Massacre at Virginia Tech

[stratman]

True, but why would any law abiding person want to carry a gun if there's no need to carry a gun? And if there is a need to carry a gun, what does that say about the place in which you live?

Nothing like gun related threads highlights the differences between myself as a European, and many on the forum as Americans. You derive a sense of security from the freedom to bear arms to protect yourself whereas I am horrified at the thought that the person standing next to me has the means to so easily end my existance.

How depressing that our ways of thinking are poles apart.

Robbie maybe this will help you understand us a little better, we as a nation were raised with guns, our culture revolved around guns of all kinds: rifles, shotguns and handguns, at the turn of this century it was common for folks that lived outside the major cities to hunt for their food, as markets started to prevail in the rural areas firearms stayed with us as security, sport and still in some cases a way to get food. Also remember how our history began, we as Americans are weary of government and when such government(s) try to oppress the citizenry the revolt will begin, the firearm is the great equalizer, the elitist fears it for it is the power of the people, the murderer fears it because it'll bring swift justice and the responsible owner is glad for it because it can avert disaster. On a personal note, I'm a gun collector, I never feel the need to carry one, but I'm glad I have the option, I thoroughly enjoy a skeet or trap match just as much as turning on my HT and watching a good movie. Guns were made a pariah by the leftists in this country, for all the guns we have in this country per capita the number of accidents are tiny compared to sports or drugs or drunk driving for that matter.

How many times have you stood waiting for the "tube" and you never knew what that person was carrying under their jacket?

 

[markw]

Well, for those who would have preferred a more pro-active stance in this matter...

...you'll just love this. AP via Comcast.

"A University of Colorado student was arrested after making comments that classmates deemed sympathetic toward the gunman blamed for killing 32 students and himself at Virginia Tech, authorities said."

http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2007/04/18/640150.html&cvqh=itn_vatechremarks

But, it gets better:

"His father, Michael Karson, told the Camera newspaper that the comments may have been misinterpreted and questioned whether his son's free speech rights had been violated."

And now we rejoin your regular daily soap opera, "As the Pendelum Swings".

 

[Matt34]

What Mark said plus I like to add...

There are only 2 ways to circumvent this kind of tragedy:

1. We can create a Police state with armed police or military personnel and security check points in every public place. Confiscate all firearms, large knives, explosives (and there potential ingredients).

2. We can remove the laws preventing law abiding citizens from carrying weapons in public places and encourage people to be vigilant and responsible for there own safety and freedom.

History has proven that the first option will not work. In fact, it will force those who love freedom to become criminals themselves.

Why are people so afraid to let there fellow citizens defend themselves and others?

The policy is already in place for zero weapons on campus, but that didn't stop this guy so what good is a policy that the bad guys won't follow? More policies and regulations only hurt the law abiding citizen.

It all comes down to the truth of the old bumper sticker "WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS"..... so true.

 

[Rickster71]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickster71
If a person intends to harm another, they will find something to use. A knife, a baseball bat, a brick, etc.

Originally Posted by Buckle-meister
If the person had used a knife, baseball bat or brick it is a virtual certainty that he would have been overcome and fewer - not necessarily none - but fewer people killed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickster71
This tragedy took place because Mental Illness, is the most destructive force of all

Originally Posted by Buckle-meister
Why make it easy for them?


I think you really missed the point of my original post.
By the simple fact that you 'cherry picked' one small part of my overall statement, shows that you don't want to get it.
You seem to veiw this as something to make 'polictical hay'
On the other hand I see it as a problem of 'Intent" and mental illness

 

[Buckle-meister]

...the person standing next to you may share your culture, but be just as likely to pose a threat to your well-being as the person is that's standing next to me...

I agree. When Markw wrote that:

"Scotland is reported to have the second highest murder rate in Western Europe...

I didn't doubt it. In fact, I'll bet the overwhelming majority of the murders are comitted right here in Glasgow.

But whilst I cannot deny that the person standing next to me may shoot me dead with an illegally aquired gun, nevertheless I feel safer on the whole knowing that the overwhelming majority of people standing next to me are weaponlesss.

