Monitor Audio

[dpjones]

I'm getting ready to purchase both the electronics and speakers for my home theater. I'm running into the usual problem of not being able to compare apples to apples. I can rarely here a given set of speakers with more than 1 set of electronics I like, or vice versa. Given that, the speakers I've been the most impressed with are the Monitor Audio Gold Reference series. Their FB212 sub impressed my as well, but I've been reading some reviews that sound they are hard to set up/place in a room. If you get it right, they are supposed to sound great. Due to this, I'm considering the Velodyne Digital Drive 12" or 15" since it has the ability to be adjusted for the acoustics of a room. Does anyone have any opinions/advice on this matter (both the choice of Monitor Audio loud speakers and the sub selection).

Thanks in advance!

 

[Dan]

I listened to monitor audio silver series extensively when I was shopping and the gold when I upgraded my price range. I think all the monitors are a tad bright (some others think more than a tad) but they were very engaging. I thought the bass was a little thin but improved substantially when pushed by a big Parasound amp.

In the gold price range you have some choices. I would also consider Totem (Forest I believe) and the bottom end of the Ariel Acoustic line. Naturally I sugest that you listen to Vandersteens if you can find em.

As for subs, Vandersteen makes an superb one for less than the Monitor audio which is easy to integrate with other speakers if you have separates or preamp out amp in jacks on your receiver. It is hard to connect if you don't though.

If you go monitor audio consider a slighly warm sounding amp such as Sherbourn or B&K. I also liked the Parasound I heard pushing the Silvers.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Could be the associated equipment or room, Dan. I've got Monitor Audio speakers (actually, between me & my roomies, we have 15 MA speakers! ) and I can say they're in no way bright in any of our systems.

There's plenty of speakers I haven't had the chance to listen to, but of the many I have, MA are my favorites. I personally will never upgrade again without first listening to whatever Monitor speakers are in my price range.

Tastes of course are personal, and YMMV.

 

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, in my experience that sub's no tougher to set up properly than any other. At the price range there's a lot of good subs; I personally have HSU subs, which I think are pretty tough to touch for the price. The MA subs are pretty flexible. You wouldn't go wrong with them, although there really is no advantage to sticking with the same brand of sub just to try to match the mains.

 

[dpjones]

Thanks Dan and Rob. I am considering the B&K Ref 50 and the 200.7 amp. This combination is what I heard the Monitors with. I first heard the Silver 10s and was impressed. Then they hooked up the Gold 60s and they blew me away. The Monitors were the first speaker that no matter what song or movie I played, I loved them. I have been seriously considering the Sunfire TG IV and 400X7 amp, but after reading the review of the TG III on this sight, I don't know.

As far as the sub goes, I've been hearing more and more about Velodyne being among the best. They are supposed to go low and also be able to play tight. That along with the fact that the Digital Drive series have the built in equalization, does make them sound attractive. You plug in a provided microphone, put it in your listening location, and then you adjust the sub. I'm going to find a dealer here locally to give them a try. The 15" version is about $900 more than the Monitor FB212.

 

[Rob Babcock]

I think you just answered your own question, DPJ! If you loved the sound, by all means, keep them on your short list.

Are they the best in the world? Probably not. Are they competitive with the bulk of the competition in their price range? Almost certainly. Will you eventually find something better? Probably- that's the way this hobby is. But it's damned unlikely that you'll get to hear everthing in your price range. At some point you gotta just "pull the trigger", so to speak.

If I was buying something in that price range (around $4K, or slightly less?), I imagine the Gold Ref 60's would be in the running, although I've heard great things about the new VMPS RM-30's (but havent' heard them- auditioning them could be a problem, depending on where you live. Pretty good return policy, though). Von Schweikart's VR4jr's would probably be a pretty good choice, too.

Matter what you buy someone's gonna tell you that their "XYZ Superblasters" or whatever are head and shoulders better! Buy something you like the sound of.

BTW, those gold domes MA uses really get sweeter as they break in.

 

[Dan]

I think MA is great too. I almost bought the Silvers. I also think B&K is an excellent choice for powering them. The MAs are very beautiful to look at which is more than I can say for Vandersteen.

I (and others) think that the composite ceramic aluminum magnesium (CCAM) drivers are really good. They are very light and rigid therefore they do not distort easily and sound tight since they are easy to start and stop the driver excursion. For these reasons I suggest a musical sub not one just meant for explosions. I have heard good things about HSU and they seem well thought out although I have never heard them. The Vandy 2Wq has three 8" drivers and a 300W amp with an adjustable Q AND a separate high pass first order crossover that goes between the preamp and amp. The main speakers get the high pass and the main amp does not have to make the lowest frequencies. The sub amp is designed to receive the high pass signal along with any main amp coloration and equalizes the output to blend seamlessly with the main speakers. The three drivers have the area of a 14" driver but are obviously each much lighter and thus can stop and start quickly like the MAs. At $1300 it is cheaper than the MA sub by alot.

