Marantz AV 10 installed: - Early Review and Impressions.

[Trell]

SINAD is a useful generalized number. It's not an end-all-be-all. It's a number that says - if you are playing a recording at an SPL that equals the SINAD number, all the 'measured' distortions in the SINAD number are at or below audibility. Inference example - SPL is 110 dB spl; SINAD of component is 110; Audible distortion of component is 0dB spl or less. 0dB spl is a reference for audibility - It's not silence.

The greater the SINAD number, the less chance there will be audible distortion. Distortion in this case is comprised of elements of the sound that are measured.

Baked into the definition SINAD (SIgnal-to-Noise And Distortion, typically measured at 1 kHz) is noise, and that means that for the same SINAD number there can be different amounts of noise and distortion. While humans listen to a fair amount of distortion without noticing it, the noise can be much more easily apparent.

There are other measures that gives a better information but then we're typically looking at graphs. If you go to ASR you'll see many reviews making such measurements.

Amps and preamps do sound different. My own references for SOTA sound quality and neutrality are the Benchmark products. I don't claim they are the only references. I claim they are in the rare camp of real references. There is more than enough online data to explore these thoughts. Many pros use their products for references. They are very reliable. They are very hi-end for home use without being ridiculous in price.

My pro references were - Neve, SSL, Euphonics, JBL, Genelec, QSC, dbx, Grass Valley, Shure, Crown, EV, and host of other variable quality equipment. I didn't use any stand alone preamps.

I don't particularly care for amps/DSP/electronics to be built-in the speakers. Having the electronics in a component subject to large mechanical and acoustical vibrations is counter productive. Snarky opinion - it's the definition of insanity, at least in home situations where the maximum in sound quality and longevity is desired. It has better application in some pro venues.

Genelec, one of your stated preferences, have been making active monitors for decades. They work excellently for home use as well, and in my case desktop. I've two Genelec 2.1 setups that works fine, have so for years, and I expect to get many more years of usage out of them.

 

[PaulBe]

Baked into the definition SINAD (SIgnal-to-Noise And Distortion, typically measured at 1 kHz) is noise, and that means that for the same SINAD number there can be different amounts of noise and distortion. While humans listen to a fair amount of distortion without noticing it, the noise can be much more easily apparent.

There are other measures that gives a better information but then we're typically looking at graphs. If you go to ASR you'll see many reviews making such measurements.



Genelec, one of your stated preferences, have been making active monitors for decades. They work excellently for home use as well, and in my case desktop. I've two Genelec 2.1 setups that works fine, have so for years, and I expect to get many more years of usage out of them.

Perhaps I wasn't clear about 'pro references' or the concept of active speakers in home situations.

My pro references referred to equipment I used. I did get to pick some of it.

My comments about active speakers concerned home theater - this is an AV10 HT processor thread. Long line level cable from preamp/processor and DSP/crossover to amps > and short speaker cables to speakers is my prefered choice for the reasons I stated, and is what I do. This is still an active system. I could use shorter line level cables and longer speaker cables and the situation would be similar, and still an active system.

My nearfield desktop monitoring is Focal CMS 65's. they are active. I have used them for years, and hope to use them for many more years. They are 'use specific'.

It's generally a bad idea to put audio electronics in or next to devices that vibrate. Few manufacturers of home equipment make systems that have the build quality of Genelec or Focal nearfield monitors. I'm sure your Genelec systems sound wonderful.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's generally a bad idea to put audio electronics in or next to devices that vibrate.

Thank you! That's what I've been saying for years.

 

[PaulBe]

Thank you! That's what I've been saying for years.

Think of this:

The AV10 has a triple layered chassis for isolation, stiffness, and damping. Now add active monitors with the amps and DSP in the speakers. Things that make me go Huh!

Edit - I should add that my heights are Not active. Just a conventional speaker level crossover at the drivers. I want to replace them with my DIYSG volt 10's or my Vortex 15's, or a Radian 12" coax I've seen - all with compression tweeters. Just not sure of a mounting system yet that looks nice in the room.

