs later.
In this case, he specifically said the following in the conclusions:Yes unfortunately the AKM and other supply chain issues causes problems with existing parts and swapping to alternatives without a redesign is challenging. Marantz sent me a post covid SR8015 and I found it's distortion to be significantly higher than the SR8015 I reviewed that's still in my AV rack. Although the distortion is higher, it's inaudible so it's always important to put these things into perspective. AMIR almost never does and his recommendations chase SINAD which is a mistake IMO.
I agree with him in general on this, but unfortunately, there will be some who missed the underlined (I did that) part and thought the X3800H's higher distortions would not be good audibly speaking. It would have been nice if he would do like what you had done in the past with D+M, and Yamaha, that is, while letting them know there are things they needed to improve on, also emphasized to the readers that sometimes the relatively higher distortions would still be below the threshold of audibility and still made appropriate recommendations in a more balanced way.Denon had been my "goto" recommendation for AVRs and even AVPs. When anyone asked me about either, I would just say "get a Denon AVR." While subjectively the performance of this new generation may be similar, I can't accept the regression in objective measured performance.
It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H.
I did a search and could only find limited measurements from S&V:I will send an email to Onkyo about the dac and see if they have any information they are willing to share. For now my plan is to use only the internal amps. I may also purchase the Denon x3800h and then compare listening between the Onkyo RZ50, then I’ll return the one i decide not to keep.
I do not have any 4 ohm speakers. I did attach the specs on my new RSL speakers (which I have not tested yet). The first attachment, the CG23’s, will be my RCL. The CG3’s which will be my 2 surrounds. The second attachment is for my 2 Atmos, and the last page is for my subwoofer. If you have a chance, please look at these specs and see how well you think they’d perform with either AVR. I do know you said… “So if you are going to use the AVR as an AVR without external amps, the Denon should be better.”
I figured it may be helpful to share what setup I’ll be using
Thank you. Those are excellent points. I think I will try them both side by side and do an unbiased sound comparison. If I use room correction on the Onkyo, do a listen, and then unplug the AVR and then test the Denon, will the Onkyo have a stored memory of my setup when I plug it back in?I did a search and could only find limited measurements from S&V:
RSL Speakers CG3 5.1 Speaker System Review Test Bench | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)
The CG3’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +2.78/–2.93 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3dB point is at 96 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 73 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.69 ohms at 232 Hz and a phase angle of –38.94 degrees at 154 Hz.
If you can compare the Onko and Denon side by side, and can trust yourself not affected by "bias", then of course it would be easier to make your choice based on sound quality. If not, if you must choice between those two, then I would feel more comfortable with the Denon since you will be using the internal amps.
Ultimately, at this price point, sound quality is mostly determined by the recording/mastering quality of the media content itself, followed by speakers, room, room correction etc., and then the AVR/amps. For those small speakers, the subwoofer(s) will play the key role for sure and that really should be your focus.
One more question I forgot to ask. In your opinion, is there another AVR besides these 2 that is in the $1600 price range that you think is a better overall receiver? I’m not set in any particular brand, just trying to find one that closely resembles the 2 I’ve mentioned and will do a great job. I know it was mentioned about waiting for the new 2023 AVR’s, but I’m not able to wait on a newer model at this time as I’m taking advantage of some financing promotions and I only have a month to try out my speakers under the trial period for testing.I did a search and could only find limited measurements from S&V:
RSL Speakers CG3 5.1 Speaker System Review Test Bench | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)
The CG3’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +2.78/–2.93 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3dB point is at 96 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 73 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.69 ohms at 232 Hz and a phase angle of –38.94 degrees at 154 Hz.
If you can compare the Onko and Denon side by side, and can trust yourself not affected by "bias", then of course it would be easier to make your choice based on sound quality. If not, if you must choice between those two, then I would feel more comfortable with the Denon since you will be using the internal amps.
Ultimately, at this price point, sound quality is mostly determined by the recording/mastering quality of the media content itself, followed by speakers, room, room correction etc., and then the AVR/amps. For those small speakers, the subwoofer(s) will play the key role for sure and that really should be your focus.
If you are in the U.S., try Amazon.com. For $1,499, and its a 8K unit vs Onkyo RZ50's 4K, I doubt you can get a better deal but you should do a thorough search just in case.One more question I forgot to ask. In your opinion, is there another AVR besides these 2 that is in the $1600 price range that you think is a better overall receiver? I’m not set in any particular brand, just trying to find one that closely resembles the 2 I’ve mentioned and will do a great job. I know it was mentioned about waiting for the new 2023 AVR’s, but I’m not able to wait on a newer model at this time as I’m taking advantage of some financing promotions and I only have a month to try out my speakers under the trial period for testing.