I did think the MAs were a little bright and many I have read agree. I think when you own something you get used to the sound so much that it sounds natural after a while and other stuff sounds very different. The B&K is on the warm side by many accounts a a very good match for MAs. I think you've got a great system started there. Happy listening.

 

[dpjones]

Thanks Dan and Rob. It looks like there is a dealer close to me that sells the Vandersteens. I'll go check them out. I wish there was 1 dealer that sold the MA, Velodyne, and the Vandys. I know I will be happy with any of them if I get them placed and set up correctly. The MA and Vandy both have the adjustable Q, but the built in RTA in the Velodyne is probably the easiest to set up.

 

[Rob Babcock]

I've so far never read that in a pro review (except an old Bronze reveiw where the manufacturer stated they normally burn in speakers as a courtesy before sending them to reveiwers, but hadn't been able to due to time constraints), but obviously tastes vary. Often people like a speaker with rolled off treble, which is not MA. Once you get used to rolled off treble, that sound just becomes natural to you, and often you must acclimate yourself to a different sound.

I've heard the 'too bright' knock on Yamma and B&W, too, and I've found neither cliche to be entirely accurate. Oftimes peoples opinions are formed by very brief listening sessions in a retail environment. In this instance the setup isn't ideal and the speakers often aren't properly run in. I'd suggest a minimum of a couple hundred hours is needed to break in the MA tweeter. It's best to refrain from making any judgements til they're broken in. Incidentally, this is good advice for any speaker.

 

[Sounds Simple]

Rob-

I thought I was all settled on a Paradigm setup with Studio 20s for mains. Then I listened to the MA Silver 2s. Even in a showroom with much less than optimal placement, these things just sang and sang. No matter the type of music, they sounded good and always engaed me. I repeatedly heard things that had, at best, only been insinuated by other speakers.


My one concern is that in a very brief listen of 5.1 for movies, the Silver Center LCR did not seem to keep up with the mains. Have you or your roomates had any experience with this center. The saleman said he normally recommends the Gold Center even with Silver fronts and rears. Any thoughts or suggestions.

Bob

 

[Rob Babcock]

The previous Silver center channel (the 12i) was ported, while I think the new Silver Center is sealed. I'd guess its SPL ability might not be quite as high. I think the ideal thing would be to have 3 Silver 2s, but I realize that probably isn't very likely unless you could somehow split a pair with someone else who needed on for center use.

It's hard to tell whether the salesmans advice of buying Golds stems from higher quality or just higher profit. Personally I'd think it's not a good idea to pluck a center from another product line as it probably won't be a seemless blend. I've tried adding a Bronze center with Silver mains and it just didn't work. I'd guess there'd be a similar difference between the Gold & Silver.

Sorry, I can't offer any specifics as I have the Silver i, not the new Silver S. I've found my 12i to be a good match for my 7i's. I wonder how differently the new models are voiced compared to the old ones? You might have good luck with a 12i- it's ported with 2 X 6.5" woofers, which should work pretty well with the 2's.

 

[Sounds Simple]

Thanks, Rob.

The dealer has another Silver LCR in another room so I think that I will listen to dialog on both centers playing by themselves - maybe there is just something wrong with the one.

I have yet to do a proper audition with the speakers on stands but the dealer will set that up at my convenience. When I do that, I will also make sure that all the speakers are dialed in better.

Bob

 

[Rob Babcock]

Sounds like a plan. I'd think if you try out a different one & make sure it's broken in you'd be able to discover pretty quickly if you like it.

What finish are you looking at? My sister owns a pair of 5i's in Rose Mahoggany, and they're simply beautiful speakers.

 

[Sounds Simple]

Rob-

I'm really quite taken by the Rosamah although Warm Beech is also nice. When there is real-wood veneer on a speaker I kinda want to see wood.

Unfortunately, I just had a nightmarish demo of the Silver 6s today. Not the speakers but the experience was terrible.

Bob

 

[Rob Babcock]

I haven't heard the 6S's, but the 5i's were sure damned nice. Sorry the demo was so bad. Hopefully you'll have a chance to hear 'em under better conditions.

That Rosemah finish is about as purty as anything I've seen at anyway near the price point. I love that it's dark enough to disappear visually while you're watching a movie but has enough highlites to really dazzle when the lights are on. The Beech is okay, a little bland but a lot better in person that in pictures. Ditto of the old Cherry finish (and the latter darkens nicely over time).

