P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The point of this audition for me is to better define (or invalidate if I could not repeat) the aspect of the ls50 that did not sit so well with me. As such I primarily focused on that aspect of the sound.

I started out listening to the ls50's against the Canton Vento 820.2's. This seemed like a logical comparison since both have a list price of $1500. However, the Vento has a 6" woofer which goes pretty deep and from my perspective, aside from making sure it is not muddy or over-blown, bass is not too relevant as I would generally use a sub with either (the Vento might get away without a sub in a smaller room). In any case, I found the large difference in the bass between these two masked many of the more subtle differences.

I gave it some thought and pulled out my EmpTek 41se/B speakers. These little darlings are still among the best speakers I have ever heard. Their limitations are bass (4" Be mid-woofer) and SPL (as you would expect from a 6-3/4" W x 11-1/2" H x 10-1/4" D box). I listened at a distance of 4 ft. at moderate levels which would not challenge the EmpTek's SPL limits while satisfying my objective of listing to the ls50 under near-field conditions.

Norah Jones - Don't Know Why


Norah has an airiness in her voice. As a perverse analogy, it is kind of like the way Gollum says "precious" along with the pure sound of her voice. Unlike Gollum, it lends a seductive quality and is part of the intimacy of a female singer in a night club. This "whisper" is diminished on the ls50. I could describe the ls50 as sounding like she is singing without a microphone in a small venue. Or, perhaps a music hall where the mic was hanging in the air 10' away.

After I wrote these notes, I looked at John Atkinson's measurements and comments as presented in my post above, and believe that fits my subjective experience fairly well.

Ed Palermo's Big Band - RNDZL

This is a modern Big Band playing a re-arranged version of Frank Zappa'a RNDZL. It starts with an aggressive drum lead in and I was impressed with how realistically the ls50's brought the impacts of the drum hits into my room (especially given its size!). I think this is one of the strengths of the ls50's over other speakers in its price range!

At around 0:30 the drummer starts tapping the ride cymbal while accompanying an alto sax solo. The 41se/b presented this as tap followed by the ring of the cymbal. On the KEF the tap is not as prominent and the subsequent ring is almost inaudible.
Strangely, when the drummer does this later accompanying a trombone solo, the KEF does better with it. I don't know if the drummer was being more assertive with the more powerful trombone or if there is something about the harmonics of an Alto Sax vs Trombone that would mask the ride cymbal more with the sax? The sound is still more prominent on the 41se/b, but I would not have an opinion on which was "right" (to my ear).

I also did not like the loss of the upper harmonics of the glockenspiel in this song.

Pink Floyd - Time


The main difference here is how the bells presented near the start. The EmpTek sounded as if they were closer to being in the room, while the KEF placed them "down the hall".
The KEF did a fine job with both the male and female vocals on this song. Switching between the speakers, the relevant difference was the comparative bass lacking of the EmpTek's, and I fully enjoyed finishing out the song listening to the KEF's.

Yes - Heart of the Sunrise

Bill Bruford's drumming is front and center through this song and the drums sounded somewhat veiled on the KEFs as compared to the EmpTeks. I think, again, this is due to the suppression of the cymbals' HF content.
That said, the KEF's otherwise completely trashed the EmpTeks on this song. They fleshed it out wonderfully and made the EmpTeks sound absolutely "thin" in comparison, and I'm talking more than just deeper bass! This is a good place to point out that if you think I am saying the EmpTek is a better speaker, you would be wrong; my objective is to focus on and explain what I found lacking in the ls50!
Interestingly, the airiness in Jon Anderson's voice was diminished, but it just didn't matter that much with his voice. I don't "feel the loss" of it the way I did with Norah. IOW, when I A-B speakers, I mainly respond to my sense of loss, or the thrill of an improvement. If I don't feel it, it is not so much of consequence in my subjective comparison.

