New media room, need subwoofer advice.

[Dave Raue]

New HT/media room is nearing completion. It's L22ft x W12.5 x H9.5 and will be used for both video and 2ch audio. The audio is a pretty serious setup using Magneplanar MGIIIa's (newly factory rebuilt) and massive Mark Levinson amp for both 2ch AND the front channels in 7.x.2 Atmos setup. The video front end is a Denon X38000H while the 2ch is mostly Schiit stuff. Both feed a Schiit Max which can switch between the respective sources for either video or 2ch. So far so good.

This brings me to the subwoofer situation. For years I've been using a old, reconed Velodyne in a video-only system and been pretty happy with it. Historically I haven't really been all that fussy about video audio and the UHD12 seemed fine for explosions etc.. However, in this setup the front speakers were also Maggies, but just MMG's. The MGIIIa and ML gear was used in a separate 2ch system. I never used a sub with the IIIa's and never actually felt I needed one for music. Now that these 2 systems are being combined and the video has been upgraded in various other ways, I'm wondering how happy I'll be with the UHD12 for video. Multiple subs seem to be a thing these days and maybe helpful for bass management. At the same time many folks say that it's hard tp properly integrate big magneplanars with a sub. Styill, for 7.x.2 it might be a good idea.

Anybody got thoughts on path forward? I might be willing to spend up to US$750 to replace or augment the UHD12. Comments and ideas welcome. Thanks and cheers,

 

[TLS Guy]

New HT/media room is nearing completion. It's L22ft x W12.5 x H9.5 and will be used for both video and 2ch audio. The audio is a pretty serious setup using Magneplanar MGIIIa's (newly factory rebuilt) and massive Mark Levinson amp for both 2ch AND the front channels in 7.x.2 Atmos setup. The video front end is a Denon X38000H while the 2ch is mostly Schiit stuff. Both feed a Schiit Max which can switch between the respective sources for either video or 2ch. So far so good.

This brings me to the subwoofer situation. For years I've been using a old, reconed Velodyne in a video-only system and been pretty happy with it. Historically I haven't really been all that fussy about video audio and the UHD12 seemed fine for explosions etc.. However, in this setup the front speakers were also Maggies, but just MMG's. The MGIIIa and ML gear was used in a separate 2ch system. I never used a sub with the IIIa's and never actually felt I needed one for music. Now that these 2 systems are being combined and the video has been upgraded in various other ways, I'm wondering how happy I'll be with the UHD12 for video. Multiple subs seem to be a thing these days and maybe helpful for bass management. At the same time many folks say that it's hard tp properly integrate big magneplanars with a sub. Styill, for 7.x.2 it might be a good idea.

Anybody got thoughts on path forward? I might be willing to spend up to US$750 to replace or augment the UHD12. Comments and ideas welcome. Thanks and cheers,

That system is poorly thought out and a mess.

 

[Dave Raue]

That system is poorly thought out and a mess.

Dear god. The 2ch part sounds exceptional. I greatly doubt you've ever even heard properly set up large Maggies. The rest, however, just is what it is. What a pitifully snarky and unhelpful response.

 

[lovinthehd]

For your budget I'd think about an SVS PB1000 or Hsu VTF-2 mk5. Why would your speakers be particularly hard to integrate with a sub? The 3800 will do quite well with up to four subs....

 

[Eppie]

For those interested, the MGIIIa was reviewed in Stereophile with measurements here.

The review lists a response down to 40Hz with in room extension down to 25Hz. They noted some prominence at 60-80Hz though.

You could run the Maggies full range and likely get most of the movie effects except for the really deep stuff. I would be worried about dynamics though with an older set of planar speakers and would opt to run subwoofers just to ease the stress on the speakers. The Maggies are great for a music setup but some movies have pronounced bass effects. If you get the spike at 60-80Hz, running subs could also smooth out the overall in-room response. The room is big enough that adding a second sub could help if you are willing to take the time to experiment with proper placement to help eliminate room modes. The two sub recommendations are good and the RSL Speedwoofer 12S is also in that price range.

