KEF Speakers

[monkish54]

The former implies you know how to correlate measurements to perception and know what to listen for.

Yes it does.

However, the latter implies you're unsure about what you're hearing unless you validate it with measurements. Your latter statement debunks the former. So which is it? What good are "great" measurements if you cannot hear the difference?

No. I can tell if the sound has breakup (it will sound harsh..ask my old Tags BLEH), if the imaging is poor I can guess there is a problem with the off-axis (that could be the room), etc.

What I can't do, is listen and say there is a peak at 6khz so it sounds this way. There is a dip at 2314hz so it sounds this way. Etc. I need measurements for that level of detail. Will I be able to hear a bunch of peaks, sure, but i might not be able to identify it as such while listening. If I listened to that speaker and then looked at the measurements, I would be able to see that it was a series of peaks that caused this problem. Now if I'd do it in the opposite order, I could say, wow this speaker has large peaks throughout the audible band, this might cause problems with some material.

To answer your question: both. I can pick out problems while listening, but I'm not superman with golden ears, I need mechanical help as well!

Also, the latter implies I am unsure of whether what I am hearing is neutral. Perhaps I enjoy the sound, but that doesn't mean the sound is neutral. I did enjoy the B&W 800.. (Didn't like the imaging though...) I want the measurements to validate this for me.

Perhaps the content I listened to didn't excite a certain problem, but my other material will? Measurements make it far easier to identify neutrality than trying with my ears alone. A/B between a neutral and not-so-neutral speaker would be a different story.

 

[Nuance AH]

^ Have you used Harman's listening tool called "How To Listen?" It will help hone your skills regarding peaks and dips and understanding what frequencies they are at.

Audio Musings by Sean Olive: Harman's "How to Listen" Listener Training Software Now Available as Beta

Measurements help explain why you hear what you hear, of course. But you'd need in-room measurements for that, and since no one listens in an anechoic chamber the anechoic measurements only tell you how "accurate" a speaker can sound. They won't fully tell you how they do/will sound in your room because the room will effect the direct sound, skewing the frequency response. In my opinion, measurements also won't tell you if you'll like the speaker better than another that measurements equally as well. This is why you have these odd looking things called ears.

Your approach is unique "fo sho," but I urge you to also enjoy the sound that you enjoy. There's nothing wrong with liking something that isn't ruler flat or what you'd call "neutral." I like tubes, even though I know darn well it's likely adding distortion. Who cares, though, because if it sounds good to me then that's all that matters. This isn't a pissing contest or a who has a bigger d#$% shootout; it's also not about who owns the latest and greatest, the most expensive or even the most gear. The experts have already done all the heavy lifting, making it easier for you to simply listen to a bunch of stuff that you deem worthy, which you can do by researching and using measurements to first help narrow it down). You can do whatever you want to, but try to remember what this hobby is about (listening and enjoying the music or HT).

 

[monkish54]

^ Have you used Harman's listening tool called "How To Listen?"

A little bit. It's very good. I'll eventually start using it again!

Measurements help explain why you hear what you hear, of course. But you'd need in-room measurements for that, and since no one listens in an anechoic chamber the anechoic measurements only tell you how "accurate" a speaker can sound. They won't fully tell you how they do/will sound in your room because the room will effect the direct sound, skewing the frequency response.

I don't disagree. There is good reason to measure anechoically though.

In my opinion, measurements also won't tell you if you'll like the speaker better than another that measurements equally as well. This is why you have these odd looking things called ears.

Better? I don't disagree with that at all. For instance, my Phils measure closely to the Salon 2. (In many ways, not all. For instance VC modulation and power compression will be better in the Salon 2) The Salon 2, however, has 3 8" high exertion woofers compared to my one 8". The Salon 2 will definitely sound different...and feel different. So, in reality, until I have my full suite of measurements, measuring everything about a speaker, I must use my knowledge of speaker design along with the measurements.

There's nothing wrong with liking something that isn't ruler flat or what you'd call "neutral."

I don't disagree with this one bit. I don't think my philosophy is any better than anyone else's. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting sound you'll enjoy. Audio is the hobby you make it.

I like tubes, even though I know darn well it's likely adding distortion.

The reason I don't!

Who cares, though, because if it sounds good to me then that's all that matters.

Agreed!

This isn't a pissing contest or a who has a bigger d#$% shootout

No it's not. That said...you free in an hour, or...?