The 4700H was actually the one I was looking at as well and found it for that same price in my city just yesterday. I am in the US. So in your opinion with all the things we’ve chatted about in this thread, do you feel the 4700H stands above the Onkyo RZ50 and the Denon X3800H?If you are in the U.S., try Amazon.com. For $1,499, and its a 8K unit vs Onkyo RZ50's 4K, I doubt you can get a better deal but you should do a thorough search just in case.
Amazon.com: Denon AVR-X4700H 8K Ultra HD 9.2 Channel (125 Watt X 9) AV Receiver 2020 Model - 3D Audio & Video with IMAX Enhanced, Built for Gaming, Music Streaming, Alexa + HEOS : Everything Else
Not sure how long such a deal will last.
Yes, larger power supply, display, auro 3D, preamp mode, 8K. No Dirac Live but even if you buy the $200 PC based app you are at $1,699. In my opinion, the $20 app is good enough, for the 20 to 300 Hz range, it can match performance of Dirac especially if you have 2 subs.This was act
The 4700H was actually the one I was looking at as well and found it for that same price in my city just yesterday. I am in the US. So in your opinion with all the things we’ve chatted about in this thread, do you feel the 4700H stands above the Onkyo RZ50 and the Denon X3800H?
I will plan to purchase this 4700H and compare it with the Onkyo RZ50 I currently have. After reading, I have a few questions. These are some of the the 4700H specs https://www.avforums.com/reviews/denon-avc-x4700h-av-receiver-review.19241/Yes, larger power supply, display, auro 3D, preamp mode, 8K. No Dirac Live but even if you buy the $200 PC based app you are at $1,699. In my opinion, the $20 app is good enough, for the 20 to 300 Hz range, it can match performance of Dirac especially if you have 2 subs.
Level and distance is set independently but they are EQed together.The Denon can connect 2 subwoofers, however I’m not finding if they are independent from each other?
There is no D&M anymore. Denon and Marantz are owned by Massimo and prior by Sound United.In this case, he specifically said the following in the conclusions:
I agree with him in general on this, but unfortunately, there will be some who missed the underlined (I did that) part and thought the X3800H's higher distortions would not be good audibly speaking. It would have been nice if he would do like what you had done in the past with D+M, and Yamaha, that is, while letting them know there are things they needed to improve on, also emphasized to the readers that sometimes the relatively higher distortions would still be below the threshold of audibility and still made appropriate recommendations in a more balanced way.
As @lovinthehd alluded to before, Amir did often mention something like, "...not audible..", or "...but thankfully levels are not high enough to be an audible concern...", but people tend to focus on the more dramatic comments such as "..not acceptable.." and missed the nuance.
Since you guys have a communication channel with the mass producers like D+M and Yamaha, they will listen to you more and it is never a bad thing for them to set their goals higher in terms of FR, THD, DR, XT and IMD and not simply aim to clear the bar of threshold of audibility, unless in doing so they had to raise their price point much higher. In this case, if they were to even just use the ES9006 that was widely used in Yamaha's non flag ship AVRs, SINAD would have no trouble clearing at least 90 dB and much fewer people, even Amir would have complained. So I do think D+M dropped the ball on this. They likely know it too, because they are using the ES9018Q2M (a real reference class Sabre DAC) in their flagship Denon AVR and the $7,000 Marantz A10. ES9018Q2M: 116 dB SINAD, 127 dB SNR (probably mono, so expect a few dB worse for stereo). Their bench performance will most likely be limited by the volume chip that cannot do better than 100 dB SINAD.
The biggest point I disagreed with him was the wording on "clipped at 1.4 V..." sort of remarks on his SINAD vs pre out voltage. To me that is false, he used the term "clip" simply because at that point SINAD (Denon/Marantz AVRs etc.) dropped rapidly but missed the fact that the rate of degradation actually would level off and still managed above 75 dB (0.018%) at 2 V and higher, indicating that wasn't due to clipping, but as you explained before (if I understood your point correctly) that the drop from that point was due to the internal power amps clipping, injecting much higher distortions. I further assume that the levelling off at higher voltage (about 1.7 V iirc) might have been because the internal power amp's influence were via some sort of feedback loop or capacitive coupling so the pre out itself won't be influenced in an unlimited sense.
Gene, great info. Thank you for sharing. I am just about finished watching your video with Kevin Turpin and Jake Mendel on the Denon X series. Now that the X4700H has been out for 2 years, do you still feel this is a solid receiver in your opinion? Any thoughts about it would be helpful. I’m trying to get a bit more feedback before I decide to purchaseThere is no D&M anymore. Denon and Marantz are owned by Massimo and prior by Sound United.
The performance issues I've been finding on latest Yamaha's aren't DAC related. Look at my measurements of the RX-A6A and I believe the issues I found were related to the VC circuits I believe. They will be redesigning this BC of my test findings in the next generation of products. People get too hung up on part names but in reality, implementation is often a far more critical bottleneck for performance issues, at least on the bench.