Steely Dan - I got the News

Initially, the KEF sounded great on the tight percussive content of Steely Dan, but later into the song, the drums sounded veiled. Upon revisit, I realized when the high-hat is being played, it sounded like the drum kit was tucked in a recess behind the band (not a very significant difference), but at 1:52 where the ride cymbal is played, once again, the KEF's presentation puts a thin veil over the drum set, which for me is a loss.

Chet Atkins (with George Benson) - Sunrise

Again the difference showed in the drum set. The blur of dozens of individual brush strikes on the snare drum is more realistic with the added high frequency energy of the EmpTeks.
The triangle presents as "somewhere back in the back" on the KEF.
I like to close my eyes and envision the musicians/instruments and in this case, the seemed about 15' away on stage with the EmpTek and in an orchestra pit with the KEF.

I think this song would be the one I would choose if I wanted to demonstrate the shortcoming of the KEF's HF presentation! In a way having it happening in female vocals is more damning, but the brushes and triangle would take on a substantially different nature when I switched between the speakers.

Emilie-Claire Barlow – C’est Si Bon

At this point, I think I am beating a dead horse. I will just say I experienced the same as with Norah Jones - the intimacy from the air in Emillie-Claire Barlow's voice is suppressed on the KEFs.

Lyle Lovett - She's No Lady

Lyle Lovett has one of the fullest richest voices I have ever heard, but I really had not recognized that he actually also has some of that air in his voice! However, just like with Jon Anderson (probably more so), it doesn't matter. For me, it is a difference, but neither good nor bad.

Conclusion

Among the music I listened to, with the exception of the air in female voices, ride cymbal, glockenspiel, brushes, and triangle, the KEF presented sounds with a breath-taking clarity that is a solid benchmark in its price class.
I like a lot about the ls50's and fully understand why they are so well liked.
I know I like a forward rather than laid-back speaker, so that is definitely part of the equation.
Furthermore, if I could not instantly switch between speakers in the middle of a note, I'm not sure how much I would notice these differences.
I believe Steely Dan, Yes, and Pink Floyd would all present perfectly well on the KEF without the instant comparison.
It is the "night club" female vocals (Norah Jones and Emillie Claire Barlow) and the Chet Atkins tune where I believe I would still sense a difference given a 2 minute delay between listening to one speaker or the other.
Listening to the big band, now that I know to listen for the ride cymbal, I would notice, but otherwise, I doubt I would pick it out as an issue without the instant comparison. I don't think I would notice the glockenspiel differences were it not for the instant comparison. It sounded great on the KEF!
What I am hedging at is, I think that for many types of music, the KEFs give up nothing.
Wow, such a nice review that I must read it again from beginning to end after work.:D My immediate reaction is that I have similar experience in some ways when comparing the LS50, R900 and 1028 Be. Also, now I know why you like your Focal, I bet you would like the 1028 Be too. I hope you still have time to try them with a sub and XO100, you may or may not get a little more "air".
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So as long as I don't look at anyone else's yard, I'll love the way you trim my hedges?
I have to disagree. I would not consider that a fair analogy!
Good sound is good sound, and the ls50's are a good sounding speaker!
I tried my best to define the specific aspect that I returned them for, and how it shows up when listening to music.
I am not returning them because I consider them a poor or poorly designed speaker. I am returning them because, for me and the music I listen to, that air/forwardness is important.
I hope this information would help guide others in deciding whether or not they should audition them.
As I posted earlier, I think John Atkinson fairly captured my observations with his graph and commentary.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Wow, such a nice review that I must read it again from beginning to end after work.:D My immediate reaction is that I have similar experience in some ways when comparing the LS50, R900 and 1028 Be. Also, now I know why you like your Focal, I bet you would like the 1028 Be too. I hope you still have time to try them with a sub and XO100, you may or may not get a little more "air".
Thank you.

Unfortunately, I had to ship them back to Amazon by 2/1/18.

How might a sub effect the air of the speaker?

Maybe, one of these days, I will get a chance to compare my Focal Twin6s against the 1028 Be. It'd be interesting to see how/if Focal decided to change the sound between their pro audio monitors and home consumer speakers. They appear to have the same drivers as best I could determine.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you.

