Next car?

[GrimSurfer]

Actually, you're correct about the test drive miss. I didn't intend for it to be a tight-curves car, and it drove so nicely on the roads I did test it on, that after about 45min or so I just said I'll buy one. I didn't realize how compromised it was until last summer, and then on a challenging road in our new location I was appalled. As I suspected by my look underneath with the car lifted, Audi experts I consulted said essentially nothing was adjustable. I made the decision not to do any parts swapping or mods, since the architecture of the car is so compromised. Another test drive miss was how useless the Nav system is.

The car isn't compromised, unless it has been in a serious collision. It's just performing according to the nature of its masses (which is certainly good enough to work with in your case),chassis, components, and settings.

The thing that's hardest to overcome before expecting good handling is chassis stiffness. Just as you cannot build a solid house on a bad foundation, you can't expect a suspension to perform in any consistent way unless the chassis has a good level of torsional stiffness. I've seen nothing to suggest Audi hasn't done a reasonable job in this regard... I mean there's to say it is as bad as the Fox chassis used in the last generation of Mustangs, which rendered those cars untunable without first doing something about the soda-straw structure.

Most cars suspensions lack the adjustability of, say, a Formula Ford racing car. But they are, indeed adjustable... camber, toe at the very least.

Otherwise, one wouldn't ever need alignments, would they? (And most manufacturers specify periodic *four wheel* alignments for their AWD models, with very good reason.)

There is considerable adjustability in today's suspensions. Not all of these are appropriate or advisable. There are also lots of OEM parts, specifically made for cars but not always fitted to cars in certain markets, that can change handling.

The trick is understanding how these parts and adjustments work as part of the system, and making appropriate choices to get the handling you want while avoiding characteristics that would make the car dangerous at the limit.

 

[Montucky]

While we discuss physics and driving dynamics, another million bland crossovers just sold. Makes me want to cry. You guys may not agree on some of these technical aspects, but we should all at least appreciate the fact that at least SOME people out there care enough about this stuff to argue about it, and that gives me a glimmer of hope that not all is lost. Debate away.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I mean there's to say it is as bad as the Fox chassis used in the last generation of Mustangs, which rendered those cars untunable without first doing something about the soda-straw structure.

Hmmm... I thought an expert like yourself would know that the Fox platform hasn't been used in Mustangs since 1994. ;-)

 

[GrimSurfer]

While we discuss physics and driving dynamics, another million bland crossovers just sold. Makes me want to cry. You guys may not agree on some of these technical aspects, but we should all at least appreciate the fact that at least SOME people out there care enough about this stuff to argue about it, and that gives me a glimmer of hope that not all is lost. Debate away.

I don't think there's much of a debate going on. Irv has repeatedly stated that I don't know what I'm talking about. But he's got a problem with his car's handling that he currently can't solve. A clue has been offered, a reading list provided.

Irv's continuation means one of two things: he's using this thread to amuse himself while waiting for Amazon to deliver some books about automotive suspension design and setup OR he thinks his posts will lead me to tell him exactly what he needs to do.

The first premise is unlikely. As for the second premise, it conflicts with Irv's contention that I don't know what I'm talking about. As for me volunteering anything to help a guy who has called me a liar, this is a good time to turn the mike over to Dana Carvey:

 

[GrimSurfer]

Hmmm... I thought an expert like yourself would know that the Fox platform hasn't been used in Mustangs since 1994. ;-)

Yup. Mustang II. I used it as an example because it is considered the worst platform ever to be used in a unibody chassis.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't think there's much of a debate going on. Irv has repeatedly stated that I don't know what I'm talking about. But he's got a problem with his car's handling that he currently can't solve. A clue has been offered, a reading list provided.

Irv's continuation means one of two things: he's using this thread to amuse himself while waiting for Amazon to deliver some books about automotive suspension design and setup OR he thinks his posts will lead me to tell him exactly what he needs to do.

Irv does indeed think you don't know what you're talking about. Irv doesn't care to solve the understeer problem with his S3 because he has consulted people who are experts in Audi modifications, there isn't a good fix due to the transverse engine architecture, and Irv thinks his money would be better spent on a better car, if neutral handling is the objective. Irv hasn't decided what to do yet, but the M2 Competition is calling his name, but unfortunately so are the Cayman GTS and the 2020 911 S. Irv has obviously not completed his decision process.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Irv does indeed think you don't know what you're talking about. Irv doesn't care to solve to solve the understeer problem with his S3 because he has consulted people who are experts in Audi modifications, there isn't a good fix due to the transverse engine architecture, and Irv thinks his money would be better spent on a better car, if neutral handling is the objective. Irv hasn't decided what to do yet, but the M2 Competition is calling his name, but unfortunately so are the Cayman GTS and the 2020 911 S. Irv has obviously not completed his decision process.