Call me someone of little faith in humanity, but I contend that if you have a gun on your person, you're more likely to use it. If you've a gun on your person, it's too easy to do from a distance what without it you may not have contemplated doing at all.

...we as a nation were raised with guns...

I understand. But the right to bear arms was enshrined during a time when there was the real prospect of being attacked from without rather than from within, was it not? This isn't a realistic proability anymore. Even if it was, guns owned by the populace wouldn't have any effect of the type of weapon that'd be being used against you.

...for all the guns we have in this country per capita the number of accidents are tiny compared to sports or drugs or drunk driving for that matter.

Accidents, or deaths?

How many times have you stood waiting for the "tube" and you never knew what that person was carrying under their jacket?

Refer to 5th paragraph.

I think you really missed the point of my original post. By the simple fact that you 'cherry picked' one small part of my overall statement, shows that you don't want to get it.

You seem to veiw this as something to make 'polictical hay' On the other hand I see it as a problem of 'Intent" and mental illness

Oh I get it alright. I only "cherry-picked" because those were the points I wished to contend. Your other points I agreed with. No political 'hay-making' going on I assure you.

Why are people so afraid to let there fellow citizens defend themselves and others?

There're too many nutters in the world, and I'm not talking about mentally ill people. I cannot imagine some 18 year olds being considered responsible enough to be allowed to carry a gun. I also cannot imagine that even though different cultures think differently, that 18 year old Americans are much if any different from 18 year olds anywhere else.

 

[Matt34]

There're too many nutters in the world, and I'm not talking about mentally ill people. I cannot imagine some 18 year olds being considered responsible enough to be allowed to carry a gun. I also cannot imagine that even though different cultures think differently, that 18 year old Americans are much if any different from 18 year olds anywhere else.

At least here in Arizona you have to be 21 to own and carry a handgun. Yet an 18yr old can serve in most of today's armed services?

I'll also have to disagree just because someone carries a weapon does not mean they are more likely to use it. Hundreds of thousands of people carry a handgun every day and I bet dollars to donuts that the percentage of those law-abiding, permit carrying gun owners having committed a violent act is dramatically lower than the national average.

Robbie, you need to come out to the wild west and visit, I'll show you a good time and we can go blow sh** up at the range.

 

[jaxvon]

I'd just like to add my thoughts to this. First off, what happened is a tragedy, and my respects go out those affected by it. It's too bad that these things happen.

But as for the gun debate...Buckeye-Nut, we finally agree on something politically. The guns aren't the problem here, though like always the left-wingers and media are going after them with a vengeance. Like many others have said, the issue is with people, not guns. As others have pointed out, strict gun control begets more gun problems. This is clearly illustrated by the handy map below:

And to Robbie, who questions the responsibility of 18-year olds to own guns, I have to ask why. At 18 you can vote on issues concerning guns, you can serve in the military (and own a gun), and, aside from alcohol purchases, you are considered and adult. I am almost 20 now and own several firearms. I trust myself and my friends of similar ages with guns, too. Why? Because we were raised around guns. We were raised to respect them. I've been shooting since I was 6 or 7 years old. When good habits are instilled from an early age, problems relating to firearms won't arise. Now, this is not based on any study, but from my observations, all of the recent school/work shootings (or at least the vast majority of them) have one thing in common: the shooters were not previously gun owners, and were not raised in gun-owning families. These people went out and bought guns for the sole purpose of murder. They were never taught how to properly respect and handle a firearm as I was. This all leads to my point:

We have a major problem with education in this country. Completely disregarding academic subjects, I believe that a big part of the gun problem in this country is the lack of education and subsequent fear of guns. Take my mother, for example. For years she had a fear of guns and was worried about me going out to shoot. That was until she took a hunter's safety course with me. Following the course, she learned that guns are to be respected, not feared. People who are fearful of guns teach their children to always stay away and be afraid. These are the kids that grow up and, one time when they try to save the day, they pick up a gun and end up shooting someone innocent.

 

[stratman]

Robbie it's possible that a future government might turn on us, if the constitution is suspended our rights and freedoms are in jeopardy. It happens in every part of the world, there's no 100% guarantee that it won't happen here.

 

[Tomorrow]

I agree. When Markw wrote that:



I didn't doubt it. In fact, I'll bet the overwhelming majority of the murders are comitted right here in Glasgow.