Unfortunately, I had to ship them back to Amazon by 2/1/18.

How might a sub effect the air of the speaker?

Maybe, one of these days, I will get a chance to compare my Focal Twin6s against the 1028 Be. It'd be interesting to see how/if Focal decided to change the sound between their pro audio monitors and home consumer speakers. They appear to have the same drivers as best I could determine.
I don't know but you never know.. I do know B&W's 800 series have good air, have you audition any 804s, doesn't need to be diamond even the 804S should give some good air too.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Hi KEW,. Your assessment about LS50 is right on the money even though I have not heard your other speaker. But now after reading your impression. I want to.

Have you compared different amps with LS50? I currently use a Parasound amp that is very similar to A21 in the amp section and wondering if I will improve sound significantly by moving to one of the other higher prices amps.

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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Hi KEW,. Your assessment about LS50 is right on the money even though I have not heard your other speaker. But now after reading your impression. I want to.

Have you compared different amps with LS50? I currently use a Parasound amp that is very similar to A21 in the amp section and wondering if I will improve sound significantly by moving to one of the other higher prices amps.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
The ls50 is not a particularly difficult load, and given I was 4 ft away and keeping the volume down so as not to stress the smaller speaker, I honestly do not believe I was anywhere near stressing the AVR which bench tested at 134WRMS X 2 at 8 Ohms and 204WRMS X 2 at 4 Ohms. Marantz SR6001 in pure direct (and no video connections).

If there actually is a difference in sound from switching amps, I have to believe it is negligible in comparison to switching speakers, and I am not interested in owning a speaker that requires an amp that has some sort of unique sound character to correct for the speaker.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I have to disagree. I would not consider that a fair analogy!
Good sound is good sound, and the ls50's are a good sounding speaker!
I tried my best to define the specific aspect that I returned them for, and how it shows up when listening to music.
I am not returning them because I consider them a poor or poorly designed speaker. I am returning them because, for me and the music I listen to, that air/forwardness is important.
I hope this information would help guide others in deciding whether or not they should audition them.
As I posted earlier, I think John Atkinson fairly captured my observations with his graph and commentary.
Not a fair analogy?

"Among the music I listened to, with the exception of the air in female voices, ride cymbal, glockenspiel, brushes, and triangle, the KEF presented sounds with a breath-taking clarity that is a solid benchmark in its price class.
I like a lot about the ls50's and fully understand why they are so well liked.
I know I like a forward rather than laid-back speaker, so that is definitely part of the equation.
Furthermore, if I could not instantly switch between speakers in the middle of a note, I'm not sure how much I would notice these differences.
I believe Steely Dan, Yes, and Pink Floyd would all present perfectly well on the KEF without the instant comparison.
It is the "night club" female vocals (Norah Jones and Emillie Claire Barlow) and the Chet Atkins tune where I believe I would still sense a difference given a 2 minute delay between listening to one speaker or the other.
Listening to the big band, now that I know to listen for the ride cymbal, I would notice, but otherwise, I doubt I would pick it out as an issue without the instant comparison. I don't think I would notice the glockenspiel differences were it not for the instant comparison. It sounded great on the KEF!
What I am hedging at is, I think that for many types of music, the KEFs give up nothing."


They sound great, as long as you don't listen to anything else?

I agree and have stated I think these sound great, except in the whole octave where they don't. Clearly some people aren't bothered by it, and more power to them! But as others have chimed in having similar discontent at the same frequencies, I don't think these measurements or the fact that you have even returned these speakers two or three times now, should be so easily dismissed.

To me, this audible and measurable flaw is inexcusable given its price and the market saturation of 2 way bookshelf loudspeakers - there's just too many other options!
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
To me, this audible and measurable flaw is inexcusable given its price and the market saturation of 2 way bookshelf loudspeakers - there's just too many other options!
I assumed the LS50's were smaller than the competition, like nothing smaller sounds better.

But I hadn't checked spec's.