 

[shadyJ]

For those interested, the MGIIIa was reviewed in Stereophile with measurements here.

The review lists a response down to 40Hz with in room extension down to 25Hz. They noted some prominence at 60-80Hz though.

You could run the Maggies full range and likely get most of the movie effects except for the really deep stuff. I would be worried about dynamics though with an older set of planar speakers and would opt to run subwoofers just to ease the stress on the speakers. The Maggies are great for a music setup but some movies have pronounced bass effects. If you get the spike at 60-80Hz, running subs could also smooth out the overall in-room response. The room is big enough that adding a second sub could help if you are willing to take the time to experiment with proper placement to help eliminate room modes. The two sub recommendations are good and the RSL Speedwoofer 12S is also in that price range.

Unfortunately those measurements tell us little about the speaker's performance. In fact, it would be difficult to fairly measure something like that which would tell us what it sounds like versus more traditional designs. I would like to give it a shot some day, but I am not sure how I would do it at this time.

 

[TLS Guy]

That system is poorly thought out and a mess.

The point is that your system has over complicated architecture. You don't need separate 2 and multichannel systems. You would get better SQ just using your AVR and external amps. The front end of AVRs is just as good as anything.

Your best bet is what I have done, and use and AVP with external amps. You can simply switch between 2 and multichannel audio with simple architecture. AVPs measure just was well as anything else. I know because I have the ability to make measurements on my test bench.

There are only downsides to separating systems like you have and NO upsides.

It should not be hard to integrate Maggies with subs of your choice. I would start with 2 good ones and see how you get on. Maggies don't have deep bass and so subs will be bonus.

 

[Dave Raue]

For your budget I'd think about an SVS PB1000 or Hsu VTF-2 mk5. Why would your speakers be particularly hard to integrate with a sub? The 3800 will do quite well with up to four subs....

Honestly I don't know and I've never really tried. However, if you poke around on the various high end 2ch audio boards you'll discover that many have tried and found it challenging to get a smooth transition. And the quality of the bass is allegedly quite different, potentially leading to smearing or whatever. Magneplanars are a special beast.

 

[Dave Raue]

For those interested, the MGIIIa was reviewed in Stereophile with measurements here.

The review lists a response down to 40Hz with in room extension down to 25Hz. They noted some prominence at 60-80Hz though.

You could run the Maggies full range and likely get most of the movie effects except for the really deep stuff.
1. I would be worried about dynamics though with an older set of planar speakers and would opt to run subwoofers just to ease the stress on the speakers.
2. The Maggies are great for a music setup but some movies have pronounced bass effects.
If you get the spike at 60-80Hz, running subs could also smooth out the overall in-room response. The room is big enough that adding a second sub could help if you are willing to take the time to experiment with proper placement to help eliminate room modes. The two sub recommendations are good and the RSL Speedwoofer 12S is also in that price range.

1. Yes, my concern exactly. They're absolutely not blow-down-the-doors speakers. In this case the "old" doesn't matter though. The rebuild makes them new again, better in fact. Magneplanar says that the IIIa's actually have better bass than the current 3.7 series.
2. For sure! They are very engaging and enveloping. I anticipate a lot of experimentation.

 

[lovinthehd]

Honestly I don't know and I've never really tried. However, if you poke around on the various high end 2ch audio boards you'll discover that many have tried and found it challenging to get a smooth transition. And the quality of the bass is allegedly quite different, potentially leading to smearing or whatever. Magneplanars are a special beast.

There is so much silly stuff on 2ch audio boards I generally don't bother. Many 2ch systems aren't conducive to integrating subs either, most don't have bass management. Magnaplanars sound fussy.

 

[Dave Raue]

The point is that your system has over complicated architecture. You don't need separate 2 and multichannel systems. You would get better SQ just using your AVR and external amps. The front end of AVRs is just as good as anything.