 

[TLS Guy]

One can check system information to see just what the hell is going on. One can also post a pic of that information for the benefit of all.
View attachment 73769

So, I have got round to doing what you wanted. It does not let you show an eARC input. When you try you can't see the setup screen. Anyhow I used a BPO BD disc that sounds identical to the stream of the same program.

So this is the photograph of the input screen you asked for. I doubt that will make you much the wiser, as I already told that information.

Now let's go back to square one. I am not going to the trouble of doing measurements on this unit on the bench. First it has been measured by two competent individuals so I would have nothing to add. The measurements are exemplary, with SNR having a colossal improvement.

I did not buy the AV 10 with the expectation of greatly improved SQ, except for absence of audible background in a silent room. This I have verified and the room no signal is totally quiet. You would not know the rig was on, with the other AVRs you did, as soon as they were switched on. Part of this is due to that fact 12 drivers in the system are directly connected to their amps with no passive crossover. A passive crossover will attenuate the signal 3 to 12 db depending on order, so 3db of first and 6db for second and so on.

Now lets address why I made the mistake of buying the 7706. I guess I figured that the AV 10 would not be a huge improvement, it was costly and I thought the 7705 failure was bad luck. But I think the bigger reason was idleness. The 7706 was physically and exact replacement.

The AV 10 is taller, longer and weighs 37lb. It also required a costly (over $300.00) and heavy aftermarket rack case. In this rig it has to be rack mounted, no doubt about that. So getting the weight up to 50 lb. meant careful thought. That is far too much weight to be supported just on the front rack ears. Truly pro equipment of that weight goes between the front AND back mounting holes, so is bolted to the rack front and back.

So I had to contrive a shelf on rails between the front and back girders of the rack. This worked well. Then there were gaps, as the mount had standard spacing but other domestic units do not. So I had to fashion spacers to supplement the two 3U rack spacers I bought. These had to be fabricated in my shop and painted. This whole process spread over three days, actually four with all the set up and measuring.

Now whether you want to believe me or not, the sonic soundstage presented by the AV 10 is dramatically better and more realistic than the two that went before. The BPO call their Atmos stream immersive audio. With the 7705 and 7706 the sound was in no way immersive, with the AV 10 it truly is. This is the first time I have truly heard the famed acoustic of the Philharmonie in Berlin. You realistically hear the ring of the hall and superb left right, front back and height representation of the orchestra choirs and high balcony musicians and choirs when present. The previous units fell way short of that realization. I am not imagining that, it is the absolute truth, whether you want to believe it or not.

So, this leads me to speculate on the practicality of the point we have reached in home audio.

I think a good reason that the other units failed was that they were based on AVRs, and the components did not have adequate spacing. When I build my HTPCs and DAWs, I am very fussy as to layout. I measure temperatures of critical components carefully, and my builds have had very "long legs". This was one of many lessons I learned from Peter Walker, that internal layout is critically important. If you throw it together it will be short lived.

That gets me to the point I been hammering for a long time, especially as complexity has increased and the number of power amps increased at the same time.

So, in my view an Atmos receiver is a total waste of time and resources. More than two or three power amps to a case runs it a close second.
This is especially true with Atmos, as the speakers other then the front three can take significant power.

I honestly think if we are going to pursue all these channels and speakers, it makes the case for active speakers. This not only makes more room in the AVP for better cooling and longer life, but effectively frees up space in the room. The big advantage is that it means there will only be two or three amplifiers per box. The will end this power per channels driven nonsense. Power amps should be able to deliver their designed power at anytime called for, and NOT dependent on what neighboring amps are doing. That is the route to disaster.

So yes, I am pleased I now have the AV10 installed with results above my expectation, but it highlights that in terms of home AV system we are driving headlong down the wrong road to the cliff. We need to change our hardware architecture and current practices fast, or people will get more discouraged than they are now.

 

[lovinthehd]

Mixed in Atmos, not upmixed.