I know Steve ... Middle aged, Maryland Steve, has wrangled a custom xo out of DM for that speaker. I wonder what he has to say and I wonder about the before and after FR of said endeavor.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Not a fair analogy?

"Among the music I listened to, with the exception of the air in female voices, ride cymbal, glockenspiel, brushes, and triangle, the KEF presented sounds with a breath-taking clarity that is a solid benchmark in its price class.
I like a lot about the ls50's and fully understand why they are so well liked.
I know I like a forward rather than laid-back speaker, so that is definitely part of the equation.
Furthermore, if I could not instantly switch between speakers in the middle of a note, I'm not sure how much I would notice these differences.
I believe Steely Dan, Yes, and Pink Floyd would all present perfectly well on the KEF without the instant comparison.
It is the "night club" female vocals (Norah Jones and Emillie Claire Barlow) and the Chet Atkins tune where I believe I would still sense a difference given a 2 minute delay between listening to one speaker or the other.
Listening to the big band, now that I know to listen for the ride cymbal, I would notice, but otherwise, I doubt I would pick it out as an issue without the instant comparison. I don't think I would notice the glockenspiel differences were it not for the instant comparison. It sounded great on the KEF!
What I am hedging at is, I think that for many types of music, the KEFs give up nothing."


They sound great, as long as you don't listen to anything else?

I agree and have stated I think these sound great, except in the whole octave where they don't. Clearly some people aren't bothered by it, and more power to them! But as others have chimed in having similar discontent at the same frequencies, I don't think these measurements or the fact that you have even returned these speakers two or three times now, should be so easily dismissed.

To me, this audible and measurable flaw is inexcusable given its price and the market saturation of 2 way bookshelf loudspeakers - there's just too many other options!
Everything does not need to be in black and white. By all measurements loudspeakers are going to sound different such that everyone will have their own preference. You seem fixated on the 2 kHz resonance that is just a claim, so are only mentioned and supported by 2 people on this thread. I am not sure if you interpret the NRC graphs correctly but to me the LS50's graphs look prettier than many other speakers measured by the NRC. I suppose if Dr. Toole said the LS50s are bad, they will sound bad to you, nothing wrong with that...:D:D
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Everything does not need to be in black and white. By all measurements loudspeakers are going to sound different such that everyone will have their own preference. You seem fixated on the 2 kHz resonance that is just a claim, so are only mentioned and supported by 2 people on this thread. I am not sure if you interpret the NRC graphs correctly but to me the LS50's graphs look prettier than many other speakers measured by the NRC. I suppose if Dr. Toole said the LS50s are bad, they will sound bad to you, nothing wrong with that...:D:D
No sir, I only said Floyd pointed me to the graphs, after I asked him what could be causing the issue I was hearing.

This thread is asking for thoughts on the LS50. I cited those measurements as they explain what others are hearing, too.

Remember, Floyd and his team correlated anechoic measurements to subjective preference. I and several other people have heard the measurable issue of this speaker, so I think that is a very relevant fact for the OP to consider.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Remember, Floyd and his team correlated anechoic measurements to subjective preference. I and several other people have heard the measurable issue of this speaker, so I think that is a very relevant fact for the OP to consider.
I had a quick discussion with Dr. Toole about ls50 and NRC measurements. He thought that NRC measurements were not sufficient to predict ls50 quality. We would need the complete set of Spinorama measurementS to do that. Just an FYI.

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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I had a quick discussion with Dr. Toole about ls50 and NRC measurements. He thought that NRC measurements were not sufficient to predict ls50 quality. We would need the complete set of Spinorama measurementS to do that. Just an FYI.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Absolutely! But I am not predicting anything, I am using third party measurements to explain something I and others have heard.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I had a quick discussion with Dr. Toole about ls50 and NRC measurements. He thought that NRC measurements were not sufficient to predict ls50 quality. We would need the complete set of Spinorama measurementS to do that. Just an FYI.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Thank you, I didn't want to say it but I only posted (#49) the way I did after Dennis Murphy mentioned something similar.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Absolutely! But I am not predicting anything, I am using third party measurements to explain something I and others have heard.
Okay sir, I thought you cited the NRC measurements. As to what you heard, I have no argument whatsoever, that's subjective anyway.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Absolutely! But I am not predicting anything, I am using third party measurements to explain something I and others have heard.
Yes. I agree. But you MAY be too focused on one area (FR) and using it to explain what you may be hearing or the quality of a speaker.