I think Irv is a guy who would have great difficulty hearing anybody but himself in a crowded room, much less seek the council of others.

What Irv isn't understanding is that practically all manufacturers calibrate their suspensions to deliver terminal understeer up to the point of departure.

So Irv can buy his M2 or Cayman under the misguided view that they will handle better because they don't have a transverse engine (I guess this rules out any hope that Ferrari, Lambo, etc will ever handle to Irv's high standards). He'll then try to hide the error of his ways by seeking oversteer with the throttle pedal. When that happens, Irv's car will be operating on the ragged edge of the envelope and he may get a good spanking by Sir Issac Newton, whose laws of motion are absolute and final.

Hopefully, Irv's exploration of his car's friction circle will not lead to injury (himself or others). It would be a high price to pay for pride and ignorance. But "such is life", as Ned Kelly said as he faced hanging.

One way or another, I wish Irv the best. May he get favourable loan terms and insurance rates. May the inventions of wizards at Bosch save him from meeting his maker.

Sigining off this thread, Irv. You're on your own, bud. Say hello to Sir Issac Newton for me when you meet him.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Say hello to Sir Issac Newton for me when you meet him.

I've already met Sir Issac, in the summer of 2001. I had a BMW Z3 M Coupe. We lived in a place with some high hills and curvy roads nearby, a sports car lover's dream, actually. My teenage son was in the car with me. We were driving on a road on a hillside, with a canyon to my left. My son kept egging me on to go faster, and heading into one tight turn I overcooked it and we spun. There was a guard rail, and I didn't hit it, but I scared the hell out of both of us, and Newton asked, "WTF are you doing, Irv?" After that incident and a lot of research, I significantly upgraded the suspension and the wheels and tires, and when I was done the handling was much better, but drivability suffered (mainly from the coil-overs and lowering). I wasn't really enjoying the Z3M after the mods, and after tweaking for a few years in an attempt to regain the fun, I finally sold it in 2005. It was the most idiosyncratic car I've ever owned, and not BMW's finest work either, IMO, as they used the old and controversial E30 M3 rear suspension for the Z3M, which was a significant compromise. But it was fun for a while.

 

[Mikado463]

Irv, interesting notes on your Z3'M' , FWIW I'm hearing good things on the new Z4 / Supra, thoughts ?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Irv, interesting notes on your Z3'M' , FWIW I'm hearing good things on the new Z4 / Supra, thoughts ?

I'd rather have a Boxster than the Z4. Front mid-engine cars have a huge nose, and it gets tiresome driving from the back seat, so to speak. Well, at least my wife would rather have a Boxster. She's the roadster lover in the family. We can't pass a Boxster on the road without her bugging me for a new one.

 

[Mikado463]

I'd rather have a Boxster than the Z4. Front mid-engine cars have a huge nose, and it gets tiresome driving from the back seat, so to speak. Well, at least my wife would rather have a Boxster. She's the roadster lover in the family. We can't pass a Boxster on the road without her bugging me for a new one.

LOL, long time Corvette owner here (42 years), I get your point. Either way, two very nice 'rag tops' !

 

[Irvrobinson]

LOL, long time Corvette owner here (42 years), I get your point. Either way, two very nice 'rag tops' !

We've had three Vettes. Muchas disculpas, but I like Porsches better. I think my wife would like a C7/Z06 convertible with a manual trans better...

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Super nice!...I have a bimmer...535i (wifey drives it)...in general, IDK why the Germans have given in to American steering, but once AMG gets their hands on a Benz...straight line power is never compromised!

I'm getting the itch again, but I want a coupe this time, and feeling some kind of way about the Audi S5 right now, but that could change.

You can't get a S3 when the RS3 is available in NA!!!!!!

This is my buddy's. Tons of mods and has a 2.9 second 0-60.

 

[2channel lover]

You can't get a S3 when the RS3 is available in NA!!!!!!

This is my buddy's. Tons of mods and has a 2.9 second 0-60.

Really nice! I have a friend with an RS3....not as nice as that one.

I don't think I want 4 doors on the next car, but really liking the clean look of that RS3.

I drove the RS5, S5 and A5 coupes not too long ago...The A5 is a toy car in comparison to the S5. The RS5 is faster, but ever so slightly...not the quantum leap of a BMW 3 series 6 cyl to an M3 for instance But the price of a CPO 2015 was almost $9k more than the S5 with similar miles features.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The RS3 is very cool, but no more transverse front engine cars for me.