You can do whatever you want to, but try to remember what this hobby is about (listening and enjoying the music or HT).

I completely agree. I very much enjoy listening to my Philharmonic 2s.

Did your wife ever bloom?

 

[Nuance AH]

No it's not. That said...you free in hour, or...?

Okay, that's the funniest thing I've read all day. LOL!

Did your wife ever bloom?

What are you talking about?

 

[monkish54]

What are you talking about?

Long ago, probably in this galaxy, you said you were planting a seed of Philharmonics into your wife's head.

 

[monkish54]

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/write-your-own-review/83063-philharmonic-2-dennis-murphy-paul-kittinger.html

 

[Nuance AH]

Long ago, probably in this galaxy, you said you were planting a seed of Philharmonics into your wife's head.

Oh LOL. Well, I had them here for a week, and she attended the GTG we used them at, so unfortunately that seed never bloomed. The pair we had had a loose crossover wire that shorted during playback, so she (we) never heard the Phil2 in all its glory. I hope to demo/beta test Dennis' new design, though, so there is hope for me to be a Murphy owner yet (even though I pretty much am already).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh LOL. Well, I had them here for a week, and she attended the GTG we used them at, so unfortunately that seed never bloomed. The pair we had had a loose crossover wire that shorted during playback, so she (we) never heard the Phil2 in all its glory. I hope to demo/beta test Dennis' new design, though, so there is hope for me to be a Murphy owner yet (even though I pretty much am already).

Maybe that's a sign from above telling you to diversify your speaker portfolio and branch out to some Revel or KEF?

 

[monkish54]

Maybe that's a sign from above telling you to diversify your speaker portfolio and branch out to some Revel or KEF?

I think it's a sign from Joe Pesci (If you like George Carlin..you'll get it.)

 

[jcunwired]

This has got to be the most ADHD speaker thread in history I came here to learn more about Kef, while I didn't count I'd bet a bottle of Dom Perignon they weren't mentioned ten times in 13 pages!

"The former implies you know how to correlate measurements to perception and know what to listen for."

How about the ability to correlate measurements to perception and know what to listen against?

I live in the boonies, auditioning speakers is neither easy nor particularly rewarding. A heck of a lot of fun, but I've yet to hear anything then go back and buy it. It took me the better part of a year, a couple hundred gallons of gas, several expensive dinners and cognacs to dismiss about 20 models before I bought Philharmonic speakers without auditioning first. I understand that the advice is sound, but not always practical, and certainly not the only path to success. Besides, it's even less practical to have brought those 20 speaker sets into my home, where the only place an audition truly matters. My alternative was to learn as much as I could, and never stop learning, to understand on paper what I know my senses will not enjoy, my space not accept. Then, silly me, I learn some more from the One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest gang and weigh your recommendations against auditory and scientific memory. Hey, it works - ask Smokey, umm, Jared.

I've just done it again, this time only 12 or so bookshelf speakers topping out at about $1200, liked none of them and blindly bought a pair of speakers that will not wow any of you, but they work for me (Kef Q300) at half my budget. Actually they work better in a different space, so I get to do it all over again, and in all likelihood my choice will be a pair impossible for me to audition - I've exhausted everything in a 100 mile radius. I've hit two home runs so far, no reason to believe my education to learn what I like and my ears to know what I don't will fail me now. That said, I just may bite on a pair of Totem Model 1 Signature on Audiogon, which I did audition a couple years ago.

So, how about that thread on avsforum comparing Kef LS50 to a cat's butt?

 

[monkish54]

A heck of a lot of fun, but I've yet to hear anything then go back and buy it.

Agreed! Nor have I! I've listed to something like 40 or so different pairs of speakers...

My alternative was to learn as much as I could, and never stop learning, to understand on paper what I know my senses will not enjoy, my space not accept. Then, silly me, I learn some more from the One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest gang and weigh your recommendations against auditory and scientific memory.

That's what I've done. Learn and never stop leaning. Now that I've learned what most of these "thing" are, I'm now learning how to calculate them. The general range of cone breakup, the resonance frequency of a driver, etc. Yay science, math, and learning.

Hey, it works - ask Smokey, umm, Jared.

I practically pissed myself!!

Bought a pair of (Kef Q300) at half my budget.

Nice choice!

So, how about that....Kef LS50

I imagine it'd make a great computer/near-field speaker, but not such a great anything else.

cat's butt?