Your best bet is what I have done, and use and AVP with external amps. You can simply switch between 2 and multichannel audio with simple architecture. AVPs measure just was well as anything else. I know because I have the ability to make measurements on my test bench.

There are only downsides to separating systems like you have and NO upsides.

It should not be hard to integrate Maggies with subs of your choice. I would start with 2 good ones and see how you get on. Maggies don't have deep bass and so subs will be bonus.

So much wrong with this it's hard to know where to start so I'll simplify. What I propose IS using AVP with an external amp, at least for the front. And the IIIa's do have deep base, deep enough to need careful crossing over etc. Finally, I've compared the 3800 with the Schiit stack as well as it's predecessor system (Krell, custom Sonic Frontiers stuff, etc). The 3800 isn't even in the same category. Why you think that AVR would deliver better 2ch performance is a mystery for us all to ponder. Maybe time to get your hearing checked.

 

[Dave Raue]

There is so much silly stuff on 2ch audio boards I generally don't bother. Many 2ch systems aren't conducive to integrating subs either, most don't have bass management. Magnaplanars sound fussy.

Agree on the 2 ch boards, though I'm not sure the AV boards are much better - just different realms of silly.

As for Maggies, Yes, they are.

 

[lovinthehd]

Agree on the 2 ch boards, though I'm not sure the AV boards are much better - just different realms of silly.

As for Maggies, Yes, they are.

Placement options when I thought about Magnaplanars was a concern, but never really returned to thinking about them much. But putting special characteristics on them from 2ch boards, meh. AV boards are far more realistic than 2ch boards IME and less prone to bulls*it.

 

[Dave Raue]

Placement options when I thought about Magnaplanars was a concern, but never really returned to thinking about them much. But putting special characteristics on them from 2ch boards, meh. AV boards are far more realistic than 2ch boards IME and less prone to bulls*it.

I've been running Maggies for 30+ years. There's lots of info out there on them and I can confirm most of it from my own experience. Imaging, soundstage and general realism are pretty much in a class of their own. But the sweet spot is small and placement is finicky. They're extremely revealing. They need the right electronics or they'll suck. But give them the love they need and you'll get it back many times over.

 

[TLS Guy]

So much wrong with this it's hard to know where to start so I'll simplify. What I propose IS using AVP with an external amp, at least for the front. And the IIIa's do have deep base, deep enough to need careful crossing over etc. Finally, I've compared the 3800 with the Schiit stack as well as it's predecessor system (Krell, custom Sonic Frontiers stuff, etc). The 3800 isn't even in the same category. Why you think that AVR would deliver better 2ch performance is a mystery for us all to ponder. Maybe time to get your hearing checked.

If you are going to use an AVP for the front, then you are best using all external amps for all speakers. That is your best bet. That is exactly what I do. You listed and AVR and not an AVP.
If you are going state of the art like I do, then you need a good AVP and external amps and not an AVR.

I can understand problems with integrating the Maggies with a sub. They are membrane speakers with a figure of 8 distribution and a null at the sides, with the rear radiation out of phase with the front. In addition they are non resonant and very low Q speakers. So they are truly non resonant.

This problem is shared with the Quad ESLs which are the ultimate flat diaphragm speakers.
Peter Walker solved this by working with the Finish firm Gradient to produce an open baffle figure of 8 sub. Whilst this is not essential, if you are going to use a sub it needs to be ultra low Q. Pretty much all commercial subs are high Q. In fact most wantonly high Q. So much so that I personally could not live with most commercial speakers and especially the subs.

I build my own speakers and specialize in low Q transmission line speakers. My designs though are totally integrated and designed as functioning seamless systems from top to bottom. They are way out of the commercial norms, but all for good and viable reasons.

Auto Eq systems are not going to solve this problem for you.

The reason is that you can not design a really low Q reflex ported sub, or it would not work.