But whilst I cannot deny that the person standing next to me may shoot me dead with an illegally aquired gun, nevertheless I feel safer on the whole knowing that the overwhelming majority of people standing next to me are weaponlesss.

Call me someone of little faith in humanity, but I contend that if you have a gun on your person, you're more likely to use it. If you've a gun on your person, it's too easy to do from a distance what without it you may not have contemplated doing at all.



I understand. But the right to bear arms was enshrined during a time when there was the real prospect of being attacked from without rather than from within, was it not? This isn't a realistic proability anymore. Even if it was, guns owned by the populace wouldn't have any effect of the type of weapon that'd be being used against you.



Accidents, or deaths?



Refer to 5th paragraph.



Oh I get it alright. I only "cherry-picked" because those were the points I wished to contend. Your other points I agreed with. No political 'hay-making' going on I assure you.



There're too many nutters in the world, and I'm not talking about mentally ill people. I cannot imagine some 18 year olds being considered responsible enough to be allowed to carry a gun. I also cannot imagine that even though different cultures think differently, that 18 year old Americans are much if any different from 18 year olds anywhere else.

Robbie,

We get it that you're against private gun ownership. That was your heritage and that is your mindset. You are arguing from that perspective. There is no logic that states your case beyond that of your predisposition. This is but a cultural phenomenon, so it's understandable.

But know this, please. People have been killing people since there were people around to kill and be killed. (Don't argue that we, as a civilization can outgrow that evil pasttime now that we are...advanced...as a species. Killing has been and will continue to be an unrelenting element of humanity, as much as we all would hope for better.) And in groups, people have waged wars between communities since unique groups/tribes/etc. of people have existed. Call it territoriality. Call it power hunger. Call it survival of the fittest. Call it anything you want. It won't change the fact that to kill is the nature of our species. The IMPLEMENTS of killing (guns in this case) have nothing to do with it. Is it sad? Yes.

Tell your government to ditch all its tanks and attack aircraft and battle cruiser filled navy, etc. Will that help keep killing down? Will that make you safer. No, of course not.

As a point of interest in your comment...if one of the 18 year old "irresponsible" students at VT had a gun, he perhaps could have taken down the murderer before he claimed 32 souls.

 

[WorldLeader]

Hey guys, I think that Robbie here gets the point. We don't need to keep pounding this message into his head, since no one can (or should) change his mind.

My opinion is that guns should be restricted. Nothing scares me more than to think of a society of people that are all armed. True, we may all come together on certain issues to fight the good fight, but there are way too many people who disagree on issues to maintain peace. I am not a radical left-winger, I am not a right-wing cowboy, I don't believe that the current citizens of America are much at all like the old cowboys, and I don't think that the citizens of Scotland take after their feudalistic ancestors.

I am a resident of the great state of Kansas and grew up around guns. I've shot them, and it is pretty fun. I live close to one of the largest military installations in the US, and can usually hear the cannons off in the distance. I drive around at night next to the fort and it was basically a war zone. Things would streak across the sky and explode, and you could always hear the thump thump thump of the artillery. There is a reason that we have commanders and officers to tell you where to shoot your rifle in the military, mistakes are too easy to make.

Just remember:
When you always carry around a hammer, pretty soon everything looks like a nail.

 

[stratman]

Mistakes are easy to make if you're not trained in how to use a gun, the same can be said of any dangerous tool. I don't believe the gist of the posts have been to convert Robbie one way or the other, its been a way for him to understand why we as a culture like arms. Many arguments can be said for or against gun control, but one thing is true: you can't have a cop with you 24 hours a day. And if my car would to break down in a bad part of town, I'd feel better with my Glock under my jacket.

BTW, please guys let's not forget VT in all this. They're what matters now.

 

[nichols540]

Hokies Unite

I just want to remind everyone that this thread is about VT and the tragedy that happened on Monday. If you want to start a gun control thread feel free, but please do not make this issue into something political. Austin Cloyd, one of the girls that died, is the daughter of our new Tax professor. I do not know the Cloyd's personally, but many of my friends had the father as a professor. Please keep your prayers with this family and with our entire community.

