Immigration, or illegal entry?

[Johnd]

Speak for yourself.

An immigrant is, by definition, a human being who goes to live in a country that he was not born in:

immigrant
n : a person who comes to a country where they were not born in order to settle there

Well, I'm fairly well versed in the English language, as well as anthropology. So I stand by my statement that we are all immigrants. Follow this logic:

The first human settled in the America's 30,000 to 40,000 years ago.
The first human was born approximately 5,000,000 years ago.
Please explain how we are all not settlers (immigrants) to the Americas?

 

[jonnythan]

Well, I'm fairly well versed in the English language, as well as anthropology. So I stand by my statement that we are all immigrants. Follow this logic:

The first human settled in the America's 30,000 to 40,000 years ago.
The first human was born approximately 5,000,000 years ago.
Please explain how we are all not settlers (immigrants) to the Americas?

Because I was born in the United States. Therefore I am by definition not an immigrant.

My ancestors may have been, but *I* am not an immigrant.

 

[Johnd]

Understood. So was I, my forebears, their forebears, etc. I guess I was attempting to be a little more philosophic and a little less literal. At the end of the day, or, more accurately, going back to the dawn of time, none of us has more of a right here than anyone else (other than, perhaps, the "illegals"). Cheers.

 

[jonnythan]

Let's not forget that philosophy deeply relies on precision in language and strict rules of logic

 

[Johnd]

...and the ability to have a "fluid" mind in discourse.

 

[Johnd]

Should illegal aliens all be made citizens?

Not by amnesty...at least not by my vote.

 

[gmichael]

I will have to vote nay for the fast track also.
If they want a piece of my heart, they'll have to start from the start.

 

[rr2465]

Whats the solution?

Not by amnesty...at least not by my vote.

I'm not thrilled about amnesty because if you're here illegally you've broken the law. And there are a lot of people playing by the rules and waiting their turn that should rightfully say, "what about us?". But what do you do with all of the illegals already here? I just don't see them all being deported. So whats the solution?

 

[gmichael]

I'm not thrilled about amnesty because if you're here illegally you've broken the law. And there are a lot of people playing by the rules and waiting their turn that should rightfully say, "what about us?". But what do you do with all of the illegals already here? I just don't see them all being deported. So whats the solution?

Semi-amnesty. Don't deport them or lock them up. Call it even or a fair fight. Hand them a pen and the forms to fill out. Start doing it right. Until their visa is approved they should have to check in once a month to someone to make sure they haven't moved. Any of them who are convicted of a crime should be sent home.

 

[rr2465]

Not bad...

Semi-amnesty. Don't deport them or lock them up. Call it even or a fair fight. Hand them a pen and the forms to fill out. Start doing it right. Until their visa is approved they should have to check in once a month to someone to make sure they haven't moved. Any of them who are convicted of a crime should be sent home.

I see where you're going and I think I agree with you for the most part - but its not that simple. Who is going to check on them to see that they haven't moved? What if they do move? Who will decide if they are allowed to stay or not? They're already here, why sign on the dotted line anyway? Who is going to enforce it? Border patrol is already stretched pretty thin. Police (I believe) think its not their job. Maybe it should be.

Will we turn into a police state with cops asking everyone for their passport?Papers please? ...

 

[gmichael]

I see where you're going and I think I agree with you for the most part - but its not that simple. Who is going to check on them to see that they haven't moved? What if they do move? Who will decide if they are allowed to stay or not? They're already here, why sign on the dotted line anyway? Who is going to enforce it? Border patrol is already stretched pretty thin. Police (I believe) think its not their job. Maybe it should be.

Will we turn into a police state with cops asking everyone for their passport?Papers please? ...

It would have to be by volunteer. No other way to enforce it without a ton more police and money spent. But after the offer is put out, anyone who doesn't sign would be considered a criminal. If caught they would be jailed until they could be deported. I know it seems tough, but how much farther can we bend over? Any employer hiring them to save on expenses would need to be treated in a tough manor as well.
There's no perfect answer. No matter what anyone comes up with, others could poke holes in it. But I'm just shooting from the hip. If someone was to sit down and work it out like it was there job to, then I'm sure they'd come up with something at least semi-fair.

 

[rr2465]

Nothing personal

It would have to be by volunteer. No other way to enforce it without a ton more police and money spent. But after the offer is put out, anyone who doesn't sign would be considered a criminal. If caught they would be jailed until they could be deported. I know it seems tough, but how much farther can we bend over? Any employer hiring them to save on expenses would need to be treated in a tough manor as well.
There's no perfect answer. No matter what anyone comes up with, others could poke holes in it. But I'm just shooting from the hip. If someone was to sit down and work it out like it was there job to, then I'm sure they'd come up with something at least semi-fair.

I hope you're not taking what I'm saying personally because I do agree with you.

I just think of the minute men who seem to be doing the volunteer work for the border patrol and the police - enforcing the law. And they are getting slammed as racists etc. Politicians don't want to touch this with a 10 ft pole because of the backlash so there still isn't the needed enforcement of the current law.

Back on topic though, what do the illegals really want? If its an open door to the US I don't think its gonna happen. So we build more walls. And more people die trying to cross the border. Fortunately there is a surplus of jobs that americans don't want to do.