I see this for the Berlin Philharmoniker stream:
"In the Philharmonie Berlin, the unique sound of the Berliner Philharmoniker meets an important component of the musical experience: space. It is precisely this spatial experience that we want you to feel directly.We achieve this by recreating the spatiality of the auditorium with a complex algorithm when mixing the sound signal. And since every musical work has a different line-up and the instrumental groups are not always seated in the same place on stage, we create each mix with individual parameters for each individual work.An important role is played here by an upmix process specially adapted to the Philharmonie Berlin, which was developed by sound engineer Benedikt Schröder and, in collaboration with Andreas Wolf, is used to mix the concerts in the Digital Concert Hall. This then converts the concert recordings in stereo into Dolby Atmos 7.1.4.The new Immersive Audio format is available at no extra cost.

 

[Trebdp83]

There is no need to continue to apologize for purchasing the 7706. It was a practical replacement for the 7705. Now, you have the AV 10 and all is well. Two failed units out of many sold is no cause for alarm. Though, it is a bummer if you owned both of them.

Everybody budgets a certain amount of money for their personal interests. Some spend fortunes on music festivals, which have gotten criminally expensive, and some on physical music media and equipment. The finest components and state of the art processing do not come cheap. That is simply the way it is. Unfortunately, Smart speakers and soundbars have been marketed as being every bit as capable as better components and speakers. They are more convenient for many for sure, but they aren't exactly giving those pieces of s#%t away these days.

Quality powered monitors are also extremely expensive and if one wants a 9.4.6 configuration, they'd better have lots of power outlets and cash on hand. A middle of the road set of speakers and AVR make sense for many and, if set up properly and played within their limits, can deliver many years of movie and music enjoyment.

 

[TLS Guy]

I see this for the Berlin Philharmoniker stream:
"In the Philharmonie Berlin, the unique sound of the Berliner Philharmoniker meets an important component of the musical experience: space. It is precisely this spatial experience that we want you to feel directly.We achieve this by recreating the spatiality of the auditorium with a complex algorithm when mixing the sound signal. And since every musical work has a different line-up and the instrumental groups are not always seated in the same place on stage, we create each mix with individual parameters for each individual work.An important role is played here by an upmix process specially adapted to the Philharmonie Berlin, which was developed by sound engineer Benedikt Schröder and, in collaboration with Andreas Wolf, is used to mix the concerts in the Digital Concert Hall. This then converts the concert recordings in stereo into Dolby Atmos 7.1.4.The new Immersive Audio format is available at no extra cost.

Some ad man with no clue wrote that. In some of the views you can see they have the classic University of Sheffield classic Atmos mic setup, and in any event that have an advanced digital studio I have seen pictures of. Of course they are going to keep digital files from each recording microphone, everyone does that now. The Atmos mix is released about 3 to 4 months after the 2 channel release, and you can tell they have put a lot of work into it.

 

[TLS Guy]

There is no need to continue to apologize for purchasing the 7706. It was a practical replacement for the 7705. Now, you have the AV 10 and all is well. Two failed units out of many sold is no cause for alarm. Though, it is a bummer if you owned both of them.

Everybody budgets a certain amount of money for their personal interests. Some spend fortunes on music festivals, which have gotten criminally expensive, and some on physical music media and equipment. The finest components and state of the art processing do not come cheap. That is simply the way it is. Unfortunately, Smart speakers and soundbars have been marketed as being every bit as capable as better components and speakers. They are more convenient for many for sure, but they aren't exactly giving those pieces of s#%t away these days.

Quality powered monitors are also extremely expensive and if one wants a 9.4.6 configuration, they'd better have lots of power outlets and cash on hand. A middle of the road set of speakers and AVR make sense for many and, if set up properly and played within their limits, can deliver many years of movie and music enjoyment.

I would bet there are a lot more of those 7705 and 7706 units blowing up than we know about. If that is not so, then the odds of me ending up with two duds would be enormous.

 

[Trebdp83]

You are just lucky I guess and beat the odds.