I am doing better today. I have spent a lot of time with friends and trying to figure out what the next couple weeks are going to look like. I have been getting emails from professors letting us know that class will be held, but that we are going to take everything day by day. I have no idea how some people will be able to function just one week after this tragedy. We have 8 days of class left before finals. Our school is stunned and although we are all trying to grieve we must try to hold on to some normalcy in our lives.

I know that sitting around and watching the news all day is not good, but I can not turn away because I am afraid I am going to miss some new story.

If any of you know of any drinks that are either maroon or orange please tell me. My friend's 21st birthday is tomorrow night and I am buying him a couple rounds. I would like to have some Hokie remembrance drinks for him.

Please keep the prayers coming and I thank you all for your support.

 

[Buckle-meister]

At least here in Arizona you have to be 21 to own and carry a handgun. Yet an 18yr old can serve in most of today's armed services?

I see a distinction between carrying a handgun in the services and carrying one in public. Although it unsettles me even to see armed servicemen (and women) policing, for example, airports, I'm far more comfortable with that than with an armed general public. I guess I just trust the former more than the latter in that capacity.

...you need to come out to the wild west and visit, I'll show you a good time and we can go blow sh** up at the range.

Yes, that'd be fun I'm sure.

Believe it or not, I have fired a gun before. A shotgun in fact. My old man was a game keeper at one point and had a couple of shotguns (this was many years prior to our own massacre (nobody, it seems, is exempt ) after which gun control was severely restricted in the U.K.

I had a few goes at clay-pigeon shooting. I missed. Still, it was fun I'll grant you, and I can certainly see the attraction for some.

The guns aren't the problem here...the issue is with people, not guns.

Yes, it is. But you simply cannot guarantee the 'quality' of the person with a gun, and therein lies part of the proplem.

I've seen it written many times that guns are simply inanimate objects and that it is foolish to attribute the blame to them when clearly they require intent on the part of the user to inflict damage. All true.

But I read something this morning in one of our papers and I quote:

...surface to air missiles are just lumps of metal as well [as guns]. Maybe we should start selling those...

Now, I accept that this is clearly unrealistic, yet to my mind it is as perfectly logical as the argument for why the gun itself cannot be faulted...yet clearly nobody's about to stock shops with missiles. Can you have it one way and not the other?

...to Robbie, who questions the responsibility of 18-year olds to own guns, I have to ask why. At 18 you can vote on issues concerning guns, you can serve in the military (and own a gun), and, aside from alcohol purchases, you are considered and adult.

I consider myself an adult too Jaxvon, yet as I get older I realise just how young I was only a few years ago and this feeling never ends. When I was 12 I thought I was mature. When I was 18 I realised I was just a kid at 12 and considered myself then to be mature. When I look back now and think of myself at 18 I realise how immature I was then and no doubt when I'm 40 I'll realise how immature I am now. It's a good sign I think.

I don't doubt that there are very mature 18 year olds, for their age, out there. That is not in dispute. What is, is that there're so many 18 year olds that aren't mature for their age, yet they have easy access to an object whose sole purpose is to kill.

When good habits are instilled from an early age, problems relating to firearms won't arise.

I don't doubt it. But what about those people that aren't instilled from an early age with good habits? Where are the controls in place to prevent harm through the use of a firearm either to self or to others?

Robbie it's possible that a future government might turn on us, if the constitution is suspended our rights and freedoms are in jeopardy. It happens in every part of the world, there's no 100% guarantee that it won't happen here.

Nothing is for certain, I agree. But realistically, how likely is what you propose above? Extremely unlikely I would've thought. Wouldn't you?

Besides, a few folk have already noted just how easily illegal arms maybe acquired...

We get it that you're against private gun ownership.

Correction. Hand gun ownership. That, and being allowed to carry them freely on your person at any time.

That was your heritage and that is your mindset. You are arguing from that perspective.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. It's certainly true that I have an opinion, but I quite understand the reasons why Americans enjoy the freedom to carry arms, both from a historical perspective and reasoned arguments.

People have been killing people since there were people around to kill and be killed. (Don't argue that we, as a civilization can outgrow that evil pasttime now that we are...advanced...as a species...