 

[BMO]

Mexicans are taking jobs away from Americans!!!An employer who hires them doesn't have to pay SSI,Work Comp,etc.They can hire 4 of them for what it would cost them to hire 1 american.The american pays taxes up the ***, the Mexican ( most) work for cash.
Many employers don't even want illegals that can speak english. No need for them to converse with english speaking trouble makers.In Calif. if you want to compete in construction, you just about have to hire a bunch of mexicans who you can pay dirt for a wage.It's not that there harder workers, its that they can hire 4 for what they'd have to pay 1 American.If they are harder workers, why not pay them the same.
No need to worry though. In a few years this whole issue will be ancient news as our Government, along with most South and Central America are going to have no borders so everybody can come and go as they please. There will also, when that time comes, be no midldle class.There will be the haves and the have nots.VIVA LA MEXIFORNIA.

 

[Johnd]

Another suggestion is have some of the illegals build a wall, (if not only in Arizona where illegal entry is worst) as recompense for their criminal act.

Another suggestion is to fine all those employers treble damages (ss, fica, ui, etc) for their illegal employment practices.

And yes, have some of the remaining illegals do it the proper way, through INS, with the waiting period that all the legal immigrants have been forced to endure.

As a P.S., I think the march organizers, as well as the marchers have come to realize that while we cherish our freedom (right) to burn our own flag, we frown on any illegals doing it at the very same time they are trying to gain entry into our country, whether that be by legal or illicit means. Since they seem to dislike Mexico so much, I do not understand why they do not burn the Mexican flag. Ill laid plans...

 

[gmichael]

I hope you're not taking what I'm saying personally because I do agree with you.

No worries. I felt nothing personal. Seems like you have fair questions. I wish I had better (more detailed) answers for you. There is much more involved than I what have given thought to.

I just think of the minute men who seem to be doing the volunteer work for the border patrol and the police - enforcing the law. And they are getting slammed as racists etc. Politicians don't want to touch this with a 10 ft pole because of the backlash so there still isn't the needed enforcement of the current law.

There may never be enough. Maybe employ the current illegals as border control? No huh? Well, just a thought. (This has been my twisted thought of the day)

Back on topic though, what do the illegals really want? If its an open door to the US I don't think its gonna happen. So we build more walls. And more people die trying to cross the border. Fortunately there is a surplus of jobs that americans don't want to do.

They want what everyone else wants, more for less. I don't think they'll get it as an open door. And if it did, they would no longer be illegal, and most likely not willing to take those jobs anymore either. How's that for ironic?

I'm sure that they have been treated with disrespect. Under paid, over worked and are mad as h.ll about it. They've been here long enough to see that others here have a better life. They want their piece of the pie. No faults there. But they still need to follow the rules. Maybe they've been here so long that they have forgotten that they are breaking those rules. Maybe they have forgotten how bad it was where they came from. I'm sure they thought it was great here when they first showed up. But the memory has faded with time.

My wife is making her first trip back home sinse she got here in 2002. )Just got her green card. Can't leave & come back without it.) I am looking forward to hearing from her about the things she forgot. She's packing all her good shoes. I guess she doesn't remember all the mudd that makes up her sister's walkway. How she'll have to jump from rock to wobbly rock to get in. How her old bed was a piece of plywood over 4 cinder blocks and a sheet thrown over. Things she never gave a second thought of. But I remember because I was shocked to see so much of it. The lizards climbing the walls. And all the bugs. She won't even pet our cat now cause she "don't want flees." Ha! Wait till she gets back. No electricity? No running water?
It's easy to forget what you took for granted.

 

[sjdgpt]

Harsh solutions

Wanna keep them out?

Shot them.

Shot to kill.

Not all of them.

Just the first 3 or so.

And make the policy known. The first 3 illegals will be shot and killed. The rest will be allowed to enter without restrictions.

And then stand at the board and wave your gun daring the first 3 to step across the border.


Illegal immigration would suddenly stop.

Or would it?

I suspect there are people so desperate to enter the good ole USA that they would sacrifice 3 or more people for the greater good of their friends and relatives.

And if people are that desperate to enter the USA, no board patrol (fence, land mines or whatever) will ever be adaquate to stop the flow.


So what is the next step? Deport those businesses and individuals that hire illegals. Not a meager fine that can be paid off with some corporate proceeds and deducted off the taxes. Not a cozy cell for you and 5 of your best bull queer buds. Just kick your butt out of here and let you try to survive in some scrub-brush desert making $1.25 per week.

Shooting the illegals may not work, but I suspect each and every one of us would have second thoughts about hiring our next illegal if we knew we risked the dangers of being deported ourselves.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I was listening to NPR the other day and a local farmer was complaining that he won't be able to survive if illegal aliens aren't available to work on his farm.

Whether true or not, the interesting thing is that he pays his workers almost $10/hr.

That's more than a lot of people around here are making. I don't know whether it's a living wage or not, but it's a heck of a lot better than working for Walmart. (I think they're only paying $6-7/hr.)

I wouldn't compare a WalMart job equivalent to working on a farm. I think it is much more physical on a farm, out in the environment, rain or shine, deep in mud to your knees, at times, But, hey, I haven't worked on a farm but have seen what they do, from the highways.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mexicans are taking jobs away from Americans!!!.

Let's not forget all the other illegals who do as well. Just the other day, the TV interviewed an Irish man who had a visa and didn't bother to go home when it expired. Now he is crying that we want to send him home.

 

[mtrycrafts]

How do we ever justify the mass amnesty of 5, 10 or 12 million "illegals" to those that have immigrated here legally over these past 100+ years?

It was over 3 million 20 years ago. Today it will be 20 million. No one knows how many, guessing games. How would they know? Anyone made a headcount?
How many the next time as it will continue, 40 million? I don't see a backbone in congress to close the border.

 

[mtrycrafts]

. Why do we get the shaft?

Unquote me

Because we are apologizing to the world for being free and successful.
Why isn't China this successful? They have been around just a few years longer, Or Russia with their vast resources?