 

[Sounds Simple]

I believe I resolved the issue with the center: it just needed a boost (as some have suggested) and it sounded fine in my limited testing.

The testing was limited by a true salesjerk who rattled off a litany of reasons why B&Ms are basically useless: speakers sound different in every room (duh!!!), the fact that they run through a switcher means there is no damping, less than optimal setup, etc. I told him that since the two speakers I was evaluating were in the same room running off the same receiver that it was at least a start to which he responded "you're just spinning your wheels" and then tried to impress me with his C.V. (worked 6 years at Infinity - don't know if he was an engineer or a janitor, though).

He then tried to impress me by telling me (as he sat on a sub with arms folded) that I was listening to a mismatched pair - one S8 with an S6 - which was not true.

Finally, he took exception with the fact that as I was switching from the S6s to S2s I was setting the the fronts to small and adding in a little sub: "We prefer you not do that. The receivers are all set to match the room and speakers." Yeah right, most people run their bookshelfs as large.

The funny thing is that the S6s were not hooked up when I got there so I asked another salesperson if it was okay to hook them up and move them out a bit (we were the only customers in the store or else I would not have done this). He said it was okay and brought the remote for the player. I've usually dealt with the sales manager who has also had no ptoblem with any of this but he was out today.

This was not some kid but just a very rude saleman who explained to me quite clearly why retailers (Showcase Entertainment/Tweeter, in this case) really offer no value to consumers other than the "warranty blackmail".

On a brighter note, I left and listened to some speakers by a local outfit here and was quite favorably impressed. The speakers are all handmade and have very nice cabinets. I think I will be using a pair of these in a second zone if not in the theater itself. If you are in Phoenix, check these guys out Celestial Audio & Video. I dealt with one of the owners who is a true audiophile and gentleman with a very good product at a reasonable price.

That was my day, how was yours?

Bob

 

[Rob Babcock]

What kind of bonehead salesman tells a customer that B&M stores, and by extention, the salesman himself , are worthless? Yeah, I bet his boss would love to hear that sales pitch! The guy should wear a shirt with "MORON" emblazoned on the back.

If you like that store even a little, you should bring that to the attention of the manager. Obviously an employee like that can do a lot of damage to a business, and the owner or manager may not even know he's doing it. Very bizarre...

Sure, B&Ms have their drawbacks, and I don't approve of the "warrenty blackmail", either. But since that's the reality we have to deal with it. And a good dealer can bring a lot of value if he or she really knows their stuff.

You live in Phoenix? I take it you must have an Ultimate Electronics in town. They don't really carry any speakers I'd much care to have, but I've bought most of my Denon gear there. My local Ultimate is a really good store, and they really back what they sell (at least for guys like me that drop a lotta cash there! ).

I buy both B&M and online. Got a great deal on my FX/i surrounds at a local specialty store (unfortunately now defunct) but I had to get my mains & center online as the dealer didn't carry the upper models of the line.

Let us know which ones you end up with!

 

[Sounds Simple]

Showcase Entertainment is part of the Tweeter chain. To be honest, I've had almost all good experiences with them - not as good as the local audio specialists but better than even Ultimate Electronics (the guys there always seem to say "what did you think?" so they can reinforce your opinion and get that impulse buy).

I'm planning to talk to the sales manager who is the person I've been dealing with till today. He's knowledgeable and truly helpful, and encourages people to come in an do their homework (I guess that's "storework").

I understand the need for them to keep their demo rooms in order and all but if anyone thinks I'm gonna consider dropping $2000 or more on speakers plus another $2k-plus on electronics and accessories without getting a feel for it I say they're a little dissociated with the real world.

What really annoyed me was his know-it-all attitude combined with the lack of helpfulness - if he didn't want me making the adjustments, he could have offered to do it, but rather he sat there on the sub with his arms folded across his chest.

I guess I could go with his advice and take home a pair of speakers and then return them to try another and another and another..... When asked what the hell is going on, I can tell tham that "Sam says the only way to audition speakers is in your own setting." I'm sure that would make the manager happy as he tries to move all the open-box units.

Bob

 

[Sounds Simple]

Let us know which ones you end up with!

Rob-

From the limited listening I did, I think I might go with the S6 up front. I'm not really interested in the bass, but they seem to have even more air in the highs and more openess in the lower midrange.

My one concern is that they MAs seem to image better with the tweeters a bit higher than ear level. I was planning to put the S2s on taller stands but I'll need to think of how to best elevate the S6s in my room.

Any thoughts or suggestions will be appreciated.

Bob

 

[Rob Babcock]

You could always get short stands/risers. Lovan makes some, and Sound Anchors makes really nice ones (and they'll custom build them to your speakers).

Or you could just slouch down in your chair!