Advanced? Ha! Only humans have the arrogance to consider themselves advanced at present.

As a point of interest in your comment...if one of the 18 year old "irresponsible" students at VT had a gun, he perhaps could have taken down the murderer before he claimed 32 souls.

Yeah, I know. Matt wrote that earlier. I remember being dumbfounded at the time I read it at just how utterly alien a way of thinking this was to me. That the solution to a crime involving arms was to provide people with arms. I never would've considered this. It simply wouldn't have occurred to me.

For what it's worth though, I agree. There's little doubt that had another there had a gun, that the fatalities more than likely would've been less.

...I think that Robbie here gets the point. We don't need to keep pounding this message into his head, since no one can (or should) change his mind.

Thanks World Leader, but you know, I really don't feel I'm being 'nailed' by folk here. I've expressed my thoughts and they've expressed theirs and so far we're all still talking. I can accept the views of others not the same as my own. If I stake my argument and someone (or 10! ) can rationally and logically point out the error of my ways, I am always more than happy to be corrected.

I just want to remind everyone that this thread is about VT and the tragedy that happened on Monday. If you want to start a gun control thread feel free, but please do not make this issue into something political.

I would like to apologise if I come across as trying to make a political statement. I am not. I clearly have my own views regarding guns but have looked here only for insight from those who do not share those views in order that I obtain a more balanced view.

The recent massacre is of course horrific, regardless of where it occurred or under what circumstances.

 

[crewst]

So sad.

My wife asked me last week why I signed up for a CCW course this month and I told her because I am responsible for my family and it's well being and will not leave that responsibility in the hands of our government or it's public services.

If just one other person was armed I imagine there would have been a lower death toll.

The problem there is that the school most likely (99% guarantee) will not allow weapons on the property, therefore making everyone rely on their security people, who didn't bother to shut down the school, despite not finding the gun after the first incident. How about that for a run-on sentence?

The school better pay appropriate tribute to the Holocaust survivor who held the door closed to give his students time to get out, and was killed in the process. There's a hero.

 

[markw]

Well, this post makes absolutely no sense.

The problem there is that the school most likely (99% guarantee) will not allow weapons on the property, therefore making everyone rely on their security people,...

WTF? What are you talking about? You think he's going to bring his family to school?

Besides, Matt's in Arizona. VT was in, well, Virginia?

... who didn't bother to shut down the school, despite not finding the gun after the first incident. How about that for a run-on sentence?

Do you have any idea at all about how big that campus is and the logistics involved? It's not just one or two big buildings like Columbine was. It's city within a city. What buildings should they have locked down? All of them?

Hindsight is 20/20. Of course, now that everyone knows where he WAS, it's easy to say what they should have done.

The school better pay appropriate tribute to the Holocaust survivor who held the door closed to give his students time to get out, and was killed in the process. There's a hero.

I, and no doubt we all agree, but why not tell that to the school administration instead of us.

 

[obscbyclouds]

I think everyone is overplaying the gun issue. If a deranged psychopath like this wants to kill people, not having a gun won't change his mind. For example, Klebold and Harris (the Columbine Killers) planned and deployed bombs made from Propane cylinders, they planned to blow those up and then kill the remaining students leaving the school. There are plenty of ways to kill lots of people without guns. Look at Iraq, most of our casualities are from roadside bombs, not guns, even though plenty of Iraqi's have guns.

Bombs, poisons, fires, cars, etc. I can't think of lots of ways to kill multiple people at once without touching a gun. What we need to do is ID these people before they become derranged, and either treat them or lock them away.

If you all really need to blame something, blame the FERPA act, which doesn't allow discussion of a persons mental state with others.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

It's not the gun laws

Did anyone read the latest news today? The problem wasn't the ease and availability of guns. He could have purchased weapons in any state, any time in the past. He had a clean record. It's a weak argument.

The problem was that he was picked on as a child, in grade school, middle school, and high school. He was ridiculed and made fun of. He was told to "go back to China." His parents brought him here from Korea for a better life, while both worked at a laundry mat. Imagine how hard it would be for us to move to Korea, learn a different language, and be made fun of every day of our lives with no alternative.