If you made a really low Q sealed unit and you can, it will have a higher than desired F3 unless you have a really costly driver and the Eq required will need a monster amp. These subs exist but are really costly.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've been running Maggies for 30+ years. There's lots of info out there on them and I can confirm most of it from my own experience. Imaging, soundstage and general realism are pretty much in a class of their own. But the sweet spot is small and placement is finicky. They're extremely revealing. They need the right electronics or they'll suck. But give them the love they need and you'll get it back many times over.

So they're fussy like I said. Just not my cup o'tea.

 

[Dave Raue]

If you are going to use an AVP for the front, then you are best using all external amps for all speakers. That is your best bet. That is exactly what I do. You listed and AVR and not an AVP.
If you are going state of the art like I do, then you need a good AVP and external amps and not an AVR.

I can understand problems with integrating the Maggies with a sub. They are membrane speakers with a figure of 8 distribution and a null at the sides, with the rear radiation out of phase with the front. In addition they are non resonant and very low Q speakers. So they are truly non resonant.

This problem is shared with the Quad ESLs which are the ultimate flat diaphragm speakers.
Peter Walker solved this by working with the Finish firm Gradient to produce an open baffle figure of 8 sub. Whilst this is not essential, if you are going to use a sub it needs to be ultra low Q. Pretty much all commercial subs are high Q. In fact most wantonly high Q. So much so that I personally could not live with most commercial speakers and especially the subs.

I build my own speakers and specialize in low Q transmission line speakers. My designs though are totally integrated and designed as functioning seamless systems from top to bottom. They are way out of the commercial norms, but all for good and viable reasons.

Auto Eq systems are not going to solve this problem for you.

The reason is that you can not design a really low Q reflex ported sub, or it would not work.

If you made a really low Q sealed unit and you can, it will have a higher than desired F3 unless you have a really costly driver and the Eq required will need a monster amp. These subs exist but are really costly.

First, per my OP, I have NOT been concerned with anything remotely state-of-the-art for video sound. Moreover, I described my stuff and asked about subwoofers, not replacing everything. If you already know so much about planar speakers and the low Q subwoofer issue then you could have said so at the outset. So, all this stuff really amounts to pontification &/or bragging, not a meaningful response to the topic at hand. But you're right about one thing, I did mix up AVP and AVR. And I do have an AVR. My bad. Regardless, consider yourself blocked.

 

[Eppie]

Unfortunately those measurements tell us little about the speaker's performance. In fact, it would be difficult to fairly measure something like that which would tell us what it sounds like versus more traditional designs. I would like to give it a shot some day, but I am not sure how I would do it at this time.

They certainly present a challenge. Would free air measurements be meaningful with a speaker that has a figure 8 radiation pattern, or would you need a Klippel in this instance?

 

[Eppie]

I have a friend with the original 3.7 Maggies and it remains one of the most realistic sounding systems that I have heard. The op is right, though, in that it had a rather small sweet spot and my friend spent a lot of time painstakingly tweaking the system until he got it just right. More effort than most would be willing to exert.

As to the original question, for movie viewing you ideally want a system that goes down to 20Hz or better. There are few full range speakers that will perform as well as a subwoofer for low frequency effects. If the Velodyne has been reconed it must be old by now. I could not find a manual for the UHD12 but the ULD12 has a fixed crossover of 85Hz. If your sub does not have variable crossover and phase controls I would think that it's time to upgrade. The SVS Pro models have a mobile app and bluetooth so that you can adjust them from the seating position. True integration would be best with a measurement mic and REW software though.

 

[shadyJ]

They certainly present a challenge. Would free air measurements be meaningful with a speaker that has a figure 8 radiation pattern, or would you need a Klippel in this instance?

It isn't the dipole design, its the lobing that occurs on the vertical plane. All of that projected energy is interacting with itself, and it will produce a very complex comb-filtering pattern. The thing is, comb-filtering can be difficult to hear, so while the response might look like a mess, it may not sound like one. Indeed, I have heard maggies and other planars and electrostats that have this quality yet they always sounded fine.

Neither free-air or Klippel measuring systems would be able to disentable this problem. It's possible a far-field, multi-mic measurement might help though.