As Dr. Toole mentioned once, every speaker is a compromise of numerous factors. Some are focused and bothered by one short coming while others are focused on others. That is why we all like different speakers.

But thanks to you , Kew, Peng and others, I do learn a lot

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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I assumed the LS50's were smaller than the competition, like nothing smaller sounds better.
Floyd covered that as well with sighted vs. blind comparisons. People saw a small sub/sat system and rated it poorly. Repeating the test, blind, had that small sub/sat system competing with products much more expensive.

With KEW, I compared the LS50 to Dennis Murphy's AA Monitor and with a lot of music, I preferred the AA. My sighted bias was knowing the extraordinary price difference between those products. In switching between the two speakers, I just didn't feel the KEF's justified a 7x price increase - which is apparently a very unpopular opinion.
 
STRONGBADF1

STRONGBADF1

Audioholic Spartan
I assumed the LS50's were smaller than the competition, like nothing smaller sounds better.

But I hadn't checked spec's.

I know Steve ... Middle aged, Maryland Steve, has wrangled a custom xo out of DM for that speaker. I wonder what he has to say and I wonder about the before and after FR of said endeavor.

MAMS... Got it.;)

@Steve81
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Floyd covered that as well with sighted vs. blind comparisons. People saw a small sub/sat system and rated it poorly. Repeating the test, blind, had that small sub/sat system competing with products much more expensive.

With KEW, I compared the LS50 to Dennis Murphy's AA Monitor and with a lot of music, I preferred the AA. My sighted bias was knowing the extraordinary price difference between those products. In switching between the two speakers, I just didn't feel the KEF's justified a 7x price increase - which is apparently a very unpopular opinion.
Thanks. On a sightly different subject, do you know of any other researcher who has been able to duplicate spinorama's ability to predict consumer preference?

Is the algorithm to convert Spinorama to consumer quality score available to other researchers to use and validate results?

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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks. On a sightly different subject, do you know of any other researcher who has been able to duplicate spinorama's ability to predict consumer preference?

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Only those employed by Harman. It is a unique advantage to have a facility with which to orchestrate near instantaneous, level matched comparison.

The speaker shuffler is a really cool system. 4 speakers are set up for blind monophonic comparison on a hydraulic rig. The touch of an iPad cycles between each of the speakers in just a few seconds while loops of spectrally complex music are played. You rate your preference and the test starts over with new music and a numerical code for each speaker.

If you search the Harman How to Listen program, it is (for me) a fun tool to train your ears to separate the sounds of different frequencies in music samples. It is relevant to the discussion of the LS50 as the program helps to train prospective test subjects to listen for the absence or abundance of sounds and different frequencies with ever increasing resolution.
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Only those employed by Harman. It is a unique advantage to have a facility with which to orchestrate near instantaneous, level matched comparison.

The speaker shuffler is a really cool system. 4 speakers are set up for blind monophonic comparison on a hydraulic rig. The touch of an iPad cycles between each of the speakers in just a few seconds while loops of spectrally complex music are played. You rate your preference and the test starts over with new music and a numerical code for each speaker.

If you search the Harman How to Listen program, it is (for me) a fun tool to train your ears to separate the sounds of different frequencies in music samples. It is relevant to the discussion of the LS50 as the program helps to train prospective test subjects to listen for the absence or abundance of sounds and different frequencies with ever increasing resolution.
Is the algorithm (that converts Spinorama data to speaker quality score ) at least available to others so that they can try to validate the research with other speakers? I have not seen it.

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