Teasing and bullying in no way make it right to open fire and kill others, but one can see the effects teasing and bullying play on children later in life. I'm sure everyone here was teased or bullied in the past. This kid must have been the laughing stock of the school. His boiling point exploded after dozens of years of pent up anger. It seems no one cared enough to open up to him at a young age. It could have been the busy DC school system, or his busy parents. Either way, he was left to fuel his own fire until it was too late.

 

[Tarub]

I think everyone is overplaying the gun issue. If a deranged psychopath like this wants to kill people, not having a gun won't change his mind. For example, Klebold and Harris (the Columbine Killers) planned and deployed bombs made from Propane cylinders, they planned to blow those up and then kill the remaining students leaving the school. There are plenty of ways to kill lots of people without guns. Look at Iraq, most of our casualities are from roadside bombs, not guns, even though plenty of Iraqi's have guns.

Bombs, poisons, fires, cars, etc. I can't think of lots of ways to kill multiple people at once without touching a gun. What we need to do is ID these people before they become derranged, and either treat them or lock them away.

If you all really need to blame something, blame the FERPA act, which doesn't allow discussion of a persons mental state with others.

I agree that this tragedy is not a gun issue nor any other political issue. Yes, sane or insane people doesnt need guns to kill a lot of people. That crazy guy can use just a baseball bat or kithchen knife and kill and hurt some people. Maybe not that many but still can cause a lot of suffering.
The evil Al Qaeda group on 9/11 just used pocket knives to hijack those planes and killed almost 3,000 people and created havoc all over the world.
And I dont think those people have a record of being mentally ill. A person doesnt have to be mentally ill to create a mass killings. It doesnt matter on what religious preference, race, gender, citizenship, etc. Its just about the motivation to kill. Yeah, blame it on violent video games or movies. Yourrre right!
Timothy Mcveigh, veteran of the first gulf war and honorably serve this country. I dont think he has a record of being crazy sometimes. He and the other guy did not have to use guns to kill hundreds of people including toddlers and babies. They just use a mixture of gasoline and fertilizers loaded to a truck to blow up the federal buildings in Oklahoma City.

My thoughts, prayers and sympathy to the victims and their families of Virginia Tech University.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Just a quick word.

I was a semi-witness to the Columbine shootings, as I was attending school in Littleton, Colorado. I wasn't at Columbine, but it would have been my high school had I stayed in Colorado. My classroom was locked down and we were escorted out by a SWAT team. Apparently my school was on a hit-list that was recovered, so extra precautions were taken.

The main factor that was arrived upon at Columbine was mostly that the shooters were social outcasts and frequently teased. I don't think that this was necessarily the case at VT, since issues like bullying aren't a big problem in college. The gunman at VT was obviously emotionally unstable and probably was "on his way out" for a while.

As much as it seems harsh to say this, I am not really surprised at all that this shooting occurred, given the shooter's rep. Some people are too far gone and really can't function normally, and sometimes the people in charge need to recognize this and remove this person from the system. I don't know specifically what was wrong with this gunman, but whenever you are running around laughing while shooting people you have issues that "counseling" can't solve.

I was just reading through all the threads, and yours was the first to hit the nail on the head (and you didn't even realize it). "Social outcasts...frequently teased."

Parents really need to probe their kids at a young age to make sure this isn't going on. Teachers and school bus drivers can step in and make a huge difference. Fellow classmates are too often afraid of the bullies, and rarely step in to help.

 

[Yamahaluver]

While on subject of teasing, I witnessed it many times at high school, growing up in NY, I was not subjected much to it as everyone was aware of my build and massive temper, but other students got their fair share of it, I remember in a public bus, few Chinese college girls were constantly taunted by school kids till they had to step off the bus, things like this has to stop, parents have to be controlled themselves, kids are like sponges, they absorb what goes on at home, then outside, so if the father and mother makes ethno centric jokes, taunts at home, the kid goes outside and does the same, all this leaves a deep mark in other kids and thats what people just don't realize. Many Indian kids who grow up in US come back to India for the very same reason, I am sure there are others who go through this as well. I am not defending Cho as what he has done is despicable in every sense, but lets prevent all this at root as Buckeyefan1 says, prevention is the only way out here.