 

[Montucky]

The RS3 is very cool, but no more transverse front engine cars for me.

Sounds like you've driven enough different cars to learn what you really prefer. I haven't followed this thread that closely though, so forgive me if you've already talked about it, but do you track your cars?

That's where I can see these handling characteristics being more pronounced. For daily road warrioring, I find a LOT of cars appealing, but if I were to track a car, I'd personally maybe want a more tail happy car. That's just me, though. I don't race, so I'm just blabbing on. I think I know how you feel about transverse front engine cars. Brother's a huge Audi nut and has multiple S variants. Although they DO handle beautifully, are agile and nimble, with lovely powerbands, I could see where you're coming from. My faster cars have all been front engine/rear wheel configurations like my CTS-V, which I personally prefer (for Southern driving that is). My Volvo is a champion on the snow where it lived most it's life, though. Transverse inline 6 if you can believe it. On dry roads, understeers like a mofo, but on a snow covered high altitude mountain road? That's where I could really rally it and kick out the tail on demand and whip it back straight as I pleased. That's where I believe Audis TRULY shine as well. Wet or snowy roads, they can absolutely rock and you feel like you're carving a windy mountain road like you're on rails. They're pretty damned impressive on those roads/conditions. Taking a highway cloverleaf at Mach 10, though? I'll take a Porsche, or a FR car any time. Fastest I've EVER experienced that was in a Porsche 911 Turbo with a salesman who I was working for (I used to work at a Porsche dealership). Absolutely blew my mind what that missile was capable of. Gives me goosebumps even thinking about that. What a car!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Sounds like you've driven enough different cars to learn what you really prefer. I haven't followed this thread that closely though, so forgive me if you've already talked about it, but do you track your cars?

That's where I can see these handling characteristics being more pronounced. For daily road warrioring, I find a LOT of cars appealing, but if I were to track a car, I'd personally maybe want a more tail happy car. That's just me, though. I don't race, so I'm just blabbing on. I think I know how you feel about transverse front engine cars. Brother's a huge Audi nut and has multiple S variants. Although they DO handle beautifully, are agile and nimble, with lovely powerbands, I could see where you're coming from. My faster cars have all been front engine/rear wheel configurations like my CTS-V, which I personally prefer (for Southern driving that is). My Volvo is a champion on the snow where it lived most it's life, though. Transverse inline 6 if you can believe it. On dry roads, understeers like a mofo, but on a snow covered high altitude mountain road? That's where I could really rally it and kick out the tail on demand and whip it back straight as I pleased. That's where I believe Audis TRULY shine as well. Wet or snowy roads, they can absolutely rock and you feel like you're carving a windy mountain road like you're on rails. They're pretty damned impressive on those roads/conditions. Taking a highway cloverleaf at Mach 10, though? I'll take a Porsche, or a FR car any time. Fastest I've EVER experienced that was in a Porsche 911 Turbo with a salesman who I was working for (I used to work at a Porsche dealership). Absolutely blew my mind what that missile was capable of. Gives me goosebumps even thinking about that. What a car!

Let's not lump all Audis into my concern category, just the A3-based variants, which unfortunately includes the otherwise interesting TTS. The others use longitudinally positioned engines and transmissions, and of course the R8 is a mid-engine car (which shares a platform with a Lamborghini). I should also mention that when the S3 is good, on highways and roads with broader, sweeping curves, it is very, very good. I like smaller cars over large ones, and there just wasn't a four-door sedan I found from anyone that was more engaging at the time I purchased the S3. The only competitor I liked better was the BMW M3, which was significantly larger and much more expensive. In retrospect, I should have chosen the M3, $20K price difference be damned, but I didn't have the time to wait for an ordered car to come in at that juncture (long story involving knee surgery),and anything I found available in a dealer's delivery pipeline was $30K-$35K more expensive (you know how dealers load up cars for inventory) and not what I wanted. Still, not getting an M3 is a regret.

The 911 Turbo is a remarkable car. The challenge is that they're $160K-$200K.

 

[Mikado463]

We've had three Vettes. I think my wife would like a C7/Z06 convertible with a manual trans better...

I like this woman already !

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

This is an old thread, but does anyone know if Toyota still builds reliable vehicles?

I've been looking at the RAV4 and Highlander SUVs.

 

[Mikado463]

This is an old thread, but does anyone know if Toyota still builds reliable vehicles?

yes sir........

I've been looking at the RAV4 and Highlander SUVs.

current Rav4 is much improved, as for the Highlander, check on the the rear cargo floor, last time I looked it was not a level floor and in fact slopped towards the rear ! Dumb as all get out !! IMO, I'd opt for a Honda Pilot