Personally I still feel Burr Browns are the best sounding DACs. Too bad they aren't the flavor of the month anymore but every product I ever measured with Burr Browns has been SOTA. My Marani DSP uses the top Burr Browns and the soundstage I get from my ACTIVE LCRs in my theater room is simply stunning.
I'd jump on a 4700h over 3800h if those are your two choices.Gene, great info. Thank you for sharing. I am just about finished watching your video with Kevin Turpin and Jake Mendel on the Denon X series. Now that the X4700H has been out for 2 years, do you still feel this is a solid receiver in your opinion? Any thoughts about it would be helpful. I’m trying to get a bit more feedback before I decide to purchase
Great. Thank you. The only other one I was looking at was the Onkyo RZ50. So far it sounds like the 4700h is taking the lead. I appreciate the replyI'd jump on a 4700h over 3800h if those are your two choices.
I agree implementation is important but manufacturers should not use it as an excuse for using the lesser parts.There is no D&M anymore. Denon and Marantz are owned by Massimo and prior by Sound United.
The performance issues I've been finding on latest Yamaha's aren't DAC related. Look at my measurements of the RX-A6A and I believe the issues I found were related to the VC circuits I believe. They will be redesigning this BC of my test findings in the next generation of products. People get too hung up on part names but in reality, implementation is often a far more critical bottleneck for performance issues, at least on the bench.
Personally I still feel Burr Browns are the best sounding DACs. Too bad they aren't the flavor of the month anymore but every product I ever measured with Burr Browns has been SOTA. My Marani DSP uses the top Burr Browns and the soundstage I get from my ACTIVE LCRs in my theater room is simply stunning.
For the 4700, if it was manufactured before the spring of 2021, it will have the AKM DAC chip, otherwise will have the same TI DAC chip as the 3800 and 4800.I will plan to purchase this 4700H and compare it with the Onkyo RZ50 I currently have. After reading, I have a few questions. These are some of the the 4700H specs https://www.avforums.com/reviews/denon-avc-x4700h-av-receiver-review.19241/
I see the Onkyo has (7) 8K inputs, the Denon only has 1. Onkyo has THX, Denon does not. There are a few other things I see differences on at this link but I don’t really understand them.
Denon AVR-X4700H vs Onkyo TX-RZ50: Comprehensive Comparison
Compare the Denon AVR-X4700H and Onkyo TX-RZ50. Discover the differences in features, specs, performance, and find out which A/V receiver is the best for you.www.zkelectronics.com
The Denon has six HDMI 2.0 and only one HDMI 2.1 input. There are also three HDMI outputs: one of which is HDMI 2.1 with eARC, and the other two being HDMI 2.0. Is this kind of limiting to what I can do?
I read that Denon's early units suffered from a bug in the HDMI 2.1 chipset. Denon offered a free, if rather clunky, hardware fix but all units manufactured since May 2021 have used a new glitch-free chipset. As a result, the only complaint now is that there's just one HDMI 2.1 input, which is annoying if you own a PS5 and Xbox Series X. How do I know I have the new units where this was supposedly fixed?
Do you know if the 4700 has the same issues with the dax chip as the 3800? And is this a completely separate issue from the chipset mentioned above? This is beyond my current knowledge
The Denon can connect 2 subwoofers, however I’m not finding if they are independent from each other?
Also, are you able to run one of those power vs, distortion reports on the 4700H? Any more feedback on the 4700 is very appreciated
I see now even the Sound United name seems to be no more, everything's now on the Masimo website....There is no D&M anymore. Denon and Marantz are owned by Massimo and prior by Sound United.
The performance issues I've been finding on latest Yamaha's aren't DAC related. Look at my measurements of the RX-A6A and I believe the issues I found were related to the VC circuits I believe. They will be redesigning this BC of my test findings in the next generation of products. People get too hung up on part names but in reality, implementation is often a far more critical bottleneck for performance issues, at least on the bench.
Personally I still feel Burr Browns are the best sounding DACs. Too bad they aren't the flavor of the month anymore but every product I ever measured with Burr Browns has been SOTA. My Marani DSP uses the top Burr Browns and the soundstage I get from my ACTIVE LCRs in my theater room is simply stunning.
This is that part from earlier. “I did attach the specs on my new RSL speakers (which I have not tested yet). The first attachment, the CG23’s, will be my RCL. The CG3’s which will be my 2 surrounds. The second attachment is for my 2 Atmos, and the last page is for my subwoofer. If you have a chance, please look at these specs and see how well you think they’d perform with either AVR.”I may have missed it somewhere in the thread, but I didn’t see any mention of the power or specs of the speakers that you plan to run, or the size of the room?