Let's not talk about that...wouldn't want my furries to get excited..

 

[Nuance AH]

This has got to be the most ADHD speaker thread in history I came here to learn more about Kef, while I didn't count I'd bet a bottle of Dom Perignon they weren't mentioned ten times in 13 pages!

"The former implies you know how to correlate measurements to perception and know what to listen for."

How about the ability to correlate measurements to perception and know what to listen against?

I live in the boonies, auditioning speakers is neither easy nor particularly rewarding. A heck of a lot of fun, but I've yet to hear anything then go back and buy it. It took me the better part of a year, a couple hundred gallons of gas, several expensive dinners and cognacs to dismiss about 20 models before I bought Philharmonic speakers without auditioning first. I understand that the advice is sound, but not always practical, and certainly not the only path to success. Besides, it's even less practical to have brought those 20 speaker sets into my home, where the only place an audition truly matters. My alternative was to learn as much as I could, and never stop learning, to understand on paper what I know my senses will not enjoy, my space not accept. Then, silly me, I learn some more from the One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest gang and weigh your recommendations against auditory and scientific memory. Hey, it works - ask Smokey, umm, Jared.

I've just done it again, this time only 12 or so bookshelf speakers topping out at about $1200, liked none of them and blindly bought a pair of speakers that will not wow any of you, but they work for me (Kef Q300) at half my budget. Actually they work better in a different space, so I get to do it all over again, and in all likelihood my choice will be a pair impossible for me to audition - I've exhausted everything in a 100 mile radius. I've hit two home runs so far, no reason to believe my education to learn what I like and my ears to know what I don't will fail me now. That said, I just may bite on a pair of Totem Model 1 Signature on Audiogon, which I did audition a couple years ago.

So, how about that thread on avsforum comparing Kef LS50 to a cat's butt?

Sounds like you did things "right" to me. It is interesting you ended up keeping two pairs you've never auditioned. All that matters is that you're happy, though.

By the way, a good speaker will sound good in a variety of rooms, and it just so happens the two you ended up buying and keeping were designed to do so. Me thinks you have a great set of ears, or at least know exactly what you want. Good for you!

Let's not talk about that...wouldn't want my furries to get excited..

Ewww...yikes!

 

[ratso]

i'm not really a huge fan of overpriced "flagship" speakers because they usually fall far short of the hype. but those blades sounded surprisingly good at axpona this weekend.

 

[Hocky]

i'm not really a huge fan of overpriced "flagship" speakers because they usually fall far short of the hype. but those blades sounded surprisingly good at axpona this weekend.

They weren't playing when I was in the room, I wish that they were. I didn't want to wait because I thought that the KEF's in the other were room poor. I can't remember which model those ones were?

 

[jcunwired]

Thanks for the positive comments Monk & Nuance!

I'd like to trade up the Q300 for R300, but can't find a pair used or discounted, $1800 is a bit over budget, and not sure they are 3x as good.

 

[canelli]

I tried both the Q300s and R300s for an in house demo. I bought the R300s, but not for $1800.

 

[monkish54]

Thanks for the positive comments Monk & Nuance!

I'd like to trade up the Q300 for R300, but can't find a pair used or discounted, $1800 is a bit over budget, and not sure they are 3x as good.

For 1800 I'd go with one of the many kits avaliable at madisound and meniscus. Illuminator combo for 2K.. Can anyone say "**** yes"??

 

[jcunwired]

I tried both the Q300s and R300s for an in house demo. I bought the R300s, but not for $1800.

Yes, I read of your adventure when I was doing my research, sounded like a lot of fun. Your initial thoughts on the Q300 helped with my decision. In the room they're in I have no choice but to place them 8' high, but my ceiling is 25'. I have no audible problem with bass bloom. They're sitting on Auralex Mopads I had from a previous setup (lets face it, the Q300 cabinets can use all the help they can get with resonance ), tilted down about 12 degrees. Did your R300 go in the same location?

 

[lsiberian]

This has got to be the most ADHD speaker thread in history I came here to learn more about Kef, while I didn't count I'd bet a bottle of Dom Perignon they weren't mentioned ten times in 13 pages!

I counted 10 times should I PM my address?

 

[Steve81]

A little bit of information (specifically a small batch of measurements on all of the speakers) for those interested in the Q series:
http://www.audiocinema-art.hr/UserFiles/File/recenzije/Stereoplay_02_11_Kef_